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Post by wiz on Dec 19, 2019 20:25:10 GMT -6
I have bought a Roland TD17KVX and Superior Drummer 3 after some discussion with ragan and borrowing a TD25 from a friend and making sure it would all work. I did an Album back in around 2007 with drummer in Texas (I am in Australia) using Superior Drummer 2, and it was a bloody night mare. So for the next 12 years I used real drums. I was looking to change up the way I work, due to some recent technological innovations around recording free time audio, creating tempo maps and recording against those, which again in the past was a nightmare. I borrowed a friends Roland TD25 and bought a copy of Superior Drummer 3 after discussing it with ragan who was using the same set up, thanks for the help. I got it to all work. Which stunned me.... Here is the first tune I have done with it. Using the Roland TD17KVX and Superior Drummer 3 I tracked the vocal and the acoustic guitar on the LHS at the same time, using a fig 8 U87 on the vocal and a NTR Ribbon (Fig 8) on the Taylor GS mini mahogany. Then I created a tempo map from the guitar track in Logic (basically a couple of mouse clicks) and then recorded the drums, using the preset "Seventy Seven" in SD3. Then I plugged in my variax with a midi pickup on it, and recorded the bass line, using IK multimedias MODO BASS. Then the 6 string banjo, and resonator slide got added, then a vocal harmony. The drums and the bass have no plug ins on them. The vocal , guitars go out through my Soundcraft Delta board and have board EQ and compressors inserted on them. Each track gets Bricasti "Waits Room" The vocals and slide get Valhalla Plate verb and thats it. Now there are a couple of wrinkles I will iron out, like the tempo varies too much from start to finish in this tune (but then again the stones did that LOL..... ) But basically its a very quick easy, not get in the way of the performance way for me to work... and playing and singing at the same time is a huge bonus for me rather than trying to overdub later. The song is at the link below Trouble and StrifeLet me know what you think Cheers Wiz
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Post by wiz on Dec 19, 2019 20:25:46 GMT -6
I have actually committed to the above setup , and sold (selling) my drum kit ......
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Post by drbill on Dec 19, 2019 20:53:08 GMT -6
Wiz - can you direct us to a link one of your previous songs that have the real drum kit, etc. on it. I could search around, but..... . Something similar would be great. I've got some comments, but really want an A/B before opening my big mouth. LOL Thx if you're got time to do that.
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Post by indiehouse on Dec 19, 2019 20:53:12 GMT -6
The TD17 and TD25 were the two models I was looking at. What made you go with the 17? What does the 17 lack compared to the 25? I am pretty clueless about e drums.
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Post by tasteliketape on Dec 19, 2019 20:57:37 GMT -6
Nice song wiz , as always. Since I don’t know anything about electronic drum kits do you get separate tracks, snare kik etc ? I would assume by midi? Anyway sounds great .
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Post by gwlee7 on Dec 19, 2019 21:02:52 GMT -6
I think it sounds really good. I like the song itself a lot. Catchy.
I don’t know enough about the engineering part to be much help there as I am not very experienced in that respect.
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Post by wiz on Dec 19, 2019 21:07:53 GMT -6
Wiz - can you direct us to a link one of your previous songs that have the real drum kit, etc. on it. I could search around, but..... . Something similar would be great. I've got some comments, but really want an A/B before opening my big mouth. LOL Thx if you're got time to do that. Any of the tunes on my website in my signature...... cheers Wiz
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Post by wiz on Dec 19, 2019 21:08:58 GMT -6
The TD17 and TD25 were the two models I was looking at. What made you go with the 17? What does the 17 lack compared to the 25? I am pretty clueless about e drums. TD17 is a generation later...has bigger snare....was cheaper...newer hi hat thingy..
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Post by wiz on Dec 19, 2019 21:10:07 GMT -6
Nice song wiz , as always. Since I don’t know anything about electronic drum kits do you get separate tracks, snare kik etc ? I would assume by midi? Anyway sounds great . Thanks for checking it out. As the sounds come from Superior you can set it up as multiple out...this example is just a stereo track yes midi. cheers Wiz
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Post by wiz on Dec 19, 2019 21:10:37 GMT -6
I think it sounds really good. I like the song itself a lot. Catchy. I don’t know enough about the engineering part to be much help there as I am not very experienced in that respect. Thanks for listening and taking the time to comment. cheers Wiz
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Post by Blackdawg on Dec 19, 2019 22:45:36 GMT -6
It sounds good but...to....idk...like..machined?? Robotic kind of?? Its too square. The consistency gives it away.
That stuff with Pete Knight on your site sounds just...real. And also good. What about those drums don't you like?
Sorry. Just my thoughts! Either way works!
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Post by ragan on Dec 19, 2019 23:28:08 GMT -6
wiz I think one thing at play is that everyone listening has been told that you just switched to V Drums/SD3 and so we're all listening for 'fakeness'. I think if you hadn't said anything and just posted it as a song no one would have said anything about the drums. I think they sound nice. I think the cymbals are a little quiet and unattached to the kit and that you should try pulling up a bit more close ambience (not sure what sounds you're using but the kick sounds like Massenburg so I assume it's stock SD3 sounds). Where are your bleeds set? I find that keeping the bleed at full/100% on each mic really helps with 'realness' (cause these are in fact real, recorded drums). I think the only thing I'd change is the cymbals getting some more assertiveness and the kit sounding less separate, piece-by-piece.
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Post by wiz on Dec 19, 2019 23:42:07 GMT -6
It sounds good but...to....idk...like..machined?? Robotic kind of?? Its too square. The consistency gives it away. That stuff with Pete Knight on your site sounds just...real. And also good. What about those drums don't you like? Sorry. Just my thoughts! Either way works! thanks for listening, and the constructive criticism. Well, the good thing is they are midi so things aren't etched in stone... no doubt I will get better at it as I go There is nothing wrong with my old drum sounds, spent years learning to do that, play and mix. But it sure was hard work, hopefully this will be more creative and enjoyable. cheers Wiz
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Post by wiz on Dec 19, 2019 23:43:41 GMT -6
wiz I think one thing at play is that everyone listening has been told that you just switched to V Drums/SD3 and so we're all listening for 'fakeness'. I think if you hadn't said anything and just posted it as a song no one would have said anything about the drums. I think they sound nice. I think the cymbals are a little quiet and unattached to the kit and that you should try pulling up a bit more close ambience (not sure what sounds you're using but the kick sounds like Massenburg so I assume it's stock SD3 sounds). Where are your bleeds set? I find that keeping the bleed at full/100% on each mic really helps with 'realness' (cause these are in fact real, recorded drums). I think the only thing I'd change is the cymbals getting some more assertiveness and the kit sounding less separate, piece-by-piece. Hey bud thanks for listening. The bleeds are set whatever the preset had them at. Look at the Seventy Seven kit preset. Will try and work out how to do what you suggest, thanks Cheers Wiz
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Post by ragan on Dec 19, 2019 23:46:49 GMT -6
wiz I think one thing at play is that everyone listening has been told that you just switched to V Drums/SD3 and so we're all listening for 'fakeness'. I think if you hadn't said anything and just posted it as a song no one would have said anything about the drums. I think they sound nice. I think the cymbals are a little quiet and unattached to the kit and that you should try pulling up a bit more close ambience (not sure what sounds you're using but the kick sounds like Massenburg so I assume it's stock SD3 sounds). Where are your bleeds set? I find that keeping the bleed at full/100% on each mic really helps with 'realness' (cause these are in fact real, recorded drums). I think the only thing I'd change is the cymbals getting some more assertiveness and the kit sounding less separate, piece-by-piece. Hey bud thanks for listening. The bleeds are set whatever the preset had them at. Look at the Seventy Seven kit preset. Will try and work out how to do what you suggest, thanks Cheers Wiz Gotcha. Above each channel is a bleed knob. Turn it all the way clockwise and it's the natural bleed from the way the drums were tracked. I'll be looking at SD3 in a few minutes and verify that's correct.
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Post by wiz on Dec 20, 2019 0:48:37 GMT -6
Hey bud thanks for listening. The bleeds are set whatever the preset had them at. Look at the Seventy Seven kit preset. Will try and work out how to do what you suggest, thanks Cheers Wiz Gotcha. Above each channel is a bleed knob. Turn it all the way clockwise and it's the natural bleed from the way the drums were tracked. I'll be looking at SD3 in a few minutes and verify that's correct. I was wondering how to adjust the volumes of the individual cymbals in the OHeads, just found it... thanks for the heads up. Cheers Wiz
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Post by ragan on Dec 20, 2019 0:58:33 GMT -6
Gotcha. Above each channel is a bleed knob. Turn it all the way clockwise and it's the natural bleed from the way the drums were tracked. I'll be looking at SD3 in a few minutes and verify that's correct. I was wondering how to adjust the volumes of the individual cymbals in the OHeads, just found it... thanks for the heads up. Cheers Wiz Oh...yeah. That's the key to the kingdom! Select any mic in the mixer window and over on the right you can choose what's coming through that mic(s). Then there's the bleed knob at the top of each mic in the mixer.
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 20, 2019 2:43:55 GMT -6
I’ll make a contextual comment, and ask you, was it fun and did it engage you to be musical, engineer and produce ?
For a number of months, you have been describing revisiting a great deal of your previous set up and process, so you were looking for change, improvement: something different ?
So, the question is expanded with do you feel like you found what you were looking for, it seems it ?
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Post by sirthought on Dec 20, 2019 2:48:31 GMT -6
Hey wiz, I really enjoyed your voice and the song overall. Your voice actually reminds me a bit of the only Australian "roots" performer I've really paid attention to, Archie Roach. I think the strategy with the drums is fine. The sound probably needs mixing a bit and you'll get the hang of the software. But the overall idea is modern technology working for you well. People always say they want mic'd drums—and I certainly think that is a great thing to do—but then most of the educational mixing videos the engineer is always doing sample replacement and making hybrid sounds with lots of plugins. In the end, I don't see how different this will be, especially if you are able to play parts when you want.
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Post by levon on Dec 20, 2019 3:36:21 GMT -6
I have completely gone away from Superior Drummer and only use real drums now. SD sounds too good, too clinical, too polished compared to real drums, especially those recorded in a (my) less that ideal environment. And that would be my only complaint with this song. As Blackdawg said, the drums sound a bit robotic.
That said, I love Wiz' voice and songs, just beautiful, as usual...
And - whatever works for you is good!
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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 20, 2019 7:59:13 GMT -6
Has anybody tried a hybrid setup of using the superior drums but then Micing up cymbals at the same time? Cymbal articulation is one thing that always leaves me scratching my head with superior and the like. Same with ghost notes on the snare but lots of folks don’t even play that inside sort of stuff.
Wiz, I just realized your voice is a total doppelgänger for Ed Roland of Collective Soul. I did some tunes with them last year and in his softer range your voices are dead on the same damn thing. Sounds great man.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,012
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Post by ericn on Dec 20, 2019 9:55:02 GMT -6
Since, in these days “ real drums” means edited till death, a bunch of replacements anyway I don’t here much difference in using a drum machine. If it allows you to work more comfortable go for it! Besides I think at this point what most would consider the most unrealistic e drum tones are considered classic at this point.
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Post by drbill on Dec 20, 2019 11:05:09 GMT -6
Wiz - can you direct us to a link one of your previous songs that have the real drum kit, etc. on it. I could search around, but..... . Something similar would be great. I've got some comments, but really want an A/B before opening my big mouth. LOL Thx if you're got time to do that. Any of the tunes on my website in my signature...... cheers Wiz Hi Wiz! OK. Had a chance to listen to a few of your tunes on Spotify. First - you're a great songwriter and distinctive vocalist, and that is the most important thing. After that, pretty much anything can work. I had an initial impression the other day when listening to Trouble and Strife. But I wanted to compare it to your past stuff to make sure it wasn't just a random feeling. Listening to Nero and the Joker, Circle of Light, There Must Be More and a couple of other tunes confirmed it for me. What I am feeling in Trouble is something that I fight pretty much every day of my life. It's an ongoing battle in a digital world, DAWS, samples, and the like. I wish I could quantify it and wrap it up all neat and tidy and have a simple definition with a finite solution, but alas, it's a moving target, and it's not easy to pin down. Even more so, tons of people can't hear what naggingly drives me crazy at times. So...that said..... I think Trouble definitely feels 2D against the above mentioned songs. I could instantly tell that the drums are digital, and don't have a blanket of "air" surrounding them. I understand that this is your first run out of the gate with new gear, and that the song plays into it as well, and that maybe it's not perfectly mixed just yet. But all that said, it doesn't hold up to your previous recordings. I'm sure you will get closer and closer, but I'm not sure you'll ever be able to capture what your real gear and microphones captured. I know this is not what you want to hear, but it's how it comes off to me. That's not to say it's bad and sucks - it's just that it doesn't have the life and vibrancy and the "air" surrounding it that your other recordings do. What I'm talking about will not be "heard" by many, and I admit it's just a few percentage points off, but it matters - almost compulsively - to me in my productions. Enough so that I earn less, and work harder to finish music. I dunno, maybe I'm crazy. Like I said, I fight it at every juncture every day, because doing what I do requires samples, sometimes loops, synths, samplers, midi, etc.. And fight it I do....with a passion. Which is why I'm probably more sensitive about it than the average listener. I come from a time where musicians all got in the same room to make music - together. There is something magical about that. And I find that every time I put up a mic instead of using a "better sounding" sample, some of that humanity and life comes back into the music. And that's a PitA. It slows me down, it makes me work harder, it pushes me musically - cause I don't really play guitars or drums or bass. But when I make the effort - I'm almost always rewarded. Upon solo-ing a track in my compositions, the sample almost always sounds "better" to the untrained ear. But the humanity and organic performance of a real mic-d instrument almost always comes through. It may often sound "worse" or "less perfect" in isolation, but in the mix it brings back the organic / human feel that I am after. If you were doing dubstep, my observation would be 100% different, but you're not.... And your music calls out for that humanity and organic feel that microphones in a room bring. That's my take on it. Take it or leave it. I'd keep the real instruments until you have longer to live with the digital stuff. Cheers, bp PS - listening in the studio - not on my laptop - on Grace D/A, and JBL 708P's. Trouble is WAV, and the others are Spotify compressed audio so.....I don't think it's the audio files that I'm reacting to.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 20, 2019 11:14:09 GMT -6
Love it wiz. I bet that the bleed control that ragan is mentioning will bring some added realness and depth. I'd probably add a bit of ambience to the drums too, but I bet that once you go through the steps of actually mixing, it would be great. I bet it'll be a huge workflow improvement for getting the drums and bass where you want them performance wise too and allow you to spend more time working on the vocals and guitars that you're more passionate about. Great stuff, as always.
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Post by ragan on Dec 20, 2019 11:53:48 GMT -6
You can absolutely make V Drums/SD3 tracks that are every bit as “real” and organic sounding as any mic’d kit. It’s just its own skill.
These are, after all, just recorded kits. You just have to learn how to play/tweak/mix in this paradigm. Wiz is already off to a good start and I don’t think it’ll take very long at all before he’s surpassing his mic’d kit stuff (which I love too).
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