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Post by johneppstein on Nov 5, 2019 18:33:54 GMT -6
Rarely does a classic recording you like have a situation where the guitarist is also a writer. engineer, producer and and vocalist. Most times each person had to concentrate on their specialty. Sure there are exceptions like Prince, but it's exactly that, an exception. So, by trying to do it all, we don't have time to refine each skill to the level it might reach if we weren't busy doing other things. It's just the way it is. All too often, I live with my experimental first takes. There's usually enough to work with and I haven't time to redo it because I have dozens of other things to do. I tell myself it's OK. I rationalize by thinking well, the Stones' records I love have plenty of imperfections, but in truth, I'd prefer to have a real engineer and producer doing their jobs while I do mine. Yeah. I have decades as an engineer - mostly live - but when I'm being an artist - which is most of the time in recent years - I definitely prefer to leave the bulk of the engineering to someone else.
The two hats don't easily fit on the head at the same time.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 5, 2019 18:39:03 GMT -6
Also think the question in 2019 is:what is the end goal? What is attainable? Yeah. I don't even know if anything is attainable anymore, especially for one who is not young and pretty.
I just do it because it's what I do. What's the alternative - watching TV?
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Post by shoe on Nov 5, 2019 18:54:17 GMT -6
I'm not familiar with this specific test but the descriptions I've read seem pretty accurate to my personality. I also have the same sorts of issues everyone's talking about here. After I'm done mixing a song I often have no idea if it's even a good song anymore. Of course people usually tend to like them, so that helps, lol.
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Post by chessparov on Nov 5, 2019 19:12:14 GMT -6
This thread couldn't be more timely for me. Finally finished the 5 verses, and main chorus... For that "fun" single (Mangle With Care:)) All my vocals are "usable", but over time I could nail everything MUCH better. I did limit myself to 6 takes per verse, and actually "comped" each verse separately. Which was really weird for me. (I normally sing straight through) But the tessitura was very high-real Tenor, and I had to choose between being technically very accurate, or going for the "emotion". Will be going back and doing more vocal drills, as a result. Chris
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Post by jampa on Nov 5, 2019 19:38:18 GMT -6
Someone mentioned imposter syndrome - that's exactly what came to my mind.
Occasionally when I listen back to old work it's better than I remembered it to be. Other times people have asked me about this or that album and I said what I would have done differently, and I realised I'm destroying some of the magic of their experience. I don't do that anymore but highlight the good times we had making them, which I miss.
We tend to be our own worst critics. I don't think it gets easier but your work gets better and you can always remind yourself "I will be my own worst critic here", so that helps.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 5, 2019 19:41:33 GMT -6
I'm not familiar with this specific test but the descriptions I've read seem pretty accurate to my personality. I also have the same sorts of issues everyone's talking about here. After I'm done mixing a song I often have no idea if it's even a good song anymore. Of course people usually tend to like them, so that helps, lol. You're my long lost brother... www.enneagraminstitute.com/type-4/Kind of frightening
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 5, 2019 19:44:21 GMT -6
This was called "Personal Growth Recommendations" for a Type 4 (my type)...but they are probably good advice for everyone...
Do not pay so much attention to your feelings; they are not a true source of support for you, as you probably already know. Remember this advice: "From our present perspective, we can also see that one of the most important mistakes Fours make is to equate themselves with their feelings. The fallacy is that to understand themselves they must understand their feelings, particularly their negative ones, before acting. Fours do not see that the self is not the same as its feelings or that the presence of negative feelings does not preclude the presence of good in themselves" (Personality Types, p. 172). Always remember that your feelings are telling you something about yourself as you are at this particular moment, not necessarily more than that. Avoid putting off things until you are "in the right mood." Commit yourself to productive, meaningful work that will contribute to your good and that of others, no matter how small the contribution may be. Working consistently in the real world will create a context in which you can discover yourself and your talents. (Actually, you are happiest when you are working—that is, activating your potentials and realizing yourself. You will not "find yourself" in a vacuum or while waiting for inspiration to strike, so connect—and stay connected—with the real world. Self-esteem and self-confidence will develop only from having positive experiences, whether or not you believe that you are ready to have them. Therefore, put yourself in the way of good. You may never feel that you are ready to take on a challenge of some sort, that you always need more time. (Fours typically never feel that they are sufficiently "together," but they must nevertheless have the courage to stop putting off their lives.) Even if you start small, commit yourself to doing something that will bring out the best in you. A wholesome self-discipline takes many forms, from sleeping regular hours to working regularly to exercising regularly, and has a cumulative, strengthening effect. Since it comes from yourself, a healthy self-discipline is not contrary to your freedom or individuality. On the other hand, sensuality, excessive sexual experiences, alcohol, drugs, sleep, or fantasizing have a debilitating effect on you, as you already know. Therefore, practice healthy self-discipline and stay with it. Avoid lengthy conversations in your imagination, particularly if they are negative, resentful, or even excessively romantic. These conversations are essentially unreal and at best only rehearsals for action—although, as you know, you almost never say or do what you imagine you will. Instead of spending time imagining your life and relationships, begin to live them.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 5, 2019 20:22:43 GMT -6
I thought it was pretty good as such things go, which is not sayin' a hell of a lot.
I don't put a lot of stock in such polls - they always seem to fail to ask the right questions.
P.S. - I hate psychologists. After a considerable experience with them in my youth my general attitude toward them is that they're usually wrong.
And they usually can't see their nose in front of their face.
Still, their "surveys" are kinda fun - if you don't put any stock in them.
A human being is a very complex critter - anybody who thinks that they can be reduced to a list of survey questions is a fool.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 5, 2019 21:23:11 GMT -6
I have a friend with good ears and we exchange critiques on our works in progress. Even when I don't agree, it's still helpful. I solidify my direction or change it for the better. Even having one person to bounce ideas off of feels better than being completely alone. I enjoy working on things myself, but enjoy having contributors just as much.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 5, 2019 21:31:10 GMT -6
OK, I'll play. I got this:
Enneagram Type 3 - The Achiever
Focused on the presentation of success, to attain validation
It seems a bit overboard, but makes some good points. I don't fear intimacy at all, but seriously would like validation of my work. I've had many successes, won some awards, but none were big enough to establish me at the level I wanted. I see validation as songs connecting to a lot of people emotionally, good money and the opportunity to work with musicians and producers whose work I admire.
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 5, 2019 21:43:14 GMT -6
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Post by wiz on Nov 5, 2019 21:48:04 GMT -6
Type 1 here no surprise
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Post by kcatthedog on Nov 6, 2019 3:18:56 GMT -6
The thing I found interesting about this book was when he talked about staying in hat role, when being creative,don’t let the judgemental mindset take over or impede your creativity.
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Post by swurveman on Nov 6, 2019 8:39:17 GMT -6
Yeah I fight this constantly. I can never see myself like someone else sees me...I’m constantly thinking about I’m going to be “found out.” I would love to hand off stuff to other people, I.e. track stuff with other people...but it costs money. I think the only thing you can do is put what you do out there and not absolutely hammer yourself. A big frustration to me has been when writing with co-writers, finishing a tune - then demoing it for free - and there are fucking crickets. Not a thank you, or a “great job” or even a “this sucks.” You get to the point where it’s like what’s the point? It’s a constant struggle. I think the key is just to pick and choose friends wisely and put your nose to the grindstone. But you’re not alone. I am in the process of mixing an album where I wrote 90% of the song, did all the drum programming, bass playing and most of the guitar work and am now mastering the album. I asked the guy I'm collaborating with, which is stretching it because he's done very little in the big scheme of things- to redo one lead guitar part he did, which was sloppy. He told me he wouldn't because the "feel" was right. I couldn't fucking believe it. It's so off that I'm going to have to tell him I won't release it. He was a good catalyst, but these kinds of things just piss me off.
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Post by chessparov on Nov 6, 2019 8:59:27 GMT -6
Sorry to hear this. But I hope he'll show more respect, towards this situation. Chris
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Post by swurveman on Nov 6, 2019 9:21:27 GMT -6
Thanks man. Since I won't be doing any more work with him, I'll probably just let it go. I tend to avoid conflict when I've made up my mind that a working relationship is over.
Unfortunately, it soured the end of the project. I'll just tell him to release it on his next project, if he can find someone else to do all the heavy lifting again.
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Post by svart on Nov 6, 2019 10:09:12 GMT -6
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Post by Guitar on Nov 6, 2019 10:51:26 GMT -6
I experience this continually.... as a one man show. I have found certain workarounds that work for me.....in fact I was just thinking about doing a video about this stuff, but figured no one would really be interested. cheers Wiz I bet it would get a lot of views. I swear I think there’s a market for mental health, self help for those of us in this business. I’m just too lazy to pursue it. Graham at Recording Revolution does an excellent job of this kind of content. Mixerman recently as well. He has a new book out this past year. If you can find interviews with Michael Beinhorn he is also a brilliant thinker. Produce Like A Pro episodes I would consider essential watching. To me, this kind of content is about 5,003453,2300% more valuable than your average "compress a snare drum for 10 minutes" kind of content or whatever. I'd like to see more of it.
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Post by Guitar on Nov 6, 2019 11:14:18 GMT -6
Working with other people can be just as much bad as good, as in the recent posts. You always learn something but the results may not always be up to par. That is if you have any sort of talent or taste to start with. I have very little respect for bad decisions and poor taste. In fact, when something sucks, it kind of makes me angry. Play with people better than yourself. That's great advice but hard to actually come by, since everybody wants to do their own thing now and put their own name on all of it. I have learned a ton from being in bands, and have worked with a lot of people better than myself, but there is a time and a place for going solo. No excuses, no compromises, is the main benefit. Working in a group has a better chance of reaching releasable material, but there is also the very real risk of people dropping the ball and being so unreliable that nothing ever happens, or only starts and never finishes. Working alone you can blame yourself, or rely on yourself. Your choice. Neither one is easier or harder. If you happen to be the person with the work ethic, do not surround yourself with people that don't have any. If someone with talent AND work ethic approaches you, there is your unicorn.
My advice: Finish something. Put a stamp on it, send it out in the weekly post, get some feedback and start something else. This will teach you "how to finish things." Which is a big skill lacking in a lot of DIY 1 person music making. I got some hard advice from a friend that put me on the right path. I was trying to dump single tracks and "EPs" all over the streaming services and he firmly told me, tighten up your shit and put out one good album with 10 songs. It's hard these days since a lot of people don't listen. But I still feel like it is worth it to work with an album mindset. It provides a bookend and a template for developing a style and a sound, rather than being all over the map. It forces you to be consistent.
The first one I did was painful, the next one felt much more free and easy, now I'm thinking about what the third one can be, getting more ambitious. The EP's I started with experimentally have mostly been "un-published." Which is a strange benefit of having a tiny audience, haha!
No, the drumming, keys and bass are not as good as what some of the other people I know can do. But I love learning these new instruments and they do improve over time. Having played with great players gives a benchmark to chase after. Knowing what's bad and what's good is a great motivator. Playing with people that can't tell the difference is suicide.
Music is a lot harder to be good at than is commonly accepted. The Dunning-Kruger effect is a very real phenomenon when it comes to basic musical competency, songwriting, and etc.
I'm sure living in Nasheville sets the bar pretty high. Living in Asheville the bar is quite a bit lower. But there is still a value in putting an ear to the community output.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 6, 2019 11:22:35 GMT -6
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Post by sirthought on Nov 6, 2019 15:57:47 GMT -6
Type 4w3 here. My third possibility was an 8.
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Post by chessparov on Nov 6, 2019 22:43:12 GMT -6
I'll try that test sometime, after my workload diminishes a bit.
BTW I was sent an MP3 of that vocal I mentioned earlier, it actually sounds somewhat better to me now-after the heat of battle. I'm kind of excited and looking forward to getting the WAV file sent to me, within the next couple of days.
What was cool is that some other songs, that have been challenging for me to sing effectively... Like "My Girl" sung by The Tempts and David Ruffin on lead-Got a lot easier to do well, as a result of having to work so hard on this one high keyed (for me) song. Chris
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 6, 2019 23:39:46 GMT -6
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Post by gwlee7 on Nov 7, 2019 20:28:02 GMT -6
I believe I have talent. What I lack is ambition.
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