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Post by mrholmes on Nov 5, 2019 6:22:47 GMT -6
I am on the exact border:
I can remember working with humans together in the studio and sometimes it still happens but over all economics and the modern workflow forces me to be 90% of the time alone @ work.
The headline says it all but I have this quite often and there is no one in the studio who can change my perspective saying: HEY its alright we leave it like it is.
For example, I lay down a guitar solo and I start to think:
"Oh man that is not good enough, the second note is a bit off in the beginning etc."
Once the inner critic is running I get the feeling I can't play guitar at all... All the facts speak against it, yes everybody can have a bad day....
Sometimes it goes that far, that I declined jobs and said "no I can't do it I am in bad mood".
True meaning in my soul.... I am not good enough.
Crazy...just because of the last job where one or two notes were not phrased nice enough 
Sometimes I listen to the songs months later -
All sounds fine; the two notes a bit off ... who cars. Idea was to sound a bit like Pat in the 90s - even that worked fine.
But in the heat of the moment I often critic my work in the ground.
We have some very experienced producers on this board.... A hint is welcome... or it would also help to hear if other people have this as well....
Cheers.
A.
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Post by swurveman on Nov 5, 2019 7:45:34 GMT -6
Rising to the pro level as a musician, recording engineer, mixing engineer and mastering engineer is a tall task. I think a lot of people are dissatisfied at one or more levels of the modern home studio. It is convenient, but it is very hard to do it all well.
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Post by svart on Nov 5, 2019 8:34:12 GMT -6
I personally have 50GB+ of song ideas, riffs, etc, that I never go back to because my moods and (dis)likes change daily.
All I can say is that keep doing it, but having at least one other person to work with is key. Even things that I disliked sounded better when someone else added their ideas to them.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 5, 2019 8:49:27 GMT -6
Rarely does a classic recording you like have a situation where the guitarist is also a writer. engineer, producer and and vocalist. Most times each person had to concentrate on their specialty. Sure there are exceptions like Prince, but it's exactly that, an exception. So, by trying to do it all, we don't have time to refine each skill to the level it might reach if we weren't busy doing other things. It's just the way it is.
All too often, I live with my experimental first takes. There's usually enough to work with and I haven't time to redo it because I have dozens of other things to do. I tell myself it's OK. I rationalize by thinking well, the Stones' records I love have plenty of imperfections, but in truth, I'd prefer to have a real engineer and producer doing their jobs while I do mine.
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 5, 2019 8:57:48 GMT -6
Rising to the pro level as a musician, recording engineer, mixing engineer and mastering engineer is a tall task. I think a lot of people are dissatisfied at one or more levels of the modern home studio. It is convenient, but it is very hard to do it all well.
That's what I feel sometimes too. But making it cheaper and cheaper destroyed the whole process - having many people involved; which leads to the better record/songs - IMO.
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Post by Omicron9 on Nov 5, 2019 9:02:44 GMT -6
I personally have 50GB+ of song ideas, riffs, etc, that I never go back to because my moods and (dis)likes change daily. All I can say is that keep doing it, but having at least one other person to work with is key. Even things that I disliked sounded better when someone else added their ideas to them. ^^^ This. |
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Post by swurveman on Nov 5, 2019 9:22:38 GMT -6
I personally have 50GB+ of song ideas, riffs, etc, that I never go back to because my moods and (dis)likes change daily. All I can say is that keep doing it, but having at least one other person to work with is key. Even things that I disliked sounded better when someone else added their ideas to them. I'd add the cavet that you respect the person's musicianship and songwriting. That being said, I took on a project with a writer/player who I did not think was particularly good after hearing him over a period of time, but his enthusiasm and encouragement brought out more productivity and some of his weaker ideas morphed into some good things. His catalyst was very beneficial. |
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Post by svart on Nov 5, 2019 9:41:13 GMT -6
I personally have 50GB+ of song ideas, riffs, etc, that I never go back to because my moods and (dis)likes change daily. All I can say is that keep doing it, but having at least one other person to work with is key. Even things that I disliked sounded better when someone else added their ideas to them. I'd add the cavet that you respect the person's musicianship and songwriting. That being said, I took on a project with a writer/player who I did not think was particularly good after hearing him over a period of time, but his enthusiasm and encouragement brought out more productivity and some of his weaker ideas morphed into some good things. His catalyst was very beneficial. Yeah, you have to find the right person. Sometimes the musicianship is perfect, but the personality doesn't work, or vice-versa. Sometimes you can handle the problems that arise between you, sometimes you can't. Unfortunately, I think with today's access to endless numbers of willing musical parties via the internet, it's much like marriage is these days.. Nobody is compelled to try to make anything work due to the large pool of choices to try out. If even the slightest thing irks someone, they just click a few links and options that look more appealing are available. However, there is also the problem with watering down.. It's also very easy for just about anyone to put themselves out there and they might even over-state their abilities.. So now you have a lot of people to choose from, but the double-edged-sword is that you have a LOT of people to choose from.. |
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Post by stormymondays on Nov 5, 2019 10:47:03 GMT -6
Enlist help! I’d be going crazy if I was working by myself at the studio. Even having a “tape op” is a tremendous help. If you can get a co-producer then you got it made.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 11:20:41 GMT -6
I've been mixing my own bands thing for a while now. It's been kind of a nightmare. Constant tweaking, never good enough (even when everyone else tells me its great). I can't do it again. I'll always track, but not mixing my own records anymore. It's good. It objectively is good, but it's also not. haha.
With guitar solos, I always do one, "hate" it, then do a bunch more takes. 99.9% of the time, I keep the 1st one. Funny how that works. I'm not thinking on the first one. That's the edge. Everyone after that I'm trying to out-do the 1st one, so my brain is working on an analytical level and not an instinct level. I then just learn that first take, and repeat (not big on improv).
I don't have a ton of gigs of material of my own recorded, because I don't bother recording it until I know it's good, for better or worse. That can take 5 minutes or 5 years. I find that if I just document everything, I get too bogged down in it and never end up finishing anything.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 5, 2019 11:57:02 GMT -6
Yeah I fight this constantly. I can never see myself like someone else sees me...I’m constantly thinking about I’m going to be “found out.” I would love to hand off stuff to other people, I.e. track stuff with other people...but it costs money. I think the only thing you can do is put what you do out there and not absolutely hammer yourself.
A big frustration to me has been when writing with co-writers, finishing a tune - then demoing it for free - and there are fucking crickets. Not a thank you, or a “great job” or even a “this sucks.” You get to the point where it’s like what’s the point? It’s a constant struggle. I think the key is just to pick and choose friends wisely and put your nose to the grindstone. But you’re not alone.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 5, 2019 11:58:41 GMT -6
Also think the question in 2019 is:what is the end goal? What is attainable?
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Post by Tbone81 on Nov 5, 2019 12:31:54 GMT -6
A lot of this is "imposter syndrome", and we all face it. It's rooted in insecurity and fear, and is an unfortunately part of the human condition. I definitely struggle with, in fact I'm pretty sure everyone who works in any artistic medium does too.
I think it was Picaso who said "Art is never finished, only abandoned".
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Post by nick8801 on Nov 5, 2019 12:43:36 GMT -6
I always follow the Nike slogan of "Just Do It". Sometimes you gotta just keep going. Maybe a guitar part is a little off, or maybe a vocal is out of tune, but you will never finish anything if you keep questioning every decision. It should always be about emotional performance anyway. I can't even count the amount of times I've argued with people over minute details when the performance was really great. It's easy to criticize small minute details when you're the performer, but it takes some skill to step back and listen to the emotion of the performance because chances are, that's what the audience is going to hear.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 13:09:34 GMT -6
I always follow the Nike slogan of "Just Do It". Sometimes you gotta just keep going. Maybe a guitar part is a little off, or maybe a vocal is out of tune, but you will never finish anything if you keep questioning every decision. It should always be about emotional performance anyway. I can't even count the amount of times I've argued with people over minute details when the performance was really great. It's easy to criticize small minute details when you're the performer, but it takes some skill to step back and listen to the emotion of the performance because chances are, that's what the audience is going to hear. What's interesting (and I tell bands this all the time), is that I actually encourage other performers to leave in some of the warts, but when it comes to my stuff, I'll do take after take until it's "perfect". |
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Post by nick8801 on Nov 5, 2019 13:18:20 GMT -6
I always follow the Nike slogan of "Just Do It". Sometimes you gotta just keep going. Maybe a guitar part is a little off, or maybe a vocal is out of tune, but you will never finish anything if you keep questioning every decision. It should always be about emotional performance anyway. I can't even count the amount of times I've argued with people over minute details when the performance was really great. It's easy to criticize small minute details when you're the performer, but it takes some skill to step back and listen to the emotion of the performance because chances are, that's what the audience is going to hear. What's interesting (and I tell bands this all the time), is that I actually encourage other performers to leave in some of the warts, but when it comes to my stuff, I'll do take after take until it's "perfect". I do the same thing. I think I re-did the vocals on my last record several times before I was happy. If I was working with another engineer or producer I'm sure they would have told me that they were fine several takes ago. On the other end of the spectrum, I work with an artist who almost always refuses to do more than one take on anything. He really wants to capture the energy of the first performance. Sometimes it works great, sometimes not so much. It really is song dependent. Go for emotion and you will succeed. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 5, 2019 13:36:09 GMT -6
What's interesting (and I tell bands this all the time), is that I actually encourage other performers to leave in some of the warts, but when it comes to my stuff, I'll do take after take until it's "perfect". I do the same thing. I think I re-did the vocals on my last record several times before I was happy. If I was working with another engineer or producer I'm sure they would have told me that they were fine several takes ago. On the other end of the spectrum, I work with an artist who almost always refuses to do more than one take on anything. He really wants to capture the energy of the first performance. Sometimes it works great, sometimes not so much. It really is song dependent. Go for emotion and you will succeed. It's also important to advocate for yourself too if you really feel strongly that you can do better. I definitely lose the debate now and then and end up thinking "man, I'm glad he/she didn't just listen to me and keep that last take." |
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 5, 2019 14:07:25 GMT -6
I watched some Bowie documentary where they were talking to a bunch of his band and collaborators. They were going through how a bunch of his hits came together...and it was like a string of people like Carlos Alomar saying, "Yeah, he brought in this and that and I just played this..." and then he plays the main lick to Fame or Let's Dance...and I'm like, "well shit...that's the key - surround yourself with amazing people that are better at the things you're not..." But I'm sure he was paying Carlos a LOT of money lol.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 5, 2019 14:15:59 GMT -6
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Post by donr on Nov 5, 2019 14:27:59 GMT -6
When I record myself, if I don't get it in one take, I'll do several until I hear something I like. Then I'll punch into that track to fix any part of it I don't. Same with guitar or vocals.
I'll comp tracks sometimes for a keeper, but I find it's generally faster to keep punching into a good take for a finished performance. Once me-as-listener decides it's good enough, I don't worry about it at all after that.
And it's great to work with other players, expecially if they're great.
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Post by mike on Nov 5, 2019 15:25:13 GMT -6
Interesting test and Yeah it nailed me accurately too.
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Post by wiz on Nov 5, 2019 17:32:52 GMT -6
I experience this continually.... as a one man show.
I have found certain workarounds that work for me.....in fact I was just thinking about doing a video about this stuff, but figured no one would really be interested.
cheers
Wiz
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 5, 2019 17:37:25 GMT -6
I'd say that test was pretty damn close.
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 5, 2019 17:44:39 GMT -6
I personally have 50GB+ of song ideas, riffs, etc, that I never go back to because my moods and (dis)likes change daily. All I can say is that keep doing it, but having at least one other person to work with is key. Even things that I disliked sounded better when someone else added their ideas to them. I'd add the cavet that you respect the person's musicianship and songwriting. That being said, I took on a project with a writer/player who I did not think was particularly good after hearing him over a period of time, but his enthusiasm and encouragement brought out more productivity and some of his weaker ideas morphed into some good things. His catalyst was very beneficial.
I had this with a Punk thing, but I am not a convinced Punker at all. One of my producer friends figured out what the good thing was about, and advised me to sing a bit different. And voilà the whole song worked. I was not able to see it but he was. It took him about 3 minutes to give me the right advice.
Enlist help! I’d be going crazy if I was working by myself at the studio. Even having a “tape op” is a tremendous help. If you can get a co-producer then you got it made.
Mh with the right environment, which I have by now, the technical part is OK to me - for now. There should be more often some human musicians---- I swear 2020 I book more tracking time at a friends studio.
I've been mixing my own bands thing for a while now. It's been kind of a nightmare. Constant tweaking, never good enough (even when everyone else tells me its great). I can't do it again. I'll always track, but not mixing my own records anymore. It's good. It objectively is good, but it's also not. haha. I don't have a ton of gigs of material of my own recorded, because I don't bother recording it until I know it's good, for better or worse. That can take 5 minutes or 5 years. I find that if I just document everything, I get too bogged down in it and never end up finishing anything.
Mixing the own music can be hard. It's alright to me if there is time to put the mix away for a few days, but sometimes, special if there is a deadline, the mix turns out not so great IMO.
The second thing is great advice. I have also tons of Song ideas on the HD which help when there are a writers block.
But I stopped this year collecting new ideas.
I just pick the good ones and finish the song.
Yeah I fight this constantly. I can never see myself like someone else sees me...I’m constantly thinking about I’m going to be “found out.” I would love to hand off stuff to other people, I.e. track stuff with other people...but it costs money. I think the only thing you can do is put what you do out there and not absolutely hammer yourself. A big frustration to me has been when writing with co-writers, finishing a tune - then demoing it for free - and there are fucking crickets. Not a thank you, or a “great job” or even a “this sucks.” You get to the point where it’s like what’s the point? It’s a constant struggle. I think the key is just to pick and choose friends wisely and put your nose to the grindstone. But you’re not alone.
Most of the time I use my studio for my personal music. It's my save place and I do not have to make a living by selling studio time.
I did try it (2005-2007) and it was a nightmare. 1 of 10 clients acted professional, the rest were jerks which sucked the last bit of energy out of my soul.
Today I sometimes work for clients but its good that I can choose. Most often these jobs come over contacts by friends in the biz and I know that I am to 90% save with those contacts.
Overall I do not run after jobs.
If it happens it is nice -icing on the cake- if not I am still a happy camper.
A lot of this is "imposter syndrome", and we all face it. It's rooted in insecurity and fear, and is an unfortunately part of the human condition. I definitely struggle with, in fact I'm pretty sure everyone who works in any artistic medium does too. I think it was Picaso who said "Art is never finished, only abandoned".
My psychologist told me about this syndrome.
It got a lot better when we stabilized my self-esteem.
I always follow the Nike slogan of "Just Do It". Sometimes you gotta just keep going. Maybe a guitar part is a little off, or maybe a vocal is out of tune, but you will never finish anything if you keep questioning every decision. It should always be about emotional performance anyway. I can't even count the amount of times I've argued with people over minute details when the performance was really great. It's easy to criticize small minute details when you're the performer, but it takes some skill to step back and listen to the emotion of the performance because chances are, that's what the audience is going to hear.
Yes when its other peoples stuff which I transcribe I often hear big mistakes. Taking Joe Pass solo FS performances ---- Joe just does not care he stays cool even if he knows that he started the song too fast, you can hear he is struggling the whole performance long. So what.... the world is still spinning after a not so great performance. (which still is great when Joe Pass was doing it).
Some of his tracking sessions are full of mistakes and it sounds great.
I wish I had a little more of Joe Pass - I don't care spirit. Maybe this and hard work made him the master he was.
I watched some Bowie documentary where they were talking to a bunch of his band and collaborators. They were going through how a bunch of his hits came together...and it was like a string of people like Carlos Alomar saying, "Yeah, he brought in this and that and I just played this..." and then he plays the main lick to Fame or Let's Dance...and I'm like, "well shit...that's the key - surround yourself with amazing people that are better at the things you're not..." But I'm sure he was paying Carlos a LOT of money lol.
Those situations I have been told by my "mentor" who was a part of Alphaville in the 80s. Everybody knows the trumpet synth solo in "Forever Young".
Story goes like this....
He was young they had a lot of luck, and they were Pop stars overnight. He was asked by one of the arrangers if he has an idea for a synth trumpet solo. He told me he just randomly picked note values out of the C Major scale and filled the bars in the sequencer.
Just in the hope that it sounds great....
The arranger was impressed by him. 
When I record myself, if I don't get it in one take, I'll do several until I hear something I like. Then I'll punch into that track to fix any part of it I don't. Same with guitar or vocals. I'll comp tracks sometimes for a keeper, but I find it's generally faster to keep punching into a good take for a finished performance. Once me-as-listener decides it's good enough, I don't worry about it at all after that. And it's great to work with other players, expecially if they're great.
Creating a guitar solo with comping is what I do too, but it feels more like arranging it out with no space for good or bad luck. But to be true both methods can work. You are right I often like the first two bars -which were improvised- and the next idea in my head is triggered by this.
But I can't hide that I am sometimes still not happy with my decisions. I always need to step back a few days to hear that its good what I did...
PS:
Sting told many times in interviews that the trick is to be surrounded by musicians which are better than Sting.
PS: Sorry for my English I can't do it better... I am not a native speaker.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 5, 2019 18:18:18 GMT -6
I experience this continually.... as a one man show. I have found certain workarounds that work for me.....in fact I was just thinking about doing a video about this stuff, but figured no one would really be interested. cheers Wiz I bet it would get a lot of views. I swear I think there’s a market for mental health, self help for those of us in this business. I’m just too lazy to pursue it. |
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