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Post by mike on Sept 27, 2019 19:23:03 GMT -6
My question, partly inspired by DrSax's comments on the home mixer thread and also what I've been wondering for awhile of which piece of hardware would make the biggest improvement on the mixbuss over software for me, leads me to ask......Which piece of gear, from Summing, plugins, comps, eq’s, mixers, transformers, etc made the biggest difference in improving your sound ?
Maybe the biggest difference for some is more on the front end then the mixbuss, but while many of our hardware/software pieces seem to improve our sound in small increments, I'm interested to know which piece of gear made the largest impact on improving your sound ?
Thanks,
Mike
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Post by jampa on Sept 27, 2019 21:07:14 GMT -6
I have so many answers to this but three stand out right now
When I got an RME UFX and went from recording 8 channels at a time to tracking 20+ was a time I grew a lot. Started patching in dedicated pres instead of using interface pres only.
When I got presonus sceptre monitors and set up my room better, my ears suddenly had loads more information to work with, and I grew a lot, and my mixes improved in a short amount of time.
Finally, when I recently got my ears cleaned... That piece of ear-cleaning gear really improved my sound, literally, and my judgement improved (or went back to normal, ha!)
Fun question, thanks
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Post by Tbone81 on Sept 27, 2019 21:34:03 GMT -6
Sebatron vmp-4000 on the 2 bus. It was a moment of realization, of clarity...discovering that sometimes it is the gear. It opened my eyes to what could be done with high quality mic Pres and led me to using capi vp28’s and aml1073’s on busses too. It change my game overnight.
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Post by nick8801 on Sept 28, 2019 6:32:47 GMT -6
Sound treatment, my u87i, and a pair of ns10’s. A balanced room, a great microphone, and a microscope on the midrange. I’m working faster than ever and having a lot more fun! Just added a Burl B2 to the mix...that might add to this equation in a few months....
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Post by ragan on Sept 28, 2019 9:12:52 GMT -6
Monitors for sure (Dynaudio LYD 48). I don’t think there’s a close second as far as what improved things the most for me.
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 28, 2019 9:41:50 GMT -6
I’d say, not gear, but experience, hiding within gear choices, was the magic bullet.
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Post by damoongo on Sept 28, 2019 9:59:52 GMT -6
Sebatron vmp-4000 on the 2 bus. It was a moment of realization, of clarity...discovering that sometimes it is the gear. It opened my eyes to what could be done with high quality mic Pres and led me to using capi vp28’s and aml1073’s on busses too. It change my game overnight. Are there separate input transformers on those for line level? Or are you using it for makeup gain after passive summing? Just curious about your two bus implementation. (I use a Sonic Farm Creamer Plus far a similar application.) |
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Post by subspace on Sept 28, 2019 10:17:37 GMT -6
Most of the 'woah...' moments probably don't actually rate that high, switching from monitoring my original 2408 interface to a 1224's main outs was a shocker, trying my first ribbon mic on a guitar amp against my dynamics was a discovery, plugging said ribbon into a Neve instead of the desk was revealing... but actual effect on the final record? Probably getting a fader controller front and center for the DAW, something I delayed getting as it 'didn't effect audio quality...'
I started out with very little outboard, my main tool was the fader and I got away from that as I accrued more gear, especially ITB where options abound. Listening back to those early records and looking at old mix notes it was all about having my hands on the most important instrument in the mix at each moment and I got away from that ITB for awhile. I'm still happiest with a desk where the lead vocal fader and delay send are a simple muscle memory away, but a fader controller in touch mode got me back to capturing those mix moments.
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Post by Tbone81 on Sept 28, 2019 10:45:40 GMT -6
Sebatron vmp-4000 on the 2 bus. It was a moment of realization, of clarity...discovering that sometimes it is the gear. It opened my eyes to what could be done with high quality mic Pres and led me to using capi vp28’s and aml1073’s on busses too. It change my game overnight. Are there separate input transformers on those for line level? Or are you using it for makeup gain after passive summing? Just curious about your two bus implementation. (I use a Sonic Farm Creamer Plus far a similar application.) It doesn’t have separate line inputs but it has a pad that can be used to run line level signals. I don’t use any type of summing system, I just strap it across the 2 bus. I do use the filters quite a bit, a gentle low cut and a high shelf. The trick is to mix into it with the filters on. It makes things incredibly 3D. |
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Post by christopher on Sept 28, 2019 10:58:19 GMT -6
For me its console>tape, it was the missing color. Ideally you do need to be able to drive the machine's front end, and a way to do clean make up gain and then to summing on the back end. My 1978 MCI JH110 deck's electronics distort pretty easily when pushed (in an awesome guitar amp type way though), and the makeup gain is not great (can be mistaken as really loud tape hiss). Using 30ips and the console for makeup gain, it can be clean enough. Pre-EQ (cut lows/boost highs) can get even cleaner if needed.
I don't know why I like it so much, I can barely tell if its doing anything at all half the time. Oh well, I just don't question it, it makes me happy.
pretty much same way this video. Mara's machines would probably better than mine in a lot of ways.
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Post by drsax on Sept 28, 2019 11:05:33 GMT -6
Focusing on one high end signal chain from start to finish made the biggest difference to me:
1. Room being recorded in needed to be balanced. Nothing super fancy but had to get rid of some anomalies with room treatment
2. Great versatile high end microphone (Innertube MagMic was my first)
3. Good cable thru the entire chain from mic to pre to patchbay to converter and from DA to monitors - Canare Star quad or Mogami Gold with gold neutrik connectors here. Not esoteric, but very good and reliable
4. High quality mic pre of Choice
5. High quality AD converter to capture (Burl, Svartbox & Lynx Hilo here)
6. If using a monitor controller, use high end ie dangerous, Grace, etc. if not using high end, don’t use a monitor controller. My old Presonus monitor controller clouded the sound significantly even though it was supposedly passive. Better to go straight from your DA converter to the monitors than to use a cheap monitor controller.
7. High end Master-buss gear. This is where my Silver Bullet is the star. If no good Master buss outboard is available that’s fine too, just use little to nothing on the buss. Or really good plugin limiter if needed ie. Weiss DS1 plug...
8. Good monitors
9. Good room/room treatment to optimize the listening position.
It’s a lot, but having one top notch signal path from start to finish is where it all changed for me. For large multitrack stuff, I use 40 plus channels of UA Apollo mkii, and inserting gear, but for bread and butter, the Burl, Svartbox, Hilo for tracking leads, master buss inserts and DA make quite a difference.
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Post by drsax on Sept 28, 2019 11:14:59 GMT -6
For me its console>tape, it was the missing color. Ideally you do need to be able to drive the machine's front end, and a way to do clean make up gain and then to summing on the back end. My 1978 MCI JH110 deck's electronics distort pretty easily when pushed (in an awesome guitar amp type way though), and the makeup gain is not great (can be mistaken as really loud tape hiss). Using 30ips and the console for makeup gain, it can be clean enough. Pre-EQ (cut lows/boost highs) can get even cleaner if needed. I don't know why I like it so much, I can barely tell if its doing anything at all half the time. Oh well, I just don't question it, it makes me happy. pretty much same way this video. Mara's machines would probably better than mine in a lot of ways. I like color on the way in as well. If I had more time and budget I’d get a tape machine. In my incredibly fast paced work schedule, my Silver bullet, Zulu, Burl AD and other tube/transformer gear all add nice color on the way in. There’s no doubt that adding color and taming transients while recording make a HUGE difference. And Tape does that so beautifully!! |
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Post by svart on Sept 28, 2019 12:27:09 GMT -6
That's tough to answer. Most all the things I have patched up right now are things that have collectively gotten me to where I am, and it's not been like I just plugged something up and it was immediately tons better results..
It was mainly learning how to push and pull each piece of gear for the best results that got me this far.
However, I'd say my biggest jump was pro-level monitors, followed by pro-level converters.
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Post by mike on Sept 28, 2019 12:53:32 GMT -6
Thanks for some great and interesting answers so far. Good food for thought, keep them coming!
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Post by johneppstein on Sept 28, 2019 13:22:47 GMT -6
Steadily improving my rig - it's an evolutionary process. Improving my mic collection made a huge difference. Generally speaking, saving up my money to buy really good gear instead of looking for "bargains" on cheap or midlevel gear. (which is not to say that I don't try to get bargains on the higher quality stuff, I definitely do. Patience is a virtue)
One thing that made a great difference was when I ditched my old Echo Laylas and got the Antelope Orion 32 - I can now record to the computer without cringing when it's not economically viable to roll tape. Getting my hands on a few high quality mics made a huge difference as well - a handful of really good mics are more useful than a closet full of more common mics - which is not to say that all my less costly mics are useless.
It's hard to say much in terms of improving a currently conventional system because I didn't start with a computer - I started as an analog guy a long time ago. My first attempts at digital systems were rather disappointing.
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Post by bluegrassdan on Sept 29, 2019 7:23:41 GMT -6
Oh, man. My opinion is that there is no "one thing" that takes priority. It's all important.
BUT...
If your recording and listening rooms sound bad, NO amount of gear can fix it.
So, to answer your question, having well-treated rooms, AND learning how to position performers within those rooms, has made the greatest improvement on my sound over the years.
[That, and good headphone mixes. If the performers can't hear well, they will have trouble playing well.]
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Post by trakworxmastering on Sept 29, 2019 10:08:31 GMT -6
...which piece of hardware would make the biggest improvement on the mixbuss over software for me, leads me to ask......Which piece of gear, from Summing, plugins, comps, eq’s, mixers, transformers, etc made the biggest difference in improving your sound ? Am I the only one who's tired of questions about processors being answered with advice about monitoring and acoustics? It's just the most overdone thing on audio forums everywhere... for decades... Yawn... When people ask about processors, can't we start assuming that they have their monitoring covered? Just to save space? Sorry for the rant, it's just enough already. And my coffee is too strong this morning! To answer the first question the OP asked - If I had to pick a "piece of hardware that would make the biggest improvement on the mix bus" it would have to be the Hendyamps Michelangelo tube EQ. There's some magic in that box and it's versatile. Lots of coloration when you want it or relatively clean EQ when you want that. It's also great for tracking. It looks like the OP also asks a more general question about non-mix-bus processors overall. I find it impossible to answer that question with just a single piece of gear. It's an amalgamation. So I refer back to my first answer. I hope this helps! |
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Post by bluegrassdan on Sept 29, 2019 10:42:02 GMT -6
Justin, you're right. I was going for low-hanging fruit without considering the context of the question.
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Post by nick8801 on Sept 29, 2019 11:37:17 GMT -6
...which piece of hardware would make the biggest improvement on the mixbuss over software for me, leads me to ask......Which piece of gear, from Summing, plugins, comps, eq’s, mixers, transformers, etc made the biggest difference in improving your sound ? Am I the only one who's tired of questions about processors being answered with advice about monitoring and acoustics? It's just the most overdone thing on audio forums everywhere... for decades... Yawn... When people ask about processors, can't we start assuming that they have their monitoring covered? Just to save space? Sorry for the rant, it's just enough already. And my coffee is too strong this morning! To answer the first question the OP asked - If I had to pick a "piece of hardware that would make the biggest improvement on the mix bus" it would have to be the Hendyamps Michelangelo tube EQ. There's some magic in that box and it's versatile. Lots of coloration when you want it or relatively clean EQ when you want that. It's also great for tracking. It looks like the OP also asks a more general question about non-mix-bus processors overall. I find it impossible to answer that question with just a single piece of gear. It's an amalgamation. So I refer back to my first answer. I hope this helps! Fair point....in that case I’d say quality preamps. I recently picked up a Useful Arts sfp30 and it’s my favorite preamp I’ve ever used. Also, the Izotope stuff has made life very easy in plug-in world. So much so that I sold many of my outboard pieces. |
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Post by trakworxmastering on Sept 29, 2019 12:20:59 GMT -6
I’d say, not gear, but experience, hiding within gear choices, was the magic bullet. Experience hiding within gear choices. I like that concept. I guess the OP is asking for the benefit of our experience to make his gear choices. That can be helpful but you're right that with his own experience he'll make even better gear choices. For him. Seek advice. Trial and error. Repeat. |
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Post by notneeson on Sept 29, 2019 13:05:45 GMT -6
I’d say, not gear, but experience, hiding within gear choices, was the magic bullet. Experience hiding within gear choices. I like that concept. I guess the OP is asking for the benefit of our experience to make his gear choices. That can be helpful but you're right that with his own experience he'll make even better gear choices. For him. Seek advice. Trial and error. Repeat. Very good point. I think as I learn new-to-me gear it sometimes leads me to overcook a mix or three before I get a better handle on the sound of the unit. I get excited about a piece, and lean too heavily on it. Definitely did that when I got my hands on a vintage Fairchild. Now, maybe not so much that the client would ever notice, but I’m my biggest critic by design. |
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Post by schmalzy on Sept 29, 2019 13:22:16 GMT -6
This is going to sound KIND OF stupid:
Which piece of gear helped me the most? Patch bay. Easily!
Half-normaled from my preamps so I can mult anything. It's SUPER helpful! I can "go for it" during capture and also take an unprocessed signal as a safety net. I oftentimes end up using the processed version but it's great to know I can commit to a sound and still not be too screwed if I made a bad choice or the song ends up having to go a different way.
After that: an Ibanez AD-150 analog delay. Not as a delay (though it sounds super cool) but as a distortion device. The front end of it is super crunchy if you push it and introduced me to a type of distortion I hadn't really heard but was something my ear knew exactly what it was good for as soon as I heard it. That concept of "distort more stuff" has been hugely helpful in my heavy music mixes.
Stam's SA4000 also REALLY made me hear compression differently. It just changed my ears. I was already compressing for tone rather than solely dynamic control but - holy hell - I just started to hear it differently when I started to use the SA 4000. Kush's Novatron was also super revealing in that way, too. Another "concept" thing but it was super important! Did the gear sound good enough to reveal it to me or did I finally get to the point where I can hear it that way? No way to know!
Software? Kush's Omega plugins. Having an adjustable amount of good-sounding saturation (with some tonal shift) has been super helpful. I really like the API one but the Neve one is great when it's the right choice. There's something super useable about the 458a saturation but it brightens things a lot and I find I often end up having to darken things a bit after it. If you're looking for a tonal lift for a source, though - tilt EQ-style - it might be perfect.
Also, just get Soothe. You'll use it once or twice per mix but it'll be perfect.
So there are a couple non-standard thoughts and a couple standard recommendations for ya'!
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Post by dreamsambas on Sept 29, 2019 14:03:42 GMT -6
My first vintage Neumann (it was a KM-86) and then a pair of Coles 4038. On the right source, those mics were simply magic.
*edit: oops! I just saw that you were asking about mixbus.. my bad!
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Post by mike on Sept 29, 2019 16:21:58 GMT -6
*edit: oops! I just saw that you were asking about mixbus.. my bad!
No worries, it's any part of the process for anyone, so it's all good. I appreciate all of the responses knowing everyone's journey and experience is a little different you can draw something from, so it's all good food for thought to me.
While I had originally been thinking more about hardware choices on the mixbuss for me lately, and then read DrSax's comments on another thread, I kind of amended my original question in the 2nd paragraph of my OP to be any part of the process for anyone. Whether it's the front end or the back end, knowing most pieces often seem to be smaller incremental improvements separately making for a greater whole together, led me to be curious as to what piece of gear by itself made the biggest impact on improving your sound ?
Thanks for all of the reply's I appreciate it,
Mike
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Post by popmann on Sept 29, 2019 18:29:09 GMT -6
I would say the first major POSITIVE turn of noticeable scale in the digital era was monitoring.
The second was going all HD all the time. I did demos in HD for years, and always lamented that the finished stuff was always more of a "fight"...I stayed single rate too long. I kept waiting for a embedded system to come out...I'd pay money for a no visuals recording/mixing system.
Other stuff...I mean, I've long said, and maintain--SOURCES make the difference in a musician who is recording themselves. My vintage C3/122, for example made for quite a leap in the organ tones--recorded with anything onto anything vs the various CloneWheels I played in the 90s (and early 00s).
There have been workflow shifts--like the Royer 121 finally allowing me to track an amp to sound "like it does in the room" rather than a "starting point to make a recorded tone" like other mics had been. I'd have a hard time NOT using that.
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