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Post by notneeson on Sept 8, 2019 21:13:17 GMT -6
Massey L2007, always sounds more mid-forward to me on the vibrant setting, and as I reference it a lot, I miss it when it’s off. Will it still give you the mid bump if you put it on there with zero GR? Or you could shoot tones through it and see if you can make an EQ preset that approximates it. Or better still, just keep sending me your tracks! Already planning to recommend you for the album I’m working on now. I think zero GR does the trick, need to revisit that. Mostly it doesn’t matter because if the client won’t pay for mastering I just give them my limited mix.
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Post by MorEQsThanAnswers on Sept 9, 2019 12:56:06 GMT -6
Sorry, no, it doesn't work the way you think. Not if your ME is using analog hardware. Also not if he does any significant EQing, dynamic EQing, compressing, etc. My first post is all true. Trust me, I've been a ME for 25 years and I've seen every scenario. Talk. To. Your. ME. First. Would you willing to explain why trimming down the file ITB before inserting the gear doesn't work? I hope you don't think I was doubting your experience! Looks like I'm about to learn something new!
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Post by trakworxmastering on Sept 9, 2019 13:18:06 GMT -6
Sorry, no, it doesn't work the way you think. Not if your ME is using analog hardware. Also not if he does any significant EQing, dynamic EQing, compressing, etc. My first post is all true. Trust me, I've been a ME for 25 years and I've seen every scenario. Talk. To. Your. ME. First. Would you willing to explain why trimming down the file ITB before inserting the gear doesn't work? I hope you don't think I was doubting your experience! Looks like I'm about to learn something new! Lowering the gain before processing doesn't fix the problem of clipped waves distorting in processors. The result is more harsh sounding if not outright distorted. Remember, clipping IS distortion. Distortion only increases with further processing. Also, processing itself causes new peaks (sometimes more than you might imagine) that will require yet more limiting GR when turning the file back up, which can diminish punch, attack, and cause distortion. MEs can work with clipped tracks, but we generally prefer not to because it makes our job harder and often yields worse results. Do you really want to make your ME's job harder? Or easier? If you want loudness, save it for the end of the mastering process where it causes the least harm. If you prefer clipping over limiting, fine, but clip at the end of the mastering chain, not before.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2019 16:16:22 GMT -6
".... I’m a little over hearing my mixes flattened by the limiter..." Why not just ask your ME to stop being so heavy handed with the limiting? I do it before my guy even starts the thing.
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Post by svart on Sept 10, 2019 21:00:00 GMT -6
Gotta steer this thread towards the OG question: Does this technique create issues for mastering engineers if you aren’t yet an impeccable mixer? I mix how I want it to sound on the record. I'm anal like that. The ME can complain, but I'm not doing the guessing game thing and hoping they get exactly what I want. No offense to MEs meant though. I'm just a control freak with my mixes. I've explained this to MEs that I've worked with and they're usually cool about it. I really just want another set of professional ears listening and for them to tell me it's good, or what problems it might have. Other folks want tons of tweaks and stuff done to their mixes by the ME. That's just the nature of the game. I also clip the a/d by 3-6db usually. There's certainly a point where it goes from "enough" to totally unusable very quickly. Usually the rest of the mix has to be balanced well for it to be a viable trick. Too much of something will make it sound pretty bad, although you can use it to kinda figure out your mix issues too. The better the balance, the more clipping you can get away with before it falls apart. Should also mention that the clipping will change the balance of the mix a little as well, so I generally try to get the mix working, then push it up into clipping and tweak again, etc.
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Post by MorEQsThanAnswers on Sept 11, 2019 11:36:53 GMT -6
I also clip the a/d by 3-6db usually. There's certainly a point where it goes from "enough" to totally unusable very quickly. Usually the rest of the mix has to be balanced well for it to be a viable trick. Which converter? Also, would you concur that this technique might often bite me in the butt with 808-centric music? It was mentioned earlier in the thread. Hoping the ME gets back soon!
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Post by notneeson on Sept 11, 2019 13:51:24 GMT -6
I also clip the a/d by 3-6db usually. There's certainly a point where it goes from "enough" to totally unusable very quickly. Usually the rest of the mix has to be balanced well for it to be a viable trick. Which converter? Also, would you concur that this technique might often bite me in the butt with 808-centric music? It was mentioned earlier in the thread. Hoping the ME gets back soon! He built and designed his own converter!
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Post by svart on Sept 11, 2019 16:27:52 GMT -6
I also clip the a/d by 3-6db usually. There's certainly a point where it goes from "enough" to totally unusable very quickly. Usually the rest of the mix has to be balanced well for it to be a viable trick. Which converter? Also, would you concur that this technique might often bite me in the butt with 808-centric music? It was mentioned earlier in the thread. Hoping the ME gets back soon! I designed my own, and actually sold about 30 of them here and all over before retiring them. The thread is in the diy section that covers the design and such. I don't have the link handy though. I think most Higher end converters can be pushed to some degree. It's usually related to the front-end buffering going into compression before the converters rail out and give that harsh crackle.
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Post by MorEQsThanAnswers on Sept 12, 2019 12:57:58 GMT -6
[I think most Higher end converters can be pushed to some degree. It's usually related to the front-end buffering going into compression before the converters rail out and give that harsh crackle. So, I’d never have meant to push this thing (AD+) into a “crackle.” My primary goal is to mix knowing how my drums will knock at commercial volume. The “loudness” isn’t my purpose, but rather a side effect of preparing the track to dial in these transients. Ftr, this is for commercial hip-hop. Keeping in mind what you just said, is the OTB mastering issue described earlier a result of “audible distortion” creating more “audible distortion” or was it the idea that the HW has trouble articulating the flattened waveforms and spits out distortion instead (regardless of input level)? Sorry for the ignorance; I’ve looked everywhere online for info on these techniques and really can’t find much. I’ve honestly considered that it’s a giant secret being kept by the older guys because they know kids would just start ramming the front of their Focusrites out of Fruity Loops if the idea went around YouTube haha
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Post by audioscape on Sept 12, 2019 20:54:28 GMT -6
PS - if you pay REALLY close attention to the transient flow of your drums / percussion when you are mixing, and get those under control, your ability to get your masters loud will be MUCH easier, and much less destructive to the musicality of your mixes. THIS! +1,000,000,000. CREST FACTOR is so vital. Period. Carry on ;-)
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Post by svart on Sept 12, 2019 21:09:46 GMT -6
[I think most Higher end converters can be pushed to some degree. It's usually related to the front-end buffering going into compression before the converters rail out and give that harsh crackle. So, I’d never have meant to push this thing (AD+) into a “crackle.” My primary goal is to mix knowing how my drums will knock at commercial volume. The “loudness” isn’t my purpose, but rather a side effect of preparing the track to dial in these transients. Ftr, this is for commercial hip-hop. Keeping in mind what you just said, is the OTB mastering issue described earlier a result of “audible distortion” creating more “audible distortion” or was it the idea that the HW has trouble articulating the flattened waveforms and spits out distortion instead (regardless of input level)? Sorry for the ignorance; I’ve looked everywhere online for info on these techniques and really can’t find much. I’ve honestly considered that it’s a giant secret being kept by the older guys because they know kids would just start ramming the front of their Focusrites out of Fruity Loops if the idea went around YouTube haha Might be easier to explain this way.. Any flattening of a signal is producing distortion, but the amount of distortion can be varied by how much you push it, and the distortion type and tone change depending on what is causing it. Since transients are very fast, clipping them isn't heard as easily as say trying to clip an 808 hit would be. I wouldn't call it a secret, but modern mixing theory seems to be that you mix everything perfectly distortion free, unless you're going for a distorted effect, and then you use certain gear or plugs to get that effect (which is why I see so many folks chaining tons of plugs, because you can't push them and get the saturation). When in truth, most of the pros I've studied go for tone first, and barely recognize any "rules" that have sprung up, and their tracks have tons of unnoticed distortions happening, usually from pushing gear into "sweet spots" or using plug chains to emulate distorting analog gear. It's no secret that tubes and transformers can add pleasing distortion when pushed mildly, or wild distortion when pushed hard. Why is it taboo to push a converter the same way? Some guys noticed a long time ago that you could, and it added a sound that worked for them. Much like any other gear, sometimes that doesn't work so well for other guys. I'll say that it's not quite a secret, but most folks are accustomed to hearing that it's taboo to do, and as such, doesn't really get around.
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Post by christopher on Sept 12, 2019 23:24:25 GMT -6
The hip hop comment reminded me: I was looking up examples of Lavry Gold on YouTube last year, and someone was showing it off.. old video early 2000’s I think? I can’t find it now. Anyway it was a hip hop dude who used the top guy in mastering at the time, mastered all his fav artists. He told a story of going to attend the mastering session and he showed him that his secret to loudness was the Gold. He could slam the gold and there would be no artifacts. So he came home and bought one and was showing it off. $10k for 2 channels. So there may in fact be some serious truth to the secret sauce for extra loud stuff?
These days I’m not sure it’s worth the 1-2db over using plugins or summing clipping or whatever. But you can hear one in action in this fun video I came across :
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Post by MorEQsThanAnswers on Sept 13, 2019 1:05:10 GMT -6
The hip hop comment reminded me: I was looking up examples of Lavry Gold on YouTube last year, and someone was showing it off.. old video early 2000’s I think? I can’t find it now. Anyway it was a hip hop dude who used the top guy in mastering at the time, mastered all his fav artists. He told a story of going to attend the mastering session and he showed him that his secret to loudness was the Gold. He could slam the gold and there would be no artifacts. So he came home and bought one and was showing it off. $10k for 2 channels. So there may in fact be some serious truth to the secret sauce for extra loud stuff? These days I’m not sure it’s worth the 1-2db over using plugins or summing clipping or whatever. But you can hear one in action in this fun video I came across : I’m constantly seeing a Lavry gold pinned red on Jaycen Joshua’s insta
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