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Post by MorEQsThanAnswers on Sept 7, 2019 12:24:30 GMT -6
I’m considering a transition to the Dark Side of the Force...
I love my mastering engineer and trust his ears, but I’m a little over hearing my mixes flattened by the limiter and watched a former mentor combat the issue by crushing his A/D (JCF Latte). This technique isn’t talked about much on the web, so I wanted to see what information I could accumulate before committing to buying an AD+.
I’m admittedly not an A+ mixer, but wouldn’t call myself clueless. Does one need to already be a “stud mixer” before going down this road?
The ME would likely not want to be doing much compression, and since headroom is necessary for EQ, the tracks might even come back quieter than I sent them, right? Right now, it seems like a trade-off between which one of us is smashing their head against a cement wall!
How much would I have tied his/her hands, do MEs hate when mixers do this, and would this technique require additional metering to do properly?
Thanks!
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 7, 2019 13:39:04 GMT -6
Jerome here has the AD+ sure he will chime in.
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Post by Blackdawg on Sept 7, 2019 17:15:45 GMT -6
I see no issue with getting a better AD converter for mixing. Nothing wrong with that.
But just because you clip the converter doesn't mean it's mastered. Find another mastering engineer. Never hurts to shop around.
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Post by MorEQsThanAnswers on Sept 7, 2019 19:01:30 GMT -6
I see no issue with getting a better AD converter for mixing. Nothing wrong with that. But just because you clip the converter doesn't mean it's mastered. Find another mastering engineer. Never hurts to shop around. My bad on the explanation; I never meant to fire the ME. I’m confident that the unit would be an upgrade, but my apprehension is mostly in regards to intentionally murdering my headroom and I wondered if there is prerequisite knowledge to using this technique. Quite honestly, I’m also not sure if I’m shooting for an LUFS number, the most level I can get, or to match my references in terms of how loud things are. I’ll definitely get his .02 on the subject too. Looking for all the info I can get! |
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Post by christopher on Sept 7, 2019 19:04:19 GMT -6
I watched the YouTube video with Bob Ludwig. What surprised me was he talked about attended sessions. I was got into this field right when Napster has ruined everything, so I missed so much. Apparently artists would often attend the mastering sessions? As soon as he talked about Zappa spending 3 days mastering with him, a little light bulb went off: oh... so the gut reaction master isn’t always best
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Post by notneeson on Sept 7, 2019 20:27:31 GMT -6
I see no issue with getting a better AD converter for mixing. Nothing wrong with that. But just because you clip the converter doesn't mean it's mastered. Find another mastering engineer. Never hurts to shop around. My bad on the explanation; I never meant to fire the ME. I’m confident that the unit would be an upgrade, but my apprehension is mostly in regards to intentionally murdering my headroom and I wondered if there is prerequisite knowledge to using this technique. Quite honestly, I’m also not sure if I’m shooting for an LUFS number, the most level I can get, or to match my references in terms of how loud things are. I’ll definitely get his .02 on the subject too. Looking for all the info I can get! Clipping the AD is all about shaving off transients. People were raving about the Lavry Gold for this 15 years ago, FWIW. You could look into a silver bullet for another way to clip musically and reduce dynamic range. You're going to have to try stuff out and find out what works for you and your clients. |
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Post by MorEQsThanAnswers on Sept 8, 2019 1:51:37 GMT -6
Gotta steer this thread towards the OG question: Does this technique create issues for mastering engineers if you aren’t yet an impeccable mixer?
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Post by notneeson on Sept 8, 2019 9:02:21 GMT -6
Gotta steer this thread towards the OG question: Does this technique create issues for mastering engineers if you aren’t yet an impeccable mixer? Yes, as does eq, compression and limiting. At least in theory. In reality it happens all the time. Some ME’s are pretty salty and will let you know how they feel about this. The point of clipping the AD is to get more RMS level out of your track. It’s being used almost as a form of brick wall limiting which traditionally is one of the last things in the ME’s chain. So now you’re asking them to eq a track that’s already limited/clipped. The real question is what are the artifacts of this process? I’m not saying don’t do it, but I’d be cautious about introducing a technique you’ve never tried into your mixing process. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 8, 2019 10:05:27 GMT -6
Fab Dupont has a good brief demo video of the convert 2+ and he talks about ME’s dropping limiting in favour of overdriving with the Convert.
Another option is buy it and give it a good run 6 months and see ?
I see these coming up used very occasionally, which suggests those who buy them knew why and keep them ?
There’s a used on on GS now but it’s in Europe asking €2300, a little high i’d say?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 8, 2019 10:20:29 GMT -6
Great suggestion Kcat.
MoreEQ, you might also try using the ARIA mastering service. It's incredibly inexpensive. Less than $20 a track, or $49 for a month for 10 masters. They're way better than any of the crappy services I tried. They of course automate, but run everything through the highest end analogue gear. You could try the least invasive type, (there are 4 different mastering type choices).
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Post by trakworxmastering on Sept 8, 2019 10:21:58 GMT -6
Gotta steer this thread towards the OG question: Does this technique create issues for mastering engineers if you aren’t yet an impeccable mixer? The answer is YES. And it doesn't matter whether you're a good mixer or not. If you clip your ADC while printing your mix you are tying your ME's hands, for a couple main reasons: 1. He'll have to lower the level in order to process the mix and then raise it again using his limiter or clipping, thus multiplying the damage to the audio from loudness processing. 2. Clipped waveforms are more likely to distort when EQ'd/compressed in mastering. Loudness processing should be the last thing applied at the end of the mastering process, for best results. My advice is to talk to your ME before you do anything. If you're not liking his limiter then talk to him about it. He may be willing to work with you and experiment with clipping his ADC instead of limiting. And you might discover that limiting sounds better after all. Maybe. If that happened then you'd have spent a lot of money on an AD+ for nothing... It's also possible that it's his compressor, not his limiter, that you're objecting to. Gotta talk to him... |
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 8, 2019 10:24:24 GMT -6
^^This^^ I hired Justin for my album: you can talk with an ME but not with a box !  Had a great experience and very pleased with his work and results: that whole fresh ears and adding something sonically I couldn’t with my gear thing ! |
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Post by trakworxmastering on Sept 8, 2019 10:25:49 GMT -6
P.S. Also, if there is a possibility that the music will ever be pressed to vinyl then clipped waveforms will be a problem for the cutting engineer. If you provide unclipped mixes then your ME can generate good vinyl masters alongside the digital versions.
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Post by trakworxmastering on Sept 8, 2019 10:40:11 GMT -6
Gotta steer this thread towards the OG question: Does this technique create issues for mastering engineers if you aren’t yet an impeccable mixer? Yes, as does eq, compression and limiting. I think most MEs are alright with some tasteful EQ and compression on the mix bus, as long as it's done well and not overdone. But if you're not sure about your settings then best leave it to a ME you trust. Clipping/limiting before mastering is what we want to avoid... |
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Post by Tbone81 on Sept 8, 2019 11:34:54 GMT -6
I used to hate how my mixes sounded mastered because things changed too much, it was like a whole new mix and often not for the better. But I realized early on that it was my fault not the ME. My mixes were lacking in one way not another. The fix this i started doing several things:
1) I started using/experimenting with mix bus compression. I learned to mix into the compressor from an early stage in the mix. At first I was hitting it hard and getting like 5-7 dB GR. Gradually my mixes and technique have improved and now I find that 2-4 dB GR is the most I really need.
2) I put a limiter last in my chain on the master bus, shaving off 2-3 dB at the loudest transients. This was to get an idea of what it would sound like mastered. I’d then remove the limited for final bounce and send the result to mastering. I no longer do this as I feel I’ve outgrown the need to.
3) I started using bus compression on my drum bus, and sometimes on vocal, guitar and bass busses too.
4) I went hybrid and started strapping a nice tube pre across the mix bus. It changed my world.
5) I went deeper into hybrid territory and started using nice transformer balanced preamp across different busses (drums especially). The saturation and soft clipping really upped my game.
Now I’m extremely happy with what my ME does. It’s like the final polish on a really nice paint job. Keep in mind that each step informed the next and changed the way I use eq, compression, limiting and saturation. It was a slow learning process. Hope this helps YMMV
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Post by drbill on Sept 8, 2019 11:55:15 GMT -6
Clipping your A/D has been "a thing" for many years now. And in some ways, I find it preferrable to a lot of compression. But it does bring harshness to the mix. Which some like, but it's not my thing.
If you're trying to get a huge loudness factor in your music, the reality is, you're almost certainly going to need to clip, compress and/or limit the living $#!@ out of it - somewhere in the process. How, when and where you do it is the art of mixing / mastering and that's where the crux of the matter lies.
Personally, I MUCH prefer to clip in the analog realm over compression and/or digital limiting, and ESPECIALLY over clipping the A/D of my DAW. I never clip the A/D if I can help it. I don't like the harshness (listen to modern music much? lol) it brings. As mentioned above, the Silver Bullet clips the A side of things in a beautiful, euphonic way with widening and depth of field as a side benefit. The harder you push it, the more goodness it brings. Well....up to where it distorts. LOL
During Mastering, I'll use other pieces as well, but with a SB pushing the A side of things a bit and the Manley gently compressing 2-3dB, I rarely need to hit my mastering limiter (FabFilter L2) much to achieve -12 to -14 LUFS. If you need to go louder than that, well...you're entering the loudness wars. LOL Best of luck!!
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Post by drbill on Sept 8, 2019 11:57:31 GMT -6
PS - if you pay REALLY close attention to the transient flow of your drums / percussion when you are mixing, and get those under control, your ability to get your masters loud will be MUCH easier, and much less destructive to the musicality of your mixes.
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Post by notneeson on Sept 8, 2019 12:52:08 GMT -6
Yes, as does eq, compression and limiting. I think most MEs are alright with some tasteful EQ and compression on the mix bus, as long as it's done well and not overdone. But if you're not sure about your settings then best leave it to a ME you trust. Clipping/limiting before mastering is what we want to avoid... I compress and EQ all the mixes I send to you, I just meant that everything matters in theory and if you’re not coming from a place of confidence and experience it might not be the best idea. In all honesty I miss the upper mid bump I get from limiting my mixes when I turn it off. A good ME like yourself always gets it back where it needs to be. |
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Post by MorEQsThanAnswers on Sept 8, 2019 14:54:14 GMT -6
Gotta steer this thread towards the OG question: Does this technique create issues for mastering engineers if you aren’t yet an impeccable mixer? The answer is YES. And it doesn't matter whether you're a good mixer or not. If you clip your ADC while printing your mix you are tying your ME's hands, for a couple main reasons: 1. He'll have to lower the level in order to process the mix and then raise it again using his limiter or clipping, thus multiplying the damage to the audio from loudness processing. 2. Clipped waveforms are more likely to distort when EQ'd/compressed in mastering. Loudness processing should be the last thing applied at the end of the mastering process, for best results. My advice is to talk to your ME before you do anything. If you're not liking his limiter then talk to him about it. He may be willing to work with you and experiment with clipping his ADC instead of limiting. And you might discover that limiting sounds better after all. Maybe. If that happened then you'd have spent a lot of money on an AD+ for nothing... It's also possible that it's his compressor, not his limiter, that you're objecting to. Gotta talk to him... I appreciate your responses! Quick clarifications on each question here: 1) If I meter my print appropriately, why would more clipping/limiting be necessary? 2) When mastering, couldn't utility plugins could be utilized to feed the EQ/Comps at proper operating level? At the end, one could push into a "security limiter" at -.2 dBfs until transparently tapping GR to compensate for how EQ restructured the peaks. If it did need extra volume after all that, it would need to lose those same dynamics whether I clipped it or not, right? I've assumed clipping these converters to be fairly subtle and an indisputable upgrade to limiting because of how your whole mix doesn't duck, but it's possible that hearing the Latte has spoiled my ears. I'll DM Jerome for AD+ examples, but does anybody know any recent Fab mixes that I should check out? Thanks! |
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Post by trakworxmastering on Sept 8, 2019 15:41:19 GMT -6
The answer is YES. And it doesn't matter whether you're a good mixer or not. If you clip your ADC while printing your mix you are tying your ME's hands, for a couple main reasons: 1. He'll have to lower the level in order to process the mix and then raise it again using his limiter or clipping, thus multiplying the damage to the audio from loudness processing. 2. Clipped waveforms are more likely to distort when EQ'd/compressed in mastering. Loudness processing should be the last thing applied at the end of the mastering process, for best results. My advice is to talk to your ME before you do anything. If you're not liking his limiter then talk to him about it. He may be willing to work with you and experiment with clipping his ADC instead of limiting. And you might discover that limiting sounds better after all. Maybe. If that happened then you'd have spent a lot of money on an AD+ for nothing... It's also possible that it's his compressor, not his limiter, that you're objecting to. Gotta talk to him... I appreciate your responses! Quick clarifications on each question here: 1) If I meter my print appropriately, why would more clipping/limiting be necessary? 2) When mastering, couldn't utility plugins could be utilized to feed the EQ/Comps at proper operating level? At the end, one could push into a "security limiter" at -.2 dBfs until transparently tapping GR to compensate for how EQ restructured the peaks. If it did need extra volume after all that, it would need to lose those same dynamics whether I clipped it or not, right? I've assumed clipping these converters to be fairly subtle and an indisputable upgrade to limiting because of how your whole mix doesn't duck, but it's possible that hearing the Latte has spoiled my ears. I'll DM Jerome for AD+ examples, but does anybody know any recent Fab mixes that I should check out? Thanks! Sorry, no, it doesn't work the way you think. Not if your ME is using analog hardware. Also not if he does any significant EQing, dynamic EQing, compressing, etc. My first post is all true. Trust me, I've been a ME for 25 years and I've seen every scenario. Talk. To. Your. ME. First. Also, if you're hearing the whole mix duck then that's likely a compressor you're hearing, not a brickwall limiter. None of my brickwall limiters cause ducking, but all of my compressors do when overused. Talk to your ME first times 1000. Best of luck! |
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Post by trakworxmastering on Sept 8, 2019 15:46:41 GMT -6
I think most MEs are alright with some tasteful EQ and compression on the mix bus, as long as it's done well and not overdone. But if you're not sure about your settings then best leave it to a ME you trust. Clipping/limiting before mastering is what we want to avoid... I compress and EQ all the mixes I send to you, I just meant that everything matters in theory and if you’re not coming from a place of confidence and experience it might not be the best idea. In all honesty I miss the upper mid bump I get from limiting my mixes when I turn it off. A good ME like yourself always gets it back where it needs to be. Your brickwall limiter adds an upper mid bump? Which limiter is that? |
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Post by MorEQsThanAnswers on Sept 8, 2019 15:55:06 GMT -6
I used to hate how my mixes sounded mastered because things changed too much, it was like a whole new mix and often not for the better. But I realized early on that it was my fault not the ME. My mixes were lacking in one way not another. This is something I'm considering too and sometimes I wonder if I've accidentally worked out the science towards buying something shiny! Hahah I deal with 2 things in Hip-hop very often (my primary genre): 1) The client wants an extremely loud mix, even before mastering. 2) I need extremely punchy drums with huge bass to play LOUD. The limiter often has a big effect on the mix because it needs to be so loud, particularly on the low-end. My interest in the topic came from wanting to build the punch and bass into a track that doesn't need limiting. I'd theoretically dodge those bullets as long as I'm responsible with my metering. That said, it needs to be done in a way that doesn't result in too many "kid, you f***ed me!" emails! |
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Post by notneeson on Sept 8, 2019 17:34:58 GMT -6
I compress and EQ all the mixes I send to you, I just meant that everything matters in theory and if you’re not coming from a place of confidence and experience it might not be the best idea. In all honesty I miss the upper mid bump I get from limiting my mixes when I turn it off. A good ME like yourself always gets it back where it needs to be. Your brickwall limiter adds an upper mid bump? Which limiter is that? Massey L2007, always sounds more mid-forward to me on the vibrant setting, and as I reference it a lot, I miss it when it’s off. |
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Post by trakworxmastering on Sept 8, 2019 17:41:08 GMT -6
Your brickwall limiter adds an upper mid bump? Which limiter is that? Massey L2007, always sounds more mid-forward to me on the vibrant setting, and as I reference it a lot, I miss it when it’s off. Will it still give you the mid bump if you put it on there with zero GR? Or you could shoot tones through it and see if you can make an EQ preset that approximates it. Or better still, just keep sending me your tracks! |
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Post by trakworxmastering on Sept 8, 2019 17:46:49 GMT -6
1) The client wants an extremely loud mix, even before mastering. 2) I need extremely punchy drums with huge bass to play LOUD. 1. You can make a loud reference mix and a soft mix for the ME. 2. You might find that using clipping for loudness on bass heavy material sometimes causes nasty unwanted distortion when those big LF waves clip hard. I gave up on using clipping for Hip Hop years ago for that reason. |
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