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Post by svart on Sept 3, 2019 21:11:54 GMT -6
I don't disagree with that. Heads make a major difference. I think what this video does is get drummers and engineers thinking about expanding the possibilities. But I guess it was obvious that it pushed a button with me that they didn't try harder to make the test consistent. Honestly, I don't even know if a shootout like this is even possible because there are so many variables. You might dismiss one of these heads, yet put it on a acrolite 5" drum and tune it slightly different and bam--you're in love. I do appreciate Svart "giving the drummer some." That doesn't happen much on RGO! By the way, you may want to just buy a couple of die cast hoops and try them on some drums you already own. You might find a good match waiting to happen. And you can mic it up with that EV DS35 because I was meaning to ask you if you've ever used that on snare! The DS35 is one of mine that died, but I've been off and on looking at tracking another one down. I never did find the best use for it, but probably from lack of trying. I don't really enjoy laboring over shootouts and stuff but you have to sometimes to learn your gear. I also wonder if head thickness, etc, affects the tuning of the drum regarding same tension / different pitches. I wouldn't be surprised. Some heads have a large propensity for bending a note so that it might be sharp at full hit, but natural or even flat during resonation, especially if they're tuned loose. And yeah, if they're using tension alone, sometimes heads will be at different notes for the same tension which is why I stopped using a tension gauge and started using a note-based tuner which is way more consistent.
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Post by lpedrum on Sept 3, 2019 21:19:21 GMT -6
But most drummers don't use die cast rims,
Almost all of the snare that i see in studio are with die cast rim, SIR rental got 90% of his snare with die cast.Ross Garfield drums rental also and Drums Paradise rental use die cast on almost all of there snare.!! Perhaps its a generational or regional thing. Hardly none of the hit records I grew up on in the 60s or 70s had die cast because few rock drummers played Gretsch drums. I can't speak for the current Nashville scene so I shouldn't. None of my professional drumming friends in the Northeast in the Blues, roots, singer songwriter genres use die cast rims except as a specialty drum from time to time. If you loved the video and found it helpful that's great. Sometimes our biases show here at RGO. You obviously love a different drum sound than I do, but the video for me wasn't in my wheelhouse.
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Post by lpedrum on Sept 3, 2019 21:35:40 GMT -6
I don't disagree with that. Heads make a major difference. I think what this video does is get drummers and engineers thinking about expanding the possibilities. But I guess it was obvious that it pushed a button with me that they didn't try harder to make the test consistent. Honestly, I don't even know if a shootout like this is even possible because there are so many variables. You might dismiss one of these heads, yet put it on a acrolite 5" drum and tune it slightly different and bam--you're in love. I do appreciate Svart "giving the drummer some." That doesn't happen much on RGO! By the way, you may want to just buy a couple of die cast hoops and try them on some drums you already own. You might find a good match waiting to happen. And you can mic it up with that EV DS35 because I was meaning to ask you if you've ever used that on snare! The DS35 is one of mine that died, but I've been off and on looking at tracking another one down. I never did find the best use for it, but probably from lack of trying. I don't really enjoy laboring over shootouts and stuff but you have to sometimes to learn your gear. I also wonder if head thickness, etc, affects the tuning of the drum regarding same tension / different pitches. I wouldn't be surprised. The DS35? Everything effects the tuning of a drum. And then when you bring it to a different studio or venue it sounds completely different! That's why I mostly use my old Steve Ferrone Pearl snare live. For some reason it's pretty consistent from room to room. What I like to do with my studio snares is find out through trial and error exactly how they sound best and then write that down so I don't forget. I sold 4 snare drums this summer because I just couldn't get them to do anything I LOVED. So they had to go. I'm saving for microphones!
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Post by junior on Sept 3, 2019 23:14:13 GMT -6
Almost all of the snare that i see in studio are with die cast rim, SIR rental got 90% of his snare with die cast.Ross Garfield drums rental also and Drums Paradise rental use die cast on almost all of there snare.!! I switched most of my snares to diecast. Easier to tune, stays in tune longer, better rimshots without the clank you get on tripleflanged hoops. I must be in the minority around here with die cast hoops, LOL. I have (and use) some but they definitely dry the sound out a bit and make things more controlled. On most drums, I definitely prefer a flanged hoop. Just so much more open and lively sounding, IMO.
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Post by bigbone on Sept 4, 2019 6:07:51 GMT -6
I switched most of my snares to diecast. Easier to tune, stays in tune longer, better rimshots without the clank you get on tripleflanged hoops. I must be in the minority around here with die cast hoops, LOL. I have (and use) some but they definitely dry the sound out a bit and make things more controlled. On most drums, I definitely prefer a flanged hoop. Just so much more open and lively sounding, IMO. All my snare got die cast rim exept my acrolite.
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Post by jampa on Sept 4, 2019 6:37:12 GMT -6
This is a compilation of three separate snare head comparison videos shot across nearly three years
Bearing in mind there are variables, e.g. the different drumsticks used; the bare floor vs drum rug underneath; the different recording sessions, etc.
I find it useful. If you want to separate it to each brand, you can find those videos on their channel. They've also done bass drum head comparisons
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Post by svart on Sept 4, 2019 8:31:37 GMT -6
I guess we all have different takes on this. I barely noticed that there was any difference in tuning and really noticed the differences in attack, decay and overtones, whereas others seem to focus on other things.
I'll say this though, I have a stack of snare heads that's 20+ years old and encompasses probably 2/3rds of the heads in that video. I can say with 100% certainty that the general tones you hear in that video are what you'll get from these heads in real life, based on my own experiences having tried most of them on about a dozen different snares in all those years.
The hard truth is that a good 75% of the tone of the drum comes from the head choice, which is what the video is really showing you. The attack and sustain qualities will change with bearing edge, stick choice and and the player's technique, but the tone is mostly the heads. The shell material can affect overtones and to some degree the attack and sustain.
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Post by drsax on Sept 4, 2019 8:51:43 GMT -6
Yeah, heads and rims dictate a lot of the sound. I try to keep a variety of different snares, different sizes, some die cast, some flanged, one wooden hooped, all with different tunings, generally the tuning that sounds best on each drum, so that come recording time, I’ve got different options available quickly. A few of my drums have that magic quality in the shell and see more use than others, but they all get used... But I agree about the heads/tuning and hoops dictating a lot of what happens soundwise.
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Post by bigbone on Sept 4, 2019 9:40:32 GMT -6
I would said drummer make the snare sound good,yes head play a major factor. but tone came from the player first, gear second.!!!!
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Post by lpedrum on Sept 4, 2019 18:17:03 GMT -6
The hard truth is that a good 75% of the tone of the drum comes from the head choice, which is what the video is really showing you. The attack and sustain qualities will change with bearing edge, stick choice and and the player's technique, but the tone is mostly the heads. The shell material can affect overtones and to some degree the attack and sustain. Svart--I love and learn from most of your posts because I'm somewhat of a newbie when it comes to electronics--and you're not! But in the spirit of helpful conversation I have to disagree on the emphasis you're putting on snare heads. Yes, heads can make a big difference, and having the variety to choose from is great for us drummers. But I don't think anyone would claim that 75% of a vintage J-45 acoustic guitar's tone comes from the string choice. And in my experience it's the same with drums. If you have a truly great snare you can put any company's equivalent of a coated single play head and that drum will sound consistently great. Sure, there are slight variations in sustain and feel, but the drum rules the day, not the head--in my experience anyway. Where I feel head choice comes in is deciding what works well with a given drum and the sounds we're searching for. That's especially true with bass drum heads. I do wish the video was more consistent with less variables. If someone did a shootout of u47 clones with that many variables in the mix we'd all have a good laugh about it. The video does give a small snippet of what might be possible with a head model and that's a good thing. Maybe someone will do a better snare head shootout at some point. Even though I may disagree with some of your assessments, I do appreciate you enthusiasm in getting a great snare sound!
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Post by Guitar on Sept 4, 2019 18:28:43 GMT -6
Guitar strings make a pretty big difference, too, but I think everyone would agree the money is in the guitar.
I agree that snare drums are very particular to themselves. You can clean up a wonky drum somewhat, with heads, wires and tuning. But it will never be as good as a great sounding drum, no matter how you tune it.
For example if you have a cheap brass snare with an annoying ring as a component of the shell tone, there is really no way to dial that out. happened to me. now I own a Black Beauty from Ludwig, had to go all the way. It paid off.
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Post by allbuttonmode on Sept 5, 2019 5:01:06 GMT -6
The idea for the video is great, but the way it's been done does not give a good comparison. None of the snares are tuned to the same pitch, the recordings are from a couple of different sessions, etc. There's no way to make a sound decision based on it.
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Post by allbuttonmode on Sept 5, 2019 5:07:11 GMT -6
For example if you have a cheap brass snare with an annoying ring as a component of the shell tone, there is really no way to dial that out. happened to me. now I own a Black Beauty from Ludwig, had to go all the way. It paid off. I had exactly the same problem, except the other way around. My problem snare is(was) a Ludwig Black Beauty. My cheap Maxwell brass shell snare plays and records way better.
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Post by Guitar on Sept 5, 2019 8:49:23 GMT -6
For example if you have a cheap brass snare with an annoying ring as a component of the shell tone, there is really no way to dial that out. happened to me. now I own a Black Beauty from Ludwig, had to go all the way. It paid off. I had exactly the same problem, except the other way around. My problem snare is(was) a Ludwig Black Beauty. My cheap Maxwell brass shell snare plays and records way better. Very interesting!
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Post by svart on Sept 5, 2019 9:12:58 GMT -6
The idea for the video is great, but the way it's been done does not give a good comparison. None of the snares are tuned to the same pitch, the recordings are from a couple of different sessions, etc. There's no way to make a sound decision based on it. I honestly don't understand you guys. I can make huuuuge assumptions based on the video and think it makes great comparisons. I really don't think pitch matters all that much because the overall tones of the heads don't change that much over pitch. I guess it's because I've tried dozens of snares and as many different heads on each one I've gotten a good all-around feel for how all these things work together and I find that this video really does well to give the overall tone and feeling of each of these heads, regardless of whether they're perfectly matched in pitch.
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Post by svart on Sept 5, 2019 9:15:39 GMT -6
For example if you have a cheap brass snare with an annoying ring as a component of the shell tone, there is really no way to dial that out. happened to me. now I own a Black Beauty from Ludwig, had to go all the way. It paid off. I had exactly the same problem, except the other way around. My problem snare is(was) a Ludwig Black Beauty. My cheap Maxwell brass shell snare plays and records way better. Wow, I'm with Monkey here too. My BB just sings perfectly. Go-to snare for recording. It's rather picky about the top head though and I found that a CS dot worked best. Sometimes a little moongel strategically placed to snuff a specific overtone helps but usually it's best wide open.
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Post by Guitar on Sept 5, 2019 9:18:16 GMT -6
I had exactly the same problem, except the other way around. My problem snare is(was) a Ludwig Black Beauty. My cheap Maxwell brass shell snare plays and records way better. Wow, I'm with Monkey here too. My BB just sings perfectly. Go-to snare for recording. It's rather picky about the top head though and I found that a CS dot worked best. Sometimes a little moongel strategically placed to snuff a specific overtone helps but usually it's best wide open. I arrived at the exact same place, somehow. Controled Sound reverse dot top head, and sometimes a single very small moongel piece near the top edge just to tame a tiny bit of that ring. with a normal 1 ply head or whatever I wasn't fully satisfied. I guess every drum has its own preferred heads when I look around at my snare collection. sometimes you gotta try a few to find it.
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Post by svart on Sept 5, 2019 9:39:10 GMT -6
Wow, I'm with Monkey here too. My BB just sings perfectly. Go-to snare for recording. It's rather picky about the top head though and I found that a CS dot worked best. Sometimes a little moongel strategically placed to snuff a specific overtone helps but usually it's best wide open. I arrived at the exact same place, somehow. Controled Sound reverse dot top head, and sometimes a single very small moongel piece near the top edge just to tame a tiny bit of that ring. with a normal 1 ply head or whatever I wasn't fully satisfied. I guess every drum has its own preferred heads when I look around at my snare collection. sometimes you gotta try a few to find it. I mentioned having a pile of heads.. I tried maybe 15 different heads on it over the years I guess. The CS dot just seems to fit. It's a medium single ply but that dot seems to fatten the attack and snuff a few of the most obnoxious overtones. Take half a moongel and start about an inch in from one lug. Move the moongel around the head alternating between each lug and halfway between each lug. You'll eventually find a perfect spot that doesn't kill the tone but will snuff out the worst of the remaining overtones. I think one of the things that drummers do that defeats themselves is that they just plop a moongel down on the head and call it good and never bother to take 20 minutes and find the best spot for that head and that drum.
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Post by Guitar on Sept 5, 2019 11:27:08 GMT -6
Yeah absolutely. Don't get me started on my opinions about "most" drummers. LOL.
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Post by allbuttonmode on Sept 5, 2019 15:41:37 GMT -6
The idea for the video is great, but the way it's been done does not give a good comparison. None of the snares are tuned to the same pitch, the recordings are from a couple of different sessions, etc. There's no way to make a sound decision based on it. I honestly don't understand you guys. I can make huuuuge assumptions based on the video and think it makes great comparisons. I really don't think pitch matters all that much because the overall tones of the heads don't change that much over pitch. I guess it's because I've tried dozens of snares and as many different heads on each one I've gotten a good all-around feel for how all these things work together and I find that this video really does well to give the overall tone and feeling of each of these heads, regardless of whether they're perfectly matched in pitch. Ok. Let’s agree to disagree.
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Post by soundintheround on Sept 5, 2019 16:03:17 GMT -6
This video is amazing. That would have taken me a lot of time to do myself. I hope he has one of those quick-drum key tuners. Lol
Great resource!
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Post by stormymondays on Sept 5, 2019 16:14:33 GMT -6
CS Reverse Dot on my Black Beauty as well! Ditto for using half a moongel. Some drummers are still scared of the ringiness, but I find it records great. It did take a lot more effort than I thought to dial it in, and I still get the feeling that it could be better somehow.
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Post by jampa on Sept 5, 2019 16:24:50 GMT -6
Just one perspective I think worth reiterating,
Can you imagine the time and money (drum heads) involved in making that video?
I'm ok that it's not "perfect". I still find it useful
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Post by mcirish on Sept 8, 2019 16:26:30 GMT -6
Great video. I tend to use the Evans HD Dry a lot in recordings but also like the CS rev dot on some snares. I know so many guys love the ambassadors, but man, those ring forever and I just couldn't get a usable recording from them. Another good video on snare heads.
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Post by askomiko on Sept 9, 2019 5:24:28 GMT -6
Here's another one:
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