kcatthedog
Temp
Super Helpful Dude
Posts: 15,091
Member is Online
|
Post by kcatthedog on Aug 7, 2019 10:49:09 GMT -6
In case anybody is looking: just saw an apparently good condition Toft board, asking $2995 Cdn so that’s like 2 grand usd.
Knobs sliders all felt good but surface could use a good clean.
For sale at Spaceman in ottawa Canada.
I’ll post a pic later.
|
|
kcatthedog
Temp
Super Helpful Dude
Posts: 15,091
Member is Online
|
Post by kcatthedog on Aug 7, 2019 11:02:37 GMT -6
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2019 13:11:02 GMT -6
Curious what the consensus on these things is now that many years have passed since they came out. I've always kept them in the back of my mind and think of them whenever I get into my "I hate mixing on a computer" mindset (so like twice a week).
|
|
kcatthedog
Temp
Super Helpful Dude
Posts: 15,091
Member is Online
|
Post by kcatthedog on Aug 7, 2019 13:43:55 GMT -6
I have heard good and bad about the build quality but haven’t used one.
I expected it to feel cheap but it didn’t, seemed built like a tank, heavy and solid.
|
|
|
Post by M57 on Aug 7, 2019 13:49:28 GMT -6
What is it you want/miss most? ..the tactile experience, or the sound? I'm hooked on total recall and automation - but I'm totally intrigued by the idea of a 'real' analog mixer. It made me imagine a completely analog box with nothing but analog I/O and maybe some meters, but with no knobs/faders, etc.? More than a summing mixer, it would have complete channel strips with EQ's, Compressors, etc ..most likely modeled after a well-known and desirable board. It would take up far less space than an actually board and could be supported by physical controllers of varying sizes - but most critically, it would have to be able to be controlled solely either by a DAW directly or possibly it's own DAW. Of course it would need an external DA/AD solution too. Making all of those EQ's and possibly compressors automateable sounds completely unrealistic, but it's an interesting thought experiment. Guess I should just suck it up and get a Console 1.
Sorry to go OT. ADHD strikes again. Back to your regularly scheduled program..
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Aug 7, 2019 14:54:23 GMT -6
What is it you want/miss most? ..the tactile experience, or the sound? I'm hooked on total recall and automation - but I'm totally intrigued by the idea of a 'real' analog mixer. It made me imagine a completely analog box with nothing but analog I/O and maybe some meters, but with no knobs/faders, etc.? More than a summing mixer, it would have complete channel strips with EQ's, Compressors, etc ..most likely modeled after a well-known and desirable board. It would take up far less space than an actually board and could be supported by physical controllers of varying sizes - but most critically, it would have to be able to be controlled solely either by a DAW directly or possibly it's own DAW. Of course it would need an external DA/AD solution too. Making all of those EQ's and possibly compressors automateable sounds completely unrealistic, but it's an interesting thought experiment. Guess I should just suck it up and get a Console 1. Sorry to go OT. ADHD strikes again. Back to your regularly scheduled program.. Why? One of the best things about an analog console is mixing on faders!
And why would you want to be tied to digital upgrade compatibility cycles? One of the coolest things about analog is that it's forever. More or less.
|
|
|
Post by svart on Aug 7, 2019 15:01:39 GMT -6
Curious what the consensus on these things is now that many years have passed since they came out. I've always kept them in the back of my mind and think of them whenever I get into my "I hate mixing on a computer" mindset (so like twice a week). It's iffy. Seems like they had a LOT of QA issues to start, and then ongoing maintenance issues in some units. Some folks got good units, some got units that needed constant work, and you don't know which one you're getting.. I'd say that they don't necessarily sound like the Tridents that they are wanting to be, but they don't sound bad either.
|
|
|
Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 7, 2019 15:36:40 GMT -6
Rev 1 would scare me away.
|
|
|
Post by M57 on Aug 7, 2019 16:38:35 GMT -6
Why? One of the best things about an analog console is mixing on faders! ..but the best thing is the sound, right? Yeah, I'm pretty sure I prefer knobs when I'm EQing, but that's what an interface is for. The sad truth is that I draw fader moves better and more accurately than I can actually make them. I want recall and automation.And why would you want to be tied to digital upgrade compatibility cycles? One of the coolest things about analog is that it's forever. More or less. Good point. ..but I still want recall and automation.
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Aug 7, 2019 17:10:03 GMT -6
My console has moving fader and mute automation.
As to recall of EQ, etc, there are these things called China markers. The come in colors, so you can recall multiple settings. They cost about a buck each at good hardware stores.
|
|
|
Post by M57 on Aug 7, 2019 17:45:18 GMT -6
I get it. The real thing is better, but I don't have room for a big desk, and I'm not use to having one anyway. This is more and more true for a LOT of home and project studios.
EQ and compressors in such a box would necessarily be remotely controlled, so it follows that they would be easily automated. Now I don't know for sure if modern engineers who work ITB automate things like EQ and compressors, but I'll bet some of them do. Basic routing to busses might be 'recallable' as well.
The viability of such a box in today's market would also be a function how inexpensive it is to manufacture vs. a board. The savings that can be had because there are no physical faders, knobs, buttons, though you'd still need motors, but they just wouldn't have to be as nearly as powerful. IDK, there might not be much savings there at all. Really, it's all about money in the end. It would definitely a bad idea if the retail price of such a piece of gear wasn't significantly less than the full monty.
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Aug 7, 2019 18:09:31 GMT -6
I did some research into the Toft series of consoles, a few years back.
There were build and design issues... some got addressed.
There were mods to bring out the best in the console but I know some techs stopped doing them as the work was too much.
If you are going to get a second hand console... I highly recommend a modular console, that you dont have to disconnect every cable and turn upside down to work on.
I have a highly modded Soundcraft Delta and would recommend it above most consoles certainly in the sub 10K range
Cheers
Wiz
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2019 8:28:50 GMT -6
Curious what the consensus on these things is now that many years have passed since they came out. I've always kept them in the back of my mind and think of them whenever I get into my "I hate mixing on a computer" mindset (so like twice a week). It's iffy. Seems like they had a LOT of QA issues to start, and then ongoing maintenance issues in some units. Some folks got good units, some got units that needed constant work, and you don't know which one you're getting.. I'd say that they don't necessarily sound like the Tridents that they are wanting to be, but they don't sound bad either. I remember reading a lot of reports about the build quality and issues in the beginning. I guess I was curious if all these years later, that had changed for the better. I definitely have zero interest in acquiring a lemon.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2019 8:32:37 GMT -6
What is it you want/miss most? ..the tactile experience, or the sound? I'm hooked on total recall and automation - but I'm totally intrigued by the idea of a 'real' analog mixer. It made me imagine a completely analog box with nothing but analog I/O and maybe some meters, but with no knobs/faders, etc.? More than a summing mixer, it would have complete channel strips with EQ's, Compressors, etc ..most likely modeled after a well-known and desirable board. It would take up far less space than an actually board and could be supported by physical controllers of varying sizes - but most critically, it would have to be able to be controlled solely either by a DAW directly or possibly it's own DAW. Of course it would need an external DA/AD solution too. Making all of those EQ's and possibly compressors automateable sounds completely unrealistic, but it's an interesting thought experiment. Guess I should just suck it up and get a Console 1. Sorry to go OT. ADHD strikes again. Back to your regularly scheduled program.. Tactile for sure, but also EQ on every channel and stuff like that. I also think I am able to make decisions and commit faster. Something about it... I just listen better. I have that problem where the visual component of the DAW and the plugins and all that gets in my head.
|
|
|
Post by adamjbrass on Aug 8, 2019 8:58:42 GMT -6
One of the coolest things about analog is that it's forever. More or less.
Sorry, but not this desk. I would expect repair and maintenance to be more of a consistent problem than updating software.
|
|
|
Post by swurveman on Aug 8, 2019 9:30:42 GMT -6
My console has moving fader and mute automation.
As to recall of EQ, etc, there are these things called China markers. The come in colors, so you can recall multiple settings. They cost about a buck each at good hardware stores.
The Toft ATB doesn't have fader automation.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 8, 2019 10:13:05 GMT -6
I was always interested in the Toft boards because they looked sharp and they were featured in a nearby Sam Ash store years ago. Thing is, they have lots of issues and don't sound that good. I chatted briefly with Malcom Toft at AES. He said he couldn't get the manufacturers to make the board the way he wanted and he kind of rolled his eyes. My interpretation was that he felt the Toft boards were a failure, and he'd moved on. Considering Toft's reputation from Trident, it was exciting to think a nicely featured board he designed could be sold at a relatively affordable price. SSL's new Six would excite me if it was 2-3X the price with 16 channels, but it is interesting.
What I really want does exist, but far beyond my reach. The Neve Genesys answers most of the issues many of us have between analogue and digital, just make sure you have $60,000 or more to spend.
Recently a friend played identical tracks for me with the only difference being one mix was digital, one analogue. The digital mix sounded excellent when listening critically. But then when I played the analogue mix my reaction was completely different. I wasn't listening to a mix, I was feeling the emotional content of the song. It wasn't a small difference either. I think much of what is online regarding plug-ins and digital production is far too analytical and lacks attention to what's really important, emotional communication. Listening to those two tracks convinced me that I would probably get better results with a board than I've been getting. Gear like the Dangerous Music 2 Bus + return quite a bit of the depth and wight of an analogue console, but I'm wary of the rabbit hole of gear collecting and sometimes think the old school method of putting all the tracks through the same preamps in a board has merit, much as I like different preamp flavors.
I'm thinking on trading in some preamps to get the SSL Six, just to see if that does it for me. That. or get a used Soundcraft board.. to be continued..
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Aug 8, 2019 11:17:12 GMT -6
One of the coolest things about analog is that it's forever. More or less.
Sorry, but not this desk. I would expect repair and maintenance to be more of a consistent problem than updating software. Well, you do have to "feed" them. But they're still forever, more or less. Software tends to become unexpectedly obsolete for no good reason and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it besides maintaining an "obsolete" machine and even that eventually won't work anymore. I constantly have to maintain my Studer but I don't really mind much. I just have to make sure I've got a few "sticks" of 5532s and 5534s around.
One thing I've noticed about the digital age is that most audio "engineers" have become increasingly divorced from the electronics tech side of things, which I don't really regard as a good thing... (DIY community excepted, of course.)
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Aug 8, 2019 11:21:47 GMT -6
My console has moving fader and mute automation.
As to recall of EQ, etc, there are these things called China markers. The come in colors, so you can recall multiple settings. They cost about a buck each at good hardware stores.
The Toft ATB doesn't have fader automation. Yeah, I know. I was just pointing out that automation is available on analog boards.
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Aug 8, 2019 11:41:57 GMT -6
I get it. The real thing is better, but I don't have room for a big desk, and I'm not use to having one anyway. This is more and more true for a LOT of home and project studios. Space can be a problem for some. Lots of people have "home studios" now in places that really aren't suitable. My approach to that is that I select living domiciles on the basis of suitabily for studio use above all else. But then I don't have a family situation to deal with.
People who routinely work in an analog environment typically develop a standardized setup for gear routing and channel assigns. It seems that many digital people appear to be much more haphazard about this. I don't really understand that, I find it confusing.
I don't get that bit about motors needing to be "more powerful" - the fader motors in my Soundcraft (ALPS) are downright wimpy.
Other than that, you do have a point there.
There are (or used to be) aftermarket automation systems available for many analog boards, but then there's the issue of cost-effectiveness.....
|
|
|
Post by Bat Lanyard on Aug 8, 2019 11:45:22 GMT -6
Recently a friend played identical tracks for me with the only difference being one mix was digital, one analogue. The digital mix sounded excellent when listening critically. But then when I played the analogue mix my reaction was completely different. I wasn't listening to a mix, I was feeling the emotional content of the song. It wasn't a small difference either. I think much of what is online regarding plug-ins and digital production is far too analytical and lacks attention to what's really important, emotional communication. Not to go too OT, but this point touches on Eric V.'s Tuning Speakers episode when he discussed what the mic is hearing and what our heads are hearing. He framed in such a simple, tangible way. Much like what you're saying here. Interesting on your conversation with Toft too. I was 100% planning around getting a Toft board when they came out. Seemed to be the exact answer to what I was after. Then, the forum posts started coming in and over a year or so I lost that plan. Also went back and forth on a modified Ghost. Finally found home with a hybrid setup though I'd love to have the bussing and sends of a real console.
|
|
|
Post by mitchkricun on Aug 9, 2019 13:06:37 GMT -6
I’m actually selling a Toft ATB24 (ver1) for $2200 if anyone is interested. Believe it or not, I’ve done hundreds of projects on it and honestly never had a problem that a little Deoxit didn’t fix. The only reason I’m selling it is because I’m not really recording enough large bands these days to justify it. I decided about two yrs ago to get my ITB chops up to par with my OTB chops, for the obvious reasons, and I’m still not there. Biggest difference for me is parallel compression on a console is so much bigger and punchier. I don’t know why, but using the same exact Compressor on an insert in my DAW just lacks the impact I get with a console. Same with using a hardware Transient Designer with a console versus insert on DAW. Still trying to figure it out. Maybe I just like the way consoles sound when pushed. Anyway, if you’re near Philly, NYC or DC hit me up if interested.
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Aug 12, 2019 11:45:36 GMT -6
I have one (defunct) Toft product. The stereo channel strip.
It burned gloriously one day, mid-session.
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Aug 13, 2019 11:16:54 GMT -6
I’m actually selling a Toft ATB24 (ver1) for $2200 if anyone is interested. Believe it or not, I’ve done hundreds of projects on it and honestly never had a problem that a little Deoxit didn’t fix. The only reason I’m selling it is because I’m not really recording enough large bands these days to justify it. I decided about two yrs ago to get my ITB chops up to par with my OTB chops, for the obvious reasons, and I’m still not there. Biggest difference for me is parallel compression on a console is so much bigger and punchier. I don’t know why, but using the same exact Compressor on an insert in my DAW just lacks the impact I get with a console. Same with using a hardware Transient Designer with a console versus insert on DAW. Still trying to figure it out. Maybe I just like the way consoles sound when pushed. Anyway, if you’re near Philly, NYC or DC hit me up if interested.
Do you use some hardware on the 2 bus?
|
|
|
Post by mitchkricun on Aug 13, 2019 12:00:04 GMT -6
[quote author=" mrholmes"
Do you use some hardware on the 2 bus?
[/quote] Yes, I usually use a pair of Capi’s-A Designs Hammer-Allan Smart Compressor. Why do you ask?
|
|