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Post by trakworxmastering on Aug 1, 2019 21:53:31 GMT -6
My Drawmer 1961 tube EQ employs 6 Edicron 12AU7s. These tubes impart a significant boost in the high mids and to a lesser extent the highs. I want to experiment with different tubes to get a flat frequency response. NOS Mullards are what I wanted to try but the price tag on those is discouraging. Can anyone recommend some 12AU7s with flat frequency response, low noise and great overall tone that won't break the bank? Thanks!
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 2, 2019 3:18:00 GMT -6
Just contact Bowie (Christian Whitmore), he will provide you with frank and expert detailed analysis of tubes that could work for you and an array of the options by price point he can offer.
I have had nothing but excellent advice and service from Bowie and recommend him to you without hesitation.
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Post by NoTomorrow on Aug 2, 2019 3:19:44 GMT -6
Talk to the member here named bowie..... he is the tube guru for everyone here.
I've purchased tubes from him based on everybody's recommendation and have not been disappointed.
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Post by NoTomorrow on Aug 2, 2019 3:20:31 GMT -6
ha simulpost Kcat
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Post by Vincent R. on Aug 2, 2019 6:24:11 GMT -6
bowie is the guy to speak with.
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Post by Ward on Aug 2, 2019 6:25:44 GMT -6
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Post by EmRR on Aug 2, 2019 6:46:49 GMT -6
12au7’s as a type have significant distortion and that’s gotta be what you are hearing. More expensive will not necessarily give you less distortion, it may give more. There’s not any more flat or less flat, tubes don’t do that. The circuit around them might.
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Post by svart on Aug 2, 2019 7:46:49 GMT -6
12au7’s as a type have significant distortion and that’s gotta be what you are hearing. More expensive will not necessarily give you less distortion, it may give more. There’s not any more flat or less flat, tubes don’t do that. The circuit around them might. ^ this. I was about to say the same thing. Although, try some cheap JJ's OR some OEM tubes like Bugeras which tend to have a slightly more scooped sound in guitar amps than other AU7's I've tried.. kinda the opposite of what you normally want in a guitar amp.. But I do mean slight. Also you can try ECC82 or ECC802, etc. As EMRR said, it's likely the circuitry around the tube, but some tubes react a bit differently depending on how they're made and used. Don't forget to burn them in some before you listen as they'll change tone slightly. It's best to make a recording of what you're getting now, then change tubes and burn them in, then make another recording of the same track and then A/B. You'll probably be surprised at how similar they are when done this way, but you'd swear you heard a greater difference when you do it just by ear alone. But I do have a box full of some amperex NOS 12au7's and I could send you a few if you just wanted to try something different. |
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Post by trakworxmastering on Aug 3, 2019 11:21:24 GMT -6
12au7’s as a type have significant distortion and that’s gotta be what you are hearing. More expensive will not necessarily give you less distortion, it may give more. There’s not any more flat or less flat, tubes don’t do that. The circuit around them might. Thanks. That may turn out to be true. Another ME told me that replacing the Edicrons with Mullards in his 1961 EQ got rid of the harsh mid/high end for him, so I thought it worth a try. But the cost of NOS Mullards is too high for an experiment like this. Hence this thread. Some subtle hint tells me I should talk to Bowie... |
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Post by popmann on Aug 3, 2019 12:05:37 GMT -6
the NEW Mullard RIs (New Sensor) have been the best I've found for amps. Now--does that equate to best for pro audio kit? Dunno--I just know that in my super driven amp that folds V1 over onto itself, I had an old stock Mullard that took the amp to another level--it went microphonic....and the new production ones sounds as good or better--mind you I swapped all THREE....so I went from JJs or something in V2/3 to three Mullard RIs(plus two 34s in the power)....but, I feel like I"m a picky bastid, and I didn't even mourn the old one when I played the new ones. I've had their EL84s....CV4004...EL34....all wonderful in amps. Again--picky bastid, and I'm happy with tehSOUND....the power tubes have had the life span of a fruit fly....but, they SOUND great. Anyway--I'd try those if they make a AU7....
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 4, 2019 16:50:18 GMT -6
I'm a bit late to the party, but here's another vote for Bowie.
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Post by bluegrassdan on Aug 4, 2019 23:36:53 GMT -6
I have nerded out over 12au7s to great extent. Here’s my opinion.
RCA cleartops - very open and detailed sound (great bargain)
RCA black and greyplates - more coloration
Telefunken - very neutral and hi fi
Mullard - kinda “smiley” eq curve
GE greyplates - kinda like RCA greyplates
Mazda - very punchy
Gotta say, at around $20 each, the RCA cleartops are hard to beat. They’re easily found and sound great.
If the circuit can handle higher heater current, you would be well served to try a 12BH7 in place of a 12AU7. In my opinion, a regular old RCA or GE 12BH7 will beat the pants off ANY 12AU7, no matter how expensive.
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Post by chessparov on Aug 5, 2019 0:41:58 GMT -6
Generally, how do you guys rate the Telefunken Black Diamond series?
Thanks, Chris
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Post by bluegrassdan on Aug 5, 2019 6:21:18 GMT -6
Generally, how do you guys rate the Telefunken Black Diamond series? Thanks, Chris I don’t know anything about them, other than they are a JJ tube made in Slovakia. |
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 5, 2019 23:15:43 GMT -6
Generally, how do you guys rate the Telefunken Black Diamond series? Thanks, Chris Besides the fact that they're not real Telefunkens, nothing.
Therec are no real new Telefunkens - the machines they were made on no longer exist as far as I know. And even if the machines existed, the metallurgy doesn't.
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Post by bluegrassdan on Aug 6, 2019 10:50:10 GMT -6
There are tons of NOS 12AU7s out there, usually for like $15-25 a pop. Buy a few and see what you like.
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Post by trakworxmastering on Aug 9, 2019 9:40:26 GMT -6
I followed the bowie advice and he gave me a better price than I found elsewhere on Mullards, so I'm getting 6 of them from him. This will be an interesting experiment if nothing else. If I don't prefer the Mullards over the Edicrons then at least I know they will have good resale value...
Thanks all!
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Post by Ward on Aug 9, 2019 9:45:12 GMT -6
Generally, how do you guys rate the Telefunken Black Diamond series? Thanks, Chris Besides the fact that they're not real Telefunkens, nothing. Therec are no real new Telefunkens - the machines they were made on no longer exist as far as I know. And even if the machines existed, the metallurgy doesn't.
My understanding from someone who worked for them is that Telefunken USA bought the machinery from Telefunken GMBH. Gesundheit and Farfignugen to you. |
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Post by damoongo on Aug 9, 2019 10:11:54 GMT -6
Besides the fact that they're not real Telefunkens, nothing. Therec are no real new Telefunkens - the machines they were made on no longer exist as far as I know. And even if the machines existed, the metallurgy doesn't.
My understanding from someone who worked for them is that Telefunken USA bought the machinery from Telefunken GMBH. Gesundheit and Farfignugen to you. No. They are made at the JJ factory. They are in fact JJ’s that then get tested and frozen (“cryogenically treated”) and labelled as Telefunken. |
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Post by Ward on Aug 9, 2019 12:31:02 GMT -6
Curious
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Post by chessparov on Aug 9, 2019 14:48:39 GMT -6
What's next then? A Telefunken Walt Disney?
Chris
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 9, 2019 14:56:28 GMT -6
Besides the fact that they're not real Telefunkens, nothing. Therec are no real new Telefunkens - the machines they were made on no longer exist as far as I know. And even if the machines existed, the metallurgy doesn't.
My understanding from someone who worked for them is that Telefunken USA bought the machinery from Telefunken GMBH. Gesundheit and Farfignugen to you. That's interesting if true, but I have not heard anything about that and one would think that if it's true they'd be publicizing the hell out of it. But even if it is true that doesn't solve the metallurgy problem. And the skilled technicians from the original Telefunken tube factories aren't available. Furthermore it is my understanding that the primary reason that tubes are not manufactured outside of former communist bloc countries is that there are severe problems with environmental laws that prevent manufacture in places with enviromental protections.
Can you furnish any sort of documentation or references to back up your friend's assertion?
bowie, are you following this discussion? |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 9, 2019 14:58:05 GMT -6
I had tried 5 or 6 different tubes in a THD guitar amp which allows tubes to be changed without biasing. I had 5 NOS vintage tubes, some costing more than $100, and a new JJ. The JJ was so much better than every one of them, it was a joke. So, you never know until you try a few tubes.
Bowie is great to work with. Keep us posted once you get the new tubes.
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Post by Ward on Aug 9, 2019 17:48:41 GMT -6
My understanding from someone who worked for them is that Telefunken USA bought the machinery from Telefunken GMBH. Gesundheit and Farfignugen to you. That's interesting if true, but I have not heard anything about that and one would think that if it's true they'd be publicizing the hell out of it. But even if it is true that doesn't solve the metallurgy problem. And the skilled technicians from the original Telefunken tube factories aren't available. Furthermore it is my understanding that the primary reason that tubes are not manufactured outside of former communist bloc countries is that there are severe problems with environmental laws that prevent manufacture in places with enviromental protections. Can you furnish any sort of documentation or references to back up your friend's assertion? bowie, are you following this discussion? It came from a solid source who has since retired and I'm one of those who doesn't demand empirical evidence for everything but someone who I've known for a very very long time and trusted, gets my trust. PM'ec |
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Post by bowie on Aug 9, 2019 18:01:15 GMT -6
My understanding from someone who worked for them is that Telefunken USA bought the machinery from Telefunken GMBH. Gesundheit and Farfignugen to you. That's interesting if true, but I have not heard anything about that and one would think that if it's true they'd be publicizing the hell out of it. But even if it is true that doesn't solve the metallurgy problem. And the skilled technicians from the original Telefunken tube factories aren't available. Furthermore it is my understanding that the primary reason that tubes are not manufactured outside of former communist bloc countries is that there are severe problems with environmental laws that prevent manufacture in places with enviromental protections.
Can you furnish any sort of documentation or references to back up your friend's assertion?
bowie , are you following this discussion? I've heard some very strong opinions from people who have tried them. I have a few. I'm not going to publicly comment. Regarding making tubes with factory dies and equipment, it means almost nothing. Some of the Ei made tubes on old Telefunken equipment sound nothing like Telefunkens. Same for the JJs made on Tesla gear. There's a lot, i mean a LOT to be said for the materials and the actual techniques used. Tubes are put together by hand and there's a lot more that goes into them than people realize. Even tubes from the exact same batch have different bias, noise levels, gas, etc. Substitute different materials, techniques, staff, and you have a different tube. |
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