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Post by ragan on Jul 30, 2019 12:54:16 GMT -6
Martin John Butler I just listened blind to the second round of clips. I like the TC with the EF8056s best. Nice detail but it's smoother. I don't think I really care for that Siemens tube, myself. Sounds a little sterile and bright for me. I'd love to hear either capsule with the EF806s through your SA-73. I think it might get closer to that sound you're chasing.
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 30, 2019 13:08:07 GMT -6
Martin John Butler I just listened blind to the second round of clips. I like the TC with the EF8056s best. Nice detail but it's smoother. I don't think I really care for that Siemens tube, myself. Sounds a little sterile and bright for me. I'd love to hear either capsule with the EF806s through your SA-73. I think it might get closer to that sound you're chasing. Isn't the D4 kind of a bright preamp?
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Post by stam on Jul 30, 2019 13:24:22 GMT -6
If we tally them up though, we need to state which tube was in a given mic when it got a 'vote'. Some of those votes could be/likely are preferences for a tube rather than a capsule. I'm going to download the clips and do them blind so I can give a fair vote. Thanks for the DL link. Absolutely. Zero doubt on that. At this point, it's too confusing to even speculate IMO. Neither approaches the vintage 67 - and that's the target, right? Trust me, they do. I will publish a blind video vs the original but for preliminary tests we could not tell them apart and I am extremely picky and meticulous with matching old mics Talk is cheap though, hopefully the video will please you
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Post by ragan on Jul 30, 2019 13:28:02 GMT -6
Martin John Butler I just listened blind to the second round of clips. I like the TC with the EF8056s best. Nice detail but it's smoother. I don't think I really care for that Siemens tube, myself. Sounds a little sterile and bright for me. I'd love to hear either capsule with the EF806s through your SA-73. I think it might get closer to that sound you're chasing. Isn't the D4 kind of a bright preamp? I don’t know. It’s going for the REDD47 vibe but it was kind of a short lived product and most of us haven’t used it. 67 —> 1073 on the other hand is a sound we’re all familiar with, whether from owning/using versions of that chain or just from the fact that’s it’s all over many of our favorite records and throughly embedded in the sonic canon.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Jul 30, 2019 13:38:20 GMT -6
I wouldn’t characterize the D4 as bright. I had 2.
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Post by Vincent R. on Jul 30, 2019 13:58:49 GMT -6
Probably not. I have the distinct impression that I won't like your favorite, but that's OK - someone will believe and think it's great. Back and forth with Tim leads me to believe you are heading in a direction that I feel in not the right approach for a 67 clone. And like I told him, that's OK, but it's not what a lot of us want from a 67. We have other mics that deliver that top end for us. Therein lies the rub. Every company making replicas/clones/tributes, etc has their own idea of what the ideal version of those vintage mics sound like. We all have to pick the one that serves our own aesthetic......and then pray we can afford it.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 30, 2019 14:26:17 GMT -6
How do you calibrate? In the PSU? Trimmer pot or something? Which pin am I measuring? Or does that depend on the mic? Not sure about the Stam clones, but in my mid 60’s u67’s PSU’s (nu67’s) there are trim pots for the heater (filament) voltage. The b+ has no trimmer and you need to change resistors to get it right (210VDC off the top of my head). Disclaimer: Please be careful in there. Lethal DC voltages are present. If you are not used to working around high voltages, get a tech to do it and show you... These things can bite you even when unplugged from the AC outlet. The nu67 specs 6.5V assuming some loss in the connecting cable.....which was what length? 210V is correct, but it could be +/-10% with the tube itself having more effect, since there's a 150K resistor between it and the tube inside the mic. 75V at the plate of the tube, after that resistor, so that 210V could be adjusted to anything that gives +/-10% of 75V.....which one really shouldn't have to do, change the tube because it's not in spec, actually. No trims in a Max MK67 PSU. Didn't notice voltage changes with myriad tube rolling. Generally not all that critical here, not like a U47 circuit at all which uses a single voltage for heater and plate, with a dropping resistor for heater. Change the cable wire gauge or length from mic to PSU will change the heater voltage, slightly. 6.3V tubes are designed for 6-6.6V operation tolerance, many run fine with no obvious changes down to 5.7V. I've never seen significant gain changes in small signal tubes at 5.5V, but yes, on power tubes for sure. Nor for B+ changes within 20%: doubling or halving voltage is usually a 6dB move, if the circuit can even take it. There are arguments (and measurements) out there showing life and distortion improvements when underheated, for some tube types.
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Post by drbill on Jul 30, 2019 14:41:46 GMT -6
Absolutely. Zero doubt on that. At this point, it's too confusing to even speculate IMO. Neither approaches the vintage 67 - and that's the target, right? Trust me, they do. I will publish a blind video vs the original but for preliminary tests we could not tell them apart and I am extremely picky and meticulous with matching old mics Talk is cheap though, hopefully the video will please you That's my point exactly. From Tim's comments, I don't think that your choice of vintage 67 to clone is one that I would have chosen given the choice. Therefore even if you get the clone perfectly dead on, it's not a mic I would have chosen. I agree with Vincent - every company chooses their own esthetic of a particular mic, and from what I can tell, the esthetic you have chosen doesn't match up with my U67 experience. My $0.02. Take it for what it's worth.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 30, 2019 14:56:24 GMT -6
Hi guys, I posted this for myself, not in partnership with a manufacturer. Obviously I can't control who joins in on a thread, and I'm glad to hear from any manufacturer online because it's a tough crowd most times, and most steer clear. I'm friendly with a number of manufacturers and I'm one of many experienced ears they reach out to occasionally. This is a natural thing, I'm not world famous, but I'm not unknown, we attend trade shows, like some of the same music and productions and generally love really good sounding gear.
I'm friendly with Joshua from Stam in the same way I'm friendly with a dozen manufacturers. I want to see them all win because they're doing some wonderful things within my budget. Also, I'm aware there were some quality control disputes between Stam and Heiserman, but I had no personal issues with them. In fact as i mentioned earlier I chose the Heiserman cap when asked for an opinion a long while ago.
I'm sorry about the confusing nature with different tubes in mics with different capsules, I know it's not exactly a perfect shootout, but it seems people here enjoyed what was posted. For those who don't post too often, try putting something like this together, record a dozen tracks, mix tracks, bounce, upload, notate and share here. You'll see it ain't as easy as it looks, so a little slack would be appreciated.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 30, 2019 15:01:19 GMT -6
Ragan, now I've gotta go back and listen again. Our ears are usually very close, so the T.C. cap with the EF806S sort of passed me by.
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Post by chessparov on Jul 30, 2019 15:07:09 GMT -6
I think MJB, sometimes as a group, we're like a spin-off from the "Big Bang Theory". Please forgive us, as this thread rests in absolute "Nerd Fest" territory for all of us. I'm confident everyone here, really appreciates what you're doing here-Going beyond the Call of Duty! Now could you just run everthing again-just one more time, through an original Pultec? Chris
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 30, 2019 15:16:30 GMT -6
Ragan,just listened again, and the tracks with the T.C cap and the Tele tube sound the most like the Max Mod 67! No wonder you dig it :-)
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Post by ragan on Jul 30, 2019 15:28:48 GMT -6
Ragan,just listened again, and the tracks with the T.C cap and the Tele tube sound the most like the Max Mod 67! No wonder you dig it :-) What I did, and what I do often, is take the phrase I think would challenge the mic most and loop it. Then with a keystroke and with my eyes closed I toggle back and forth and see which one seems to handle it better. In your clip it was "but the love that we lost/can find us again". It's got some dynamics, some esses, etc. To my ear, the TC with the EF806s sounds the most like the clip of you on that vintage U67. A flattering, large sort of sound that cushions the voice and sort of invites a listener in. That's what that vintage U67 did for your voice and out of these samples, the TC/EF806s has the most of those qualities to me.
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Post by Quint on Jul 30, 2019 15:34:45 GMT -6
Ragan,just listened again, and the tracks with the T.C cap and the Tele tube sound the most like the Max Mod 67! No wonder you dig it :-) What I did, and what I do often, is take the phrase I think would challenge the mic most and loop it. Then with a keystroke and with my eyes closed I toggle back and forth and see which one seems to handle it better. In your clip it was "but the love that we lost/can find us again". It's got some dynamics, some esses, etc. To my ear, the TC with the EF806s sounds the most like the clip of you on that vintage U67. A flattering, large sort of sound that cushions the voice and sort of invites a listener in. That's what that vintage U67 did for your voice and out of these samples, the TC/EF806s has the most of those qualities to me. I just wish your Max Mod 67 was mixed into all of this testing. I thought it sounded great from the clips you've posted.
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Post by stam on Jul 30, 2019 15:37:20 GMT -6
Trust me, they do. I will publish a blind video vs the original but for preliminary tests we could not tell them apart and I am extremely picky and meticulous with matching old mics Talk is cheap though, hopefully the video will please you That's my point exactly. From Tim's comments, I don't think that your choice of vintage 67 to clone is one that I would have chosen given the choice. Therefore even if you get the clone perfectly dead on, it's not a mic I would have chosen. I agree with Vincent - every company chooses their own esthetic of a particular mic, and from what I can tell, the esthetic you have chosen doesn't match up with my U67 experience. My $0.02. Take it for what it's worth. I can't see on how that can be a case since I have 9 of them and 3 pristine vintage ones which sound pretty much the same But anyways, we can see later on the video
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Post by Johnkenn on Jul 30, 2019 15:53:54 GMT -6
I'm comparing these two capsules. Currently the SA67 with the Heiserman capsule has a Telefunken EF86 tube, and the Tim Campbell capsule mic has a Siemens tube. I will swap the tubes to see which I prefer later, but for now, let me know which mic you prefer, #1 or #2. All Mic #1 tracks are the same mic, all Mic #2 Tracks are the same mic. For purposes of the comparison, I recorded as flat as can be, no compression at all, no EQ, just a slight pinch of reverb. I matched levels as best as I could. https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/sa67-ac-gtr-mic-1https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/sa67-ac-gtr-mic-2https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/sa67-solo-vocal-mic-1https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/sa67-solo-vocal-mic-2https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/sa67-ac-gtr-vocal-mic-1https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/sa67-ac-gtr-vocal-mic-2I preferred the Heiserman in this...
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Post by drbill on Jul 30, 2019 15:59:12 GMT -6
That's my point exactly. From Tim's comments, I don't think that your choice of vintage 67 to clone is one that I would have chosen given the choice. Therefore even if you get the clone perfectly dead on, it's not a mic I would have chosen. I agree with Vincent - every company chooses their own esthetic of a particular mic, and from what I can tell, the esthetic you have chosen doesn't match up with my U67 experience. My $0.02. Take it for what it's worth. I can't see on how that can be a case since I have 9 of them and 3 pristine vintage ones which sound pretty much the same But anyways, we can see later on the video From my perspective on the mics I've used at Capitol and other places, either your examples are off, or your recreations are off. That's my perspective and again, take it for what it's worth. $0.02.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 30, 2019 16:45:48 GMT -6
Good to hear from you John, appreciate your ears on this.
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Post by stam on Jul 31, 2019 3:03:22 GMT -6
I can't see on how that can be a case since I have 9 of them and 3 pristine vintage ones which sound pretty much the same But anyways, we can see later on the video From my perspective on the mics I've used at Capitol and other places, either your examples are off, or your recreations are off. That's my perspective and again, take it for what it's worth. $0.02. This is off to you ? On the blind shootout poll we did 60% thought ours was the Vintage 67 and almost 100% thought ours to be the either the original or re-issue. Ends up the re-issue is way different from the original and our charts don't lie, the frequency response is virtually identical. You can be very objective with numbers when matching THD, curves, SPL, noise, etc..
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Post by mike on Jul 31, 2019 5:01:52 GMT -6
Martin John Butler I just listened blind to the second round of clips. I like the TC with the EF8056s best. Nice detail but it's smoother. I don't think I really care for that Siemens tube, myself. Sounds a little sterile and bright for me. I'd love to hear either capsule with the EF806s through your SA-73. I think it might get closer to that sound you're chasing.
I had similar thoughts finding the TC cap smoother,..... and the siemans tube likeable in some ways but a little bright/peaky in a upper freq.
I also have to wonder if a different NOS 806s tube would be more robust than that particular one based on some other examples of 806's I've heard that sounded exceptional.
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Post by sirthought on Jul 31, 2019 6:46:14 GMT -6
If you keep bringing it up again and again in every thread, is it more than 2 cents? Martin, perhaps this free software to do an A/B listening test will help you choose the right combo. As I stated they are both professional setups and you're gonna reach for that EQ option in the end anyway...pick the one that sounds best to you! hofa-plugins.de/en/plugins/4u-blindtest/ (There is a free version and a paid version. Difference is number of clips you can test.)
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 31, 2019 8:31:45 GMT -6
Thanks sirthought, I'll take a good look at that tomorrow when I have a little time. No reason I wouldn't try a couple of tubes once I settle on the mic. Stam has mentioned he has a "darker" SA67 with the TC cap. I'm hoping that might split the difference between the two.
To explain how I got started down this path, when I first got the Heiserman cap SA67 it sounded strange, like the pickup pattern was collapsing instead of expanding, and it was a muddy. Joshua was kind enough to send me another one to try. When I was about to begin the recording process to compare them, I was curious to confirm which tubes were in both mics, took of the body, and I carefully used a very light air gun spray to clean any dust and made sure the tubes were seated properly. (No, I didn't spray air at the capsule ;-)
The next time I tried the Heiserman cap mic, it sounded OK. So, who knows what was up, maybe something was misaligned after traveling from Chile to New York, I have no idea.
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Post by drbill on Jul 31, 2019 9:49:24 GMT -6
From my perspective on the mics I've used at Capitol and other places, either your examples are off, or your recreations are off. That's my perspective and again, take it for what it's worth. $0.02. This is off to you ? On the blind shootout poll we did 60% thought ours was the Vintage 67 and almost 100% thought ours to be the either the original or re-issue. Ends up the re-issue is way different from the original and our charts don't lie, the frequency response is virtually identical. You can be very objective with numbers when matching THD, curves, SPL, noise, etc.. Those examples sound pretty good!! To my ears quite different than what Martin was singing through. Maybe it's his room? Or mic pre? Or??
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 31, 2019 10:25:33 GMT -6
Could be drbill, the next time I track, I'll try the SA73 preamp. I think the tubes affected tone much more than we expected. In time i'll figure out where it's at. I'll keep working with the mics until I'm sure of what I'm hearing.
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Post by seawell on Jul 31, 2019 12:26:06 GMT -6
From my perspective on the mics I've used at Capitol and other places, either your examples are off, or your recreations are off. That's my perspective and again, take it for what it's worth. $0.02. This is off to you ? On the blind shootout poll we did 60% thought ours was the Vintage 67 and almost 100% thought ours to be the either the original or re-issue. Ends up the re-issue is way different from the original and our charts don't lie, the frequency response is virtually identical. You can be very objective with numbers when matching THD, curves, SPL, noise, etc.. Sounds amazing! The mic in this video is the heiserman capsule, correct?
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