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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 28, 2014 13:07:59 GMT -6
John, it takes a little time, and the fog begins to disperse, and Logic becomes quite logical. I'm still only midway in my skills with it, as I had a late start, but once you get a few keyboard shortcuts down, it's a breeze. Some of Logic's plugs are extraordinary. The EQ on every channel with an analyzer built in is completely transparent, the guitar plugs are as good as most popular brands, ( their Fender's are extremely close), their Drummer is really Superior Drummer with 20 free drummers, there's a convolution reverb, and if you do use pitch corrections sometimes, their Flex Pitch is better than the other brands, (like WavesTune), automation's easy, just click the automation icon, double click on the track, and you get the piano roll for editing. Once you learn to hit T, to get the toolbar, to make your pointer do what you want, editing drums is not too difficult at all. Hell, there are even 3 or 4 killer pedals available.
Give it another go. If you have an Apple store near you, pay $99, and you'll get a year one to one help with an expert. Those computer tech uys charge a fortune and the Logic Pro's there know their stuff.
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Post by adogg4629 on Feb 28, 2014 13:18:08 GMT -6
I've loved Avid's products since the early '90s for Professional level audio and video post production. As a corporate entity though, I am continually amazed at the arrogance they display in their business. They can't do an audio product launch to save their life. They need a Steven Slate to wield a reality distortion field around their products and go full bore trying to sell them. Yes, in the post production biz, there really isn't another game in town (I am aware of Nuendo and Fairlight but the reality is Pro Tools' adoption rate in post is orders of magnitude greater than anybody else). I think they should either be sold or they should go private. The worst thing that could happen would be their assets being sold off piecemeal. Sadly, with PT11 and MC 7, they have their strongest offerings for post workflow by far. I just want it to remain that way.
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Post by adogg4629 on Feb 28, 2014 13:29:01 GMT -6
When they made it so that people couldn't use older plugins in PT 11 and then they started not supporting older hardware for PT 11 that could've been their nail in the coffin. They better get busy finding a free way for people to use their old plugins, and get off their ass and provide support to people that spent 10's of thousands on their hardware that they are saying they won't support. This pissed a lot of people off, including myself. If Avid wants to fix this, they need to create a temporary way for Rtas and 32bitAAx to work in PT11. Then they need to step up and provide support for all their products, older and new. Ditch the artist series crap and start making some gear that actually fells and functions like real gear. They relied on the plug devs to take care of all of this, and the ones people are using the most pretty much said screw you, we'll do it when we want. It's killing Avid. I think they were kind of damned if they do...damned if they don't. I believe they had to totally re-write PT11...and RTAS is just old technology. But maybe I'm giving them too much credit. Sadly, it's not a question of them wanting to, but a question of math. You need the type of virtualisation and real time conversion/translation of 32 bit code into 64 bit code. There are third party programs that do that. They don't do it well. So far the most reliable solution that anybody has come up with is to run the 32 bit programs on a different machine and send the audio over AoE to your host DAW machine. Both are unworkable solutions. It really is up to the developers to provide working updates of their plugins so they may be used in a 64 bit environment. We're getting to the point where computers wont be able to run anything unless it's 64 bit. Just yesterday, Apple even announced that they are officially killing off Snow Leopard, which is essentially their bridge OS between 32 and 64 bit (much like PT10). |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Feb 28, 2014 16:21:33 GMT -6
Pro Tools is standard for the very same reason ADAT or 1" 16 track never replaced 2" analog multitracks. People use it to protect their investment in recordings simply because it isn't going away anytime soon.
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Post by jeromemason on Feb 28, 2014 16:30:25 GMT -6
When they made it so that people couldn't use older plugins in PT 11 and then they started not supporting older hardware for PT 11 that could've been their nail in the coffin. They better get busy finding a free way for people to use their old plugins, and get off their ass and provide support to people that spent 10's of thousands on their hardware that they are saying they won't support. This pissed a lot of people off, including myself. If Avid wants to fix this, they need to create a temporary way for Rtas and 32bitAAx to work in PT11. Then they need to step up and provide support for all their products, older and new. Ditch the artist series crap and start making some gear that actually fells and functions like real gear. They relied on the plug devs to take care of all of this, and the ones people are using the most pretty much said screw you, we'll do it when we want. It's killing Avid. I think they were kind of damned if they do...damned if they don't. I believe they had to totally re-write PT11...and RTAS is just old technology. But maybe I'm giving them too much credit. I agree with ya, but couldn't they had built some type of plugin that allowed people to use RTAS for say a specific amount of time until all the plugin devs got everything ported over? I mean they are loosing their ass because Slate hasn't ported most of their best plugs to AAX 64. Just about every person I know will always say this, "Nah, havn't went there yet because the Slate stuff isn't ported". That's pretty significant, and SS is causing Avid to loose a ton of business. If they were smart they'd go out and either A.) make a holder for RTAS in 11, B.) contact all the boutique plugin devs and pay them to port over. It's Avid's fault, they got arrogant. Pensado had Lombardi on his show and was at that time clearly showing frustration about this. Of course Avid is a massive sponsor to him so that just sort of died really quickly, but even Dave was clearly frustrated by this. I understand RTAS is archaic and I agree it should be dissolved, but Avid should had taken a few more steps to ensure when they went to the floor with 11 that everyone could go there with no issues. Now they are in the red and are praying for the devs to get the plugins ported. Another problem is that since they did this, a ton of people are just going on to other DAW's. Reaper is really gaining traction, Cubase is getting more sales, Mixbus is selling like hotcakes..... if Avid doesn't do something really soon about this it could be the end. |
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Post by popmann on Feb 28, 2014 17:12:24 GMT -6
did she strip her way THROUGH Full Sail? If so...we might've known the same girl I do not know what she did for a living after she moved to to FL to attend FS, but she worked at a few clubs in Phoenix for a couple of years prior. My mind is failing me, but I remember her name as "Holly", originally from Michigan's upper peninsula. A "U-per", using the slang local to the region. She was 5'6"-ish, 110lb or so, slender, dark hair, wore glasses. Very beautiful and had a sweet personality. It was a long time ago. I hope she is doing well. Nah...pretty sure mine was native to O-Town...wouldn't it be funny if there's a high correlation of female Full Sail student to Stripper as living...ha... |
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Post by drbill on Feb 28, 2014 17:37:53 GMT -6
<<I give up on the quoting within nested quotes thing>> jeromemason said "if Avid doesn't do something really soon about this it could be the end. "  We've been hearing that for long over a decade - and sooner or later, odds are someone will say it and it might happen. But for the haters, don't get too excited just yet. I don't think PT is going anywhere. 10 years from now, it will still be the standard. Maybe AVID will be out of the picture - even though it never ceases to amaze me that they keep on keeping on - but there are well over a hundred thousand hard core PT users that don't want to change to Reaper or Logic or Cubase. You never hear from them - they are too busy turning out work. Only from the haters. PT is alive and well. Avid??? Well, time will tell.  |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 28, 2014 17:42:24 GMT -6
I think they were kind of damned if they do...damned if they don't. I believe they had to totally re-write PT11...and RTAS is just old technology. But maybe I'm giving them too much credit. I agree with ya, but couldn't they had built some type of plugin that allowed people to use RTAS for say a specific amount of time until all the plugin devs got everything ported over? I mean they are loosing their ass because Slate hasn't ported most of their best plugs to AAX 64. Just about every person I know will always say this, "Nah, havn't went there yet because the Slate stuff isn't ported". That's pretty significant, and SS is causing Avid to loose a ton of business. If they were smart they'd go out and either A.) make a holder for RTAS in 11, B.) contact all the boutique plugin devs and pay them to port over. It's Avid's fault, they got arrogant. Pensado had Lombardi on his show and was at that time clearly showing frustration about this. Of course Avid is a massive sponsor to him so that just sort of died really quickly, but even Dave was clearly frustrated by this. I understand RTAS is archaic and I agree it should be dissolved, but Avid should had taken a few more steps to ensure when they went to the floor with 11 that everyone could go there with no issues. Now they are in the red and are praying for the devs to get the plugins ported. Another problem is that since they did this, a ton of people are just going on to other DAW's. Reaper is really gaining traction, Cubase is getting more sales, Mixbus is selling like hotcakes..... if Avid doesn't do something really soon about this it could be the end. 10 was supposed to be the version when AAX took over, but they stayed 32 bit and kept RTAS in place. Now, with 11, they're allowing a co-install of 10 so that you can still use your old plugs when necessary. Avid has been in financial trouble for years, the 11 switch isn't causing their problems. The plug devs have been aware of the switch for years, some just didn't get their ducks in a row when they found out and are now lagging behind. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 28, 2014 17:48:13 GMT -6
<<I give up on the quoting within nested quotes thing>> Â jeromemason said "if Avid doesn't do something really soon about this it could be the end. " Â We've been hearing that for long over a decade - and sooner or later, odds are someone will say it and it might happen. Â But for the haters, don't get too excited just yet. Â I don't think PT is going anywhere. Â 10 years from now, it will still be the standard. Â Maybe AVID will be out of the picture - even though it never ceases to amaze me that they keep on keeping on - but there are well over a hundred thousand hard core PT users that don't want to change to Reaper or Logic or Cubase. Â You never hear from them - they are too busy turning out work. Â Only from the haters. Â Â PT is alive and well. Â Avid??? Â Well, time will tell. Â Right on. |
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Post by jeromemason on Feb 28, 2014 18:08:39 GMT -6
<<I give up on the quoting within nested quotes thing>> jeromemason said "if Avid doesn't do something really soon about this it could be the end. " We've been hearing that for long over a decade - and sooner or later, odds are someone will say it and it might happen. But for the haters, don't get too excited just yet. I don't think PT is going anywhere. 10 years from now, it will still be the standard. Maybe AVID will be out of the picture - even though it never ceases to amaze me that they keep on keeping on - but there are well over a hundred thousand hard core PT users that don't want to change to Reaper or Logic or Cubase. You never hear from them - they are too busy turning out work. Only from the haters. PT is alive and well. Avid??? Well, time will tell. I agree with you to some degree. My only thing is that Avid is leveraged up with all of it's other departments. PT has been the industry standard for as long as I've been doing this, I agree, I don't see it going anywhere, but IMHO I believe Avid has a long hard bumpy road ahead and it's going to take some serious CYA to fix this. I mean going from a listed stock on the Nasdaq, and then getting delisted to an OTC.... now they won't be able to sell common shares to people buying from TD Ameritrade and online brokers (well they can, it's just not an easy process, and cost's the investor more to buy in)..... that's a pretty big deal and it's going to kill their share value. They took a nasty tumble on 2/24 and the shorts are buying like crazy to cover, so it caused the value to jump yesterday and today. But once all the shorts are out of the game that stock is going to take a nasty nasty nose dive. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 28, 2014 18:18:34 GMT -6
My God - I tried to build something in Logic X the other day and I was hopelessly lost...but - it's dealing with the same things, though...half my plugs don't work in it because it's 64 bit... John, I'm on Logic since Logic 5. I used Pro Tools before that, but once I found Logic, I was only too happy to switch. Most of my plugins became 64-bit over the last 2-3 years, many for free, some for an acceptable upgrade fee. I'm still on Logic 9, it runs absolutely stable and hassle-free, so I don't see the need to upgrade to X. For Logic X, I would get 32 Lives as a 32-bit bridge, apparently it works fine in Logic X. There are some plugs that will never be ported to 64-bit, but that's hardly Apple's fault. Some of those I love and I would use the bridge to keep using them in Logic X, if I ever upgrade. Been using the 32-bit bridge in Logic for years and don't understand the fuzz people make, it's absolutely no problem for me. The writing for Avid has been on the wall for some time. Sorry for those who ignored it and hailed Pro Tools 11 as the saviour - Pro Tools has always sucked and still does. I won't shed a tear. Well, I totally disagree with you...but there's no reason to hash out personal preference. @kellenindustries was right - PT's isn't going anywhere. It was Digidesign, Avid...and maybe something else one day. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 28, 2014 18:21:04 GMT -6
John, it takes a little time, and the fog begins to disperse, and Logic becomes quite logical. I'm still only midway in my skills with it, as I had a late start, but once you get a few keyboard shortcuts down, it's a breeze. Some of Logic's plugs are extraordinary. The EQ on every channel with an analyzer built in is completely transparent, the guitar plugs are as good as most popular brands, ( their Fender's are extremely close), their Drummer is really Superior Drummer with 20 free drummers, there's a convolution reverb, and if you do use pitch corrections sometimes, their Flex Pitch is better than the other brands, (like WavesTune), automation's easy, just click the automation icon, double click on the track, and you get the piano roll for editing. Once you learn to hit T, to get the toolbar, to make your pointer do what you want, editing drums is not too difficult at all. Hell, there are even 3 or 4 killer pedals available. Give it another go. If you have an Apple store near you, pay $99, and you'll get a year one to one help with an expert. Those computer tech uys charge a fortune and the Logic Pro's there know their stuff. I've got Logic...and Cubase...started in Cubase. But I have no desire to totally learn another program...unless I had to. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Feb 28, 2014 18:48:44 GMT -6
From what I've heard Apple is railroading all mac developers into 64 bit versions of everything for the next generation of macs. In the case of older software like Pro Tools, this meant a complete rewrite. If you're doing that, it makes perfect sense to also update everything from twenty years ago.
Even more plug-ins have never made it to VST3 and 64 bit VST after quite a few years. Those that did took forever. AAX by comparison is in much better shape. My experience with bridged VST plugs in Samplitude which I use for mastering has not been pretty. There has been massive instability, extra latency and CPU overhead. I'm really glad digiAvid didn't go there.
By the way, Avid bought digidesign in 1994! They only rebranded it recently as part of a major reorganization to get rid of a lot of corporate redundancy.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 28, 2014 18:58:22 GMT -6
All my Waves plugs were easily upgraded to 64 bit, UAD is 64, IK Multimedia, Kush, ReLab, Sound Toys, A.O.M., Elysia, Toontracks and more, all 64. Only Slate has been lagging, and they're coming around slowly. I hope folks don't let the 64 bit thing prevent them from using Logic.
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Post by tonycamphd on Feb 28, 2014 19:00:50 GMT -6
 Everyone knows that pro tools sounds better than those other programs. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 28, 2014 19:08:47 GMT -6
Everyone knows that pro tools sounds better than those other programs. Good one Tony. |
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Post by popmann on Feb 28, 2014 21:25:51 GMT -6
I'm gonna nominate this thread for a Tower of Babel award.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 28, 2014 23:14:44 GMT -6
By the way, Avid bought digidesign in 1994! They only rebranded it recently as part of a major reorganization to get rid of a lot of corporate redundancy. Wow...had no idea |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 28, 2014 23:14:56 GMT -6
New boss...same as the old boss
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Post by levon on Mar 1, 2014 2:09:52 GMT -6
John, I'm on Logic since Logic 5. I used Pro Tools before that, but once I found Logic, I was only too happy to switch. Most of my plugins became 64-bit over the last 2-3 years, many for free, some for an acceptable upgrade fee. I'm still on Logic 9, it runs absolutely stable and hassle-free, so I don't see the need to upgrade to X. For Logic X, I would get 32 Lives as a 32-bit bridge, apparently it works fine in Logic X. There are some plugs that will never be ported to 64-bit, but that's hardly Apple's fault. Some of those I love and I would use the bridge to keep using them in Logic X, if I ever upgrade. Been using the 32-bit bridge in Logic for years and don't understand the fuzz people make, it's absolutely no problem for me. The writing for Avid has been on the wall for some time. Sorry for those who ignored it and hailed Pro Tools 11 as the saviour - Pro Tools has always sucked and still does. I won't shed a tear. Well, I totally disagree with you...but there's no reason to hash out personal preference. @kellenindustries was right - PT's isn't going anywhere. It was Digidesign, Avid...and maybe something else one day. John, that's totally fine, and everybody has their preference. If people are happy working in PT, great and more power to them. I'm not against PT, I just prefer Logic, as do others. Guess what I'm really peeved about are the Waves and Avids of this world, I just can't stand their corporate 'ethics'. That's why I would not be sad to see those entities disappear. I'm pretty sure that PT will stay and maybe a new owner would be best for its future development. I have friends who spent tens of thousands of euros on their PT rigs in the 1980s and 90s that are virtually worthless now, and I fully understand that people are trying to protect their investment. But, after all, these are only tools, the real reason we are here should be the music. |
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Post by IngEng on Mar 1, 2014 5:39:37 GMT -6
As someone who worked for a company which got delisted/pinksheeted, it's absolutely detrimental to the company as a whole. Good employees will leave in droves, while forcing the lesser employees to take on multiple roles, further straining any R/D they might have left. You can expect layoffs to happen to make the "books look good" for potential suitors, while generally scaling back products and features to a level just above full stop. It ain't gonna be pretty because the private investors will be circling like vultures to buy up a company and sell off the assets for quick cash. How true! And the company devolves to a style of "whip the worker" in order to make the remaining folks somehow output the work of the multiple roles. Add as other morale-killers potential pay cuts, furlough, benefit cuts.... It's too bad to see this company in that state. |
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Post by jazznoise on Mar 1, 2014 9:25:52 GMT -6
My hated for PT's developed when they'd no offline render. The hybrid guys might not have cared, but I've worked on 40 minute long peices of music for an installation. Wasn't exactly sympathetic to my plight. That and things like setting up tracks, headphone mixes etc. just takes longer than it should. In Reaper we can be tracking and I can be naming and organizing audio tracks while listening. No pause in playback for creating new tracks or inserting an EQ. This doesn't make Reaper great - but it means the workflow makes sense for us. It's fast and painless.
None of the plugin formats Pro Tools have introduced have ever demonstrated superiority over VST2 or VST3. And indeed people such as Dave from GForce has stated that their SDK is a pain to use. He actually stopped developing for it altogether when they changed over from RTAS.
My other major gripe is the additional overheads that came with all their stuff from it being proprietary. And I know we can say "Oh well a lot of that's gone now" but it's too late. It was a cynical, elitist policy and it kept the cost of making music artificially high. The market is having to deflate as our product devalues and this stuff is a very delayed reaction to it. It hurt the users, it's hurting the employees and it definitely hurt the product. What a stupid tragedy for people to lose their jobs for the sake of a company wanting to look cool.
I'm not a hater in that I don't hate the software - I'll use it any day of the week. But I hate the culture it brought with it. I'd see that dead before the software any day.
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Post by drbill on Mar 1, 2014 11:45:25 GMT -6
It hurt the users, it's hurting the employees and it definitely hurt the product. I dunno man, PT has made me hundreds of thousands of dollars over the years. It hasn't hurt me one tiny bit. In fact, it has revolutionized my business to the point that I'm able to do things I only dreamed about before - both musically and business wise. And the product? It's rock solid. The employee's? Well, I'm sorry for the ones that will get laid off, but if they work at avid, they inevidably know what's going on. They have had their chance to turn things around, or bail out. They have the same chances and opportunities that we all have with our businesses. There is no free lunch for anyone these days. Most long time pro adopters (I can really only speak to the larger studio's in LA as that's where I'm from) feel pretty much the same way. It seems it's those that DON'T use PT that are the main haters. Cause they can't afford it?? I'm only speculating that of course, but that's my guess. I was not happy about how AVID rolled out HDX, but I don't have to upgrade, and I didn't. I sent my message loud and clear. Problem solved. I was still left with arguably the best DAW software/hardware system out there, and EVERY PT system I've ever bought or spec'd has paid for itself MANY times over by the end of it's life cycle including making a decent living for me while it was in operation. And they (DAW'S) ALL have a life cycle - Apple, Steinberg or whatever. I learned long ago that jumping on the "latest/greatest" bandwagon every time someone rolled out an upgrade was a losing proposition. Doesn't matter if it's apple, microsoft, avid or yamaha. I look forward to what PT has in store for us in the future. They have always moved slowly, but also, they have always revolutionized the industry with their releases when they come.... |
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Post by svart on Mar 1, 2014 12:02:28 GMT -6
I don't think it's a matter of "people who don't use it are haters", It's a matter of "people are programmed to believe PT is the only thing". Of course it's just a tool, but as a struggling recordist, i get calls all the time where the first as only question is "do you use the pro tools?" And when i answer no, i get "my friend/neighbor/relative/dude who writes for a magazine/armchair engineer on a website says that it's the best, so I'm no longer interested in recording with you".
No chance for defense, No chance for explanation, nothing. We aren't fighting the tool, we are fighting dogma and blind beliefs. That's what is really the issue here.
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Post by adogg4629 on Mar 1, 2014 12:14:07 GMT -6
From what I've heard Apple is railroading all mac developers into 64 bit versions of everything for the next generation of macs. In the case of older software like Pro Tools, this meant a complete rewrite. If you're doing that, it makes perfect sense to also update everything from twenty years ago. Even more plug-ins have never made it to VST3 and 64 bit VST after quite a few years. Those that did took forever. AAX by comparison is in much better shape. My experience with bridged VST plugs in Samplitude which I use for mastering has not been pretty. There has been massive instability, extra latency and CPU overhead. I'm really glad digiAvid didn't go there. By the way, Avid bought digidesign in 1994! They only rebranded it recently as part of a major reorganization to get rid of a lot of corporate redundancy. Great point here! Very soon, Macs and PCs won't be able to run anything other than 64 bit programs. When that happens, will anybody out there be cranky about RTAS 32 bit plugs anymore when the purchase price of a new computer would mean upgrading ALL your pro software to 64 bit versions? AD |
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Everyone knows that pro tools sounds better than those other programs.
