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Post by ragan on May 25, 2019 12:38:33 GMT -6
Unpopular opinion of the day: As a drummer, a musician and a recordist, I find that both versions in Rick's video have their merits. I don't mind either one. I also think that people who bag on things that others find useful are generally intimidated by progress. Second unpopular opinion of the day:
I could say the same thing in reverse. A lot of young guys who loudly tout that the "modern way" is the superior/only way are likely intimidated by what they don't understand from the past.
In my case I started as one of those young guys and only in the last 10-12 years have been trying to learn all I can of those "old, outmoded" techniques.
Been there, done that, the t-shirt doesn't fit anymore....
And I don't feel that I'm intimidated by progress at all - but I've seen too many cases where "progress" takes away more than it gives.
These two views aren't mutually exclusive at all in my book. I think both are valid and correct observations and both tendencies exist in all of us to varying degrees in various situations.
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Post by Guitar on May 25, 2019 12:52:36 GMT -6
Horses for courses.
(Damn, I've been waiting months or years to say that, very satisfying to finally be able to make the post.)
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Post by Johnkenn on May 25, 2019 13:14:03 GMT -6
I just saw in a video someone explaining that. Knew what it meant but didn’t know where courses came from. It’s a horse racing phrase - there are different horses for different courses. Never knew.
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Post by Ward on May 25, 2019 13:55:42 GMT -6
Why all the focus on the drummer's meter? The drummer is rhythm. Tempo works best when the bass player keeps the meter for everyone.
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Post by svart on May 25, 2019 14:41:41 GMT -6
Why all the focus on the drummer's meter? The drummer is rhythm. Tempo works best when the bass player keeps the meter for everyone. Reminds me of a joke.. What do you call a person who follows the band around wherever they play? The drummer. But seriously, I have met some musicians that think a drummer is just the metronome for the band and don't actually consider them a true member.
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Post by johneppstein on May 25, 2019 15:14:59 GMT -6
Why all the focus on the drummer's meter? The drummer is rhythm. Tempo works best when the bass player keeps the meter for everyone. Rhythm guitar.
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Post by ragan on May 25, 2019 15:31:06 GMT -6
I've spent time in every role in a band and I don't like it any other way than everyone following the drummer. He's no mere "timekeeper", he's more like the friggin' Gate Keeper, of groovin'. Ideally, of course, the pocket is a communal thing and in a good band, it takes on a life of its own and you collectively come up with a feel that's good and solid but unique to your group. But if there's any following to be done, you gotta follow the guy making the loudest transient noises. Ever try "following" the attack of the bass player on a loud stage where you're lucky to hear anything distinct below about 300 hz? Or in cans in a live room while tracking together? Yikes. And nothing sounds worse, more amateur, tackier than the situation where someone is trying to yank the drummer into a different tempo, forcing drum hits to be ahead/behind. If you all lock to the drummer and the tempo isn't quite what it should be, you still have an impactful groove. Not so when someone's trying to yank the drummer around. I kind of agree with johneppstein that rhythm guitar, in most bands, kind of sets the tone of the groove. But as far as locking up, I think ya'll gotta hitch yer wagons to the drummer. And if that isn't working, get a better drummer.
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Post by kcatthedog on May 25, 2019 15:34:02 GMT -6
I just saw in a video someone explaining that. Knew what it meant but didn’t know where courses came from. It’s a horse racing phrase - there are different horses for different courses. Never knew. Glad we cleared that up. Hey, before you waste anymore money investing in gear, I have some prime FLA real estate with your name all over it !!
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Post by kcatthedog on May 25, 2019 15:35:34 GMT -6
Why all the focus on the drummer's meter? The drummer is rhythm. Tempo works best when the bass player keeps the meter for everyone. Rhythm guitar. Ok, if his last name’s Lennon !
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Post by junior on May 25, 2019 16:12:47 GMT -6
I've spent time in every role in a band and I don't like it any other way than everyone following the drummer. He's no mere "timekeeper", he's more like the friggin' Gate Keeper, of groovin'. Ideally, of course, the pocket is a communal thing and in a good band, it takes on a life of its own and you collectively come up with a feel that's good and solid but unique to your group. But if there's any following to be done, you gotta follow the guy making the loudest transient noises. Ever try "following" the attack of the bass player on a loud stage where you're lucky to hear anything distinct below about 300 hz? Or in cans in a live room while tracking together? Yikes. And nothing sounds worse, more amateur, tackier than the situation where someone is trying to yank the drummer into a different tempo, forcing drum hits to be ahead/behind. If you all lock to the drummer and the tempo isn't quite what it should be, you still have an impactful groove. Not so when someone's trying to yank the drummer around. I kind of agree with johneppstein that rhythm guitar, in most bands, kind of sets the tone of the groove. But as far as locking up, I think ya'll gotta hitch yer wagons to the drummer. And if that isn't working, get a better drummer. A(friggin')men!
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Post by johneppstein on May 25, 2019 23:01:01 GMT -6
I've spent time in every role in a band and I don't like it any other way than everyone following the drummer. He's no mere "timekeeper", he's more like the friggin' Gate Keeper, of groovin'. Ideally, of course, the pocket is a communal thing and in a good band, it takes on a life of its own and you collectively come up with a feel that's good and solid but unique to your group. But if there's any following to be done, you gotta follow the guy making the loudest transient noises. Ever try "following" the attack of the bass player on a loud stage where you're lucky to hear anything distinct below about 300 hz? Or in cans in a live room while tracking together? Yikes. And nothing sounds worse, more amateur, tackier than the situation where someone is trying to yank the drummer into a different tempo, forcing drum hits to be ahead/behind. If you all lock to the drummer and the tempo isn't quite what it should be, you still have an impactful groove. Not so when someone's trying to yank the drummer around. I kind of agree with johneppstein that rhythm guitar, in most bands, kind of sets the tone of the groove. But as far as locking up, I think ya'll gotta hitch yer wagons to the drummer. And if that isn't working, get a better drummer. And a better rhythm guitar player. Time-wise, not fancy chord-wise....
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Post by ragan on May 25, 2019 23:06:41 GMT -6
I've spent time in every role in a band and I don't like it any other way than everyone following the drummer. He's no mere "timekeeper", he's more like the friggin' Gate Keeper, of groovin'. Ideally, of course, the pocket is a communal thing and in a good band, it takes on a life of its own and you collectively come up with a feel that's good and solid but unique to your group. But if there's any following to be done, you gotta follow the guy making the loudest transient noises. Ever try "following" the attack of the bass player on a loud stage where you're lucky to hear anything distinct below about 300 hz? Or in cans in a live room while tracking together? Yikes. And nothing sounds worse, more amateur, tackier than the situation where someone is trying to yank the drummer into a different tempo, forcing drum hits to be ahead/behind. If you all lock to the drummer and the tempo isn't quite what it should be, you still have an impactful groove. Not so when someone's trying to yank the drummer around. I kind of agree with johneppstein that rhythm guitar, in most bands, kind of sets the tone of the groove. But as far as locking up, I think ya'll gotta hitch yer wagons to the drummer. And if that isn't working, get a better drummer. And a better rhythm guitar player. Time-wise, not fancy chord-wise.... Indeed. A player's inherent groove is second to none among assets in my book.
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Post by johneppstein on May 25, 2019 23:20:26 GMT -6
And a better rhythm guitar player. Time-wise, not fancy chord-wise.... Indeed. A player's inherent groove is second to none among assets in my book. In my band we have the ability to strip it down to lead guitar, rhythm guitar and bass, essentially the same instrumentation as the early rockabilly trios, for example Johnny Horton. (That way we can get lower volume gigs at places like restaurants and coffee houses if need be.) In that context my rhythm guitar essentially becomes the drum set. Rhythm guitar as a percussion instrument.
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Post by chessparov on May 29, 2019 11:58:43 GMT -6
Yes! It's like "let's go back and tune all of James Brown's vocals"! Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. To err is human, to forgive is canine! Chris
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Post by johneppstein on May 29, 2019 12:23:57 GMT -6
I’ve edited tape to a grid before. It was done quite a bit actually. It’s not the computer. This stuff was done before computers. It’s the person that makes the decision to change what was played by the musician, either because they sucked, or because the type of music called for the performance to be rigid. Well, yes, buit when you're razor blade editing each edit is done individually and whether it's conscious or not there's still a wee bit of wobble room on each individual edit. Whereas when the computer does it there isn't, it just appliers the grid, mindlessly, automatically, and with mechanical perfection. The computer has no discretion, whereas a human does, whether he's consciously exercising it or not.
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Post by johneppstein on May 29, 2019 12:28:14 GMT -6
Usually.
However many people feel compelled to partake of the "gifts" offered by the computer. You can say that the person, not the computer, is responsible, but I don't think that's entirely true, given human nature.
Tools "want" to be used.
And all too often the tools end up dictating the workflow and even the aesthetics.
So Let me try and unpack this one, and maybe boil it down; computers ruin things automatically after programming them to, Mainly, if not only due to; Human Nature. Interesting "computers ruin things automatically after programming them to,"
No, not exactly. Computer ruin things automatically by default. You don't have to program them to.
You have to program them to NOT ruin things automatically.
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Post by johneppstein on May 29, 2019 12:33:40 GMT -6
Computers don't kill music, people kill music.
I suppose on some level you're right.
Chickens make eggs. Eggs make Chickens. Repeat until I flip the egg off the pan and ruin my breakfast.
Dinosaurs make eggs. Eggs make dinosaurs Repeat for a long time. Mutations happen. Dinosaurs change. Eventually you end up with a chicken.
YUM! Kentucky Fried Dino!
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Post by adamjbrass on May 29, 2019 12:46:46 GMT -6
Chickens make eggs. Eggs make Chickens. Repeat until I flip the egg off the pan and ruin my breakfast.
Dinosaurs make eggs. Eggs make dinosaurs Repeat for a long time. Mutations happen. Dinosaurs change. Eventually you end up with a chicken.
YUM! Kentucky Fried Dino!
I've never tried dinosaur, but this must be why everything tastes like chicken
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 29, 2019 13:54:25 GMT -6
I’ve edited tape to a grid before. It was done quite a bit actually. It’s not the computer. This stuff was done before computers. It’s the person that makes the decision to change what was played by the musician, either because they sucked, or because the type of music called for the performance to be rigid. Well, yes, buit when you're razor blade editing each edit is done individually and whether it's conscious or not there's still a wee bit of wobble rtoom on each individual edit. Whereas when the computer does it there isn't, iot just appliers the grid, mindlessly, automatically, and with mechanical perfection. The computer has no discretion, whereas a human does, whether he's consciously exercising it or not. The computer isn't usually just doing it though, and if it is, it's probably going to sound shitty. The pros edit to make it sound right. With a virtual or real blade.
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Post by johneppstein on May 29, 2019 14:26:40 GMT -6
Well, yes, buit when you're razor blade editing each edit is done individually and whether it's conscious or not there's still a wee bit of wobble rtoom on each individual edit. Whereas when the computer does it there isn't, iot just appliers the grid, mindlessly, automatically, and with mechanical perfection. The computer has no discretion, whereas a human does, whether he's consciously exercising it or not. The computer isn't usually just doing it though, and if it is, it's probably going to sound shitty. The pros edit to make it sound right. With a virtual or real blade. Well, then there are at least some people making "hit" records (whatever those are these days) who, by your definition, aren't "pros".
I wouldn't argue that, except that some of them seem to be making a lot of money.
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Post by johneppstein on May 29, 2019 14:28:09 GMT -6
Dinosaurs make eggs. Eggs make dinosaurs Repeat for a long time. Mutations happen. Dinosaurs change. Eventually you end up with a chicken.
YUM! Kentucky Fried Dino!
I've never tried dinosaur, but this must be why everything tastes like chicken
But chicken tastes like frog's legs!
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Post by chessparov on May 29, 2019 14:32:01 GMT -6
IHOP then?
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Post by Guitar on May 29, 2019 14:39:30 GMT -6
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Post by johneppstein on May 29, 2019 14:45:38 GMT -6
Ihop, Uhop, Everybody hop to the record hop!
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 29, 2019 14:54:07 GMT -6
The computer isn't usually just doing it though, and if it is, it's probably going to sound shitty. The pros edit to make it sound right. With a virtual or real blade. Well, then there are at least some people making "hit" records (whatever those are these days) who, by your definition, aren't "pros".
I wouldn't argue that, except that some of them seem to be making a lot of money.
Please give me an example of poorly edited hit tracks.
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