|
Post by johneppstein on May 16, 2019 10:51:43 GMT -6
I’ve edited tape to a grid before. It was done quite a bit actually. It’s not the computer. This stuff was done before computers. It’s the person that makes the decision to change what was played by the musician, either because they sucked, or because the type of music called for the performance to be rigid. Gratuitous quantizing was done before computers?
Interesting. I was under the impression that the closest that anybody could come to that was hours of tedious razor blade editing - which was still under the control and judgement of a human being, not an automatic process.
|
|
|
Post by matt@IAA on May 16, 2019 12:02:29 GMT -6
People did hours of tedious razor blade editing. Sylvia Massy told me she did it for some pretty amazing names, phrase by phrase, sometimes entire performances put together from loops and bits and pieces.
|
|
|
Post by notneeson on May 16, 2019 13:37:55 GMT -6
But also, businesses need to be pragmatic and there's been an HD rig at Electrical for several years now. Yes indeed. I don't think it's meant to be taken as an endorsement to be exclusively analog but rather a caution and maybe a minus column entry for digital. It is a good insight into human nature as it relates to music making if we are trying to be cognizant about it. For sure.
|
|
|
Post by Ward on May 16, 2019 13:42:55 GMT -6
I’ve edited tape to a grid before. It was done quite a bit actually. It’s not the computer. This stuff was done before computers. It’s the person that makes the decision to change what was played by the musician, either because they sucked, or because the type of music called for the performance to be rigid. Oh yes, and OH WHAT JOY that was!! Takes me back to my days with W.B.Doner in Detroit. Fun times.
|
|
|
Post by adamjbrass on May 16, 2019 14:35:55 GMT -6
So Let me try and unpack this one, and maybe boil it down; computers ruin things automatically after programming them to, Mainly, if not only due to; Human Nature. Interesting Computers don't kill music, people kill music.
I suppose on some level you're right.
Chickens make eggs. Eggs make Chickens. Repeat until I flip the egg off the pan and ruin my breakfast.
|
|
|
Post by jeremygillespie on May 16, 2019 15:05:39 GMT -6
I’ve edited tape to a grid before. It was done quite a bit actually. It’s not the computer. This stuff was done before computers. It’s the person that makes the decision to change what was played by the musician, either because they sucked, or because the type of music called for the performance to be rigid. Gratuitous quantizing was done before computers?
Interesting. I was under the impression that the closest that anybody could come to that was hours of tedious razor blade editing - which was still under the control and judgement of a human being, not an automatic process.
Yup. And nothing is automatic, and if it is - you’re doing it wrong. Nothing will get you 100% of the way there and do it correctly. I don’t care what medium I’m working in - I’m going to make it right and listenable. That’s my job. Obviously if a drummer like Bonham is in then you’ve got to leave it alone, and you’ve got to realize that you need to leave it alone. If some crap players with a boatload of money come through I’m going to give them a product that is in time and sounds good. At some point you’ve got to cut your losses and get to editing - be it in the computer or on tape. I’ve got mouths to feed and don’t have the luxury of turning away work or handing in out of time product and putting my name on it.
|
|
|
Post by the other mark williams on May 16, 2019 17:16:57 GMT -6
Gratuitous quantizing was done before computers?
Interesting. I was under the impression that the closest that anybody could come to that was hours of tedious razor blade editing - which was still under the control and judgement of a human being, not an automatic process.
Yup. And nothing is automatic, and if it is - you’re doing it wrong. Nothing will get you 100% of the way there and do it correctly. I don’t care what medium I’m working in - I’m going to make it right and listenable. That’s my job. Obviously if a drummer like Bonham is in then you’ve got to leave it alone, and you’ve got to realize that you need to leave it alone. If some crap players with a boatload of money come through I’m going to give them a product that is in time and sounds good. At some point you’ve got to cut your losses and get to editing - be it in the computer or on tape. I’ve got mouths to feed and don’t have the luxury of turning away work or handing in out of time product and putting my name on it. Absolutely. 100%.
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on May 16, 2019 17:32:52 GMT -6
Computers don't kill music, people kill music.
I suppose on some level you're right.
Chickens make eggs. Eggs make Chickens. Repeat until I flip the egg off the pan and ruin my breakfast.
Dont't do that! You'll make a mess on the floor!
|
|
|
Post by Mister Chase on May 16, 2019 17:34:09 GMT -6
Yea. Honestly, when I am working, I will do just about anything they ask me to. I may use my expertise to advise them, but really it's whatever the customer wants.
My own stuff is another story.
I think the topic is more related to the paradigm shift of yet more quantizing that is being done now in the digital age and how it relates to the tools we use and it's effect on the listener. Though any of those points can be argued. Really though, this isn't so much a discussion in my world of jazz recordings and non-mainstream styles. We really don't do that much, so it's not everybody doing it.
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on May 16, 2019 17:42:25 GMT -6
Gratuitous quantizing was done before computers?
Interesting. I was under the impression that the closest that anybody could come to that was hours of tedious razor blade editing - which was still under the control and judgement of a human being, not an automatic process.
Yup. And nothing is automatic, and if it is - you’re doing it wrong. Nothing will get you 100% of the way there and do it correctly. I don’t care what medium I’m working in - I’m going to make it right and listenable. That’s my job. Obviously if a drummer like Bonham is in then you’ve got to leave it alone, and you’ve got to realize that you need to leave it alone. If some crap players with a boatload of money come through I’m going to give them a product that is in time and sounds good. At some point you’ve got to cut your losses and get to editing - be it in the computer or on tape. I’ve got mouths to feed and don’t have the luxury of turning away work or handing in out of time product and putting my name on it. Sure. Usually.
Recently my band has been working up a couple of Waylon Jennings tunes and one of them obviously rushes the beat and speeds up at several points in the song, ending noticably faster than it started.
It didn't in any way stop the song from being a hit. However if it had fallen into the hands of many "modern" computerized engineers I would bet you a hundred bucks that they would have quantized the f*ck out of it - and the song would have been "more perfect" but would have seriously suffered for it.
You might say " Well, sure, but that's Waylon" but is it really the engineer's place to make that call?
(In case you're wondering, no, when we play it we don't copy the rushing - not consciously. We just play the damn song.)
|
|
|
Post by jeremygillespie on May 16, 2019 17:47:32 GMT -6
Yup. And nothing is automatic, and if it is - you’re doing it wrong. Nothing will get you 100% of the way there and do it correctly. I don’t care what medium I’m working in - I’m going to make it right and listenable. That’s my job. Obviously if a drummer like Bonham is in then you’ve got to leave it alone, and you’ve got to realize that you need to leave it alone. If some crap players with a boatload of money come through I’m going to give them a product that is in time and sounds good. At some point you’ve got to cut your losses and get to editing - be it in the computer or on tape. I’ve got mouths to feed and don’t have the luxury of turning away work or handing in out of time product and putting my name on it. Sure. Usually.
Recently my band has been working up a couple of Waylon Jennings tunes and one of them obviously rushes the beat and speeds up at several points in the song, ending noticably faster than it started.
It didn't in any way stop the song from being a hit. However if it had fallen into the hands of many "modern" computerized engineers I would bet you a hundred bucks that they would have quantized the f*ck out of it - and the song would have been "more perfect" but would have seriously suffered for it.
You might say " Well, sure, but that's Waylon" but is it really the engineer's place to make that call?
(In case you're wondering, no, when we play it we don't copy the rushing - not consciously. We just play the damn song.)
We happily have people like Dave Cobb leaving those types of songs to the players.
|
|
|
Post by nomatic on May 17, 2019 6:55:42 GMT -6
I would also say that there’s a difference in John Bonham being “out of time” and the local garage drummer being out of time. One is musical, one is wrong. My favorite drummer in town often rushes fills and little things, but it’s soooo good. My favorite steel player is somewhat out of time and out of tune...but it’s sooo freaking good. But then you’ve got people like Michael Rhoades on bass that can play in front, on top or behind the beat in twenty different flavors...the guy is a machine...and he sounds incredible. Sorry to pull off topic a bit but Michael Rhoads is one of my heros as a session bassist.. Guys like him and Pino Palladino inject feel on metronomic tracks as the modern drummer is more constrained by the click perceptually.
|
|
|
Post by Vincent R. on May 17, 2019 7:12:28 GMT -6
On a slightly off topic, but not really note; I was working on an orchestration for the song “Beauty and the Beast” by Celine Dion and Peabo Bryson. I downloaded a midi, sorted what instrument was what, and started messing with it with my VIs, but the tempo was bugging me. So I uploaded the original track into my session and started tempo mapping it.
This is tricky and brilliant, the song literally alternates between 76 bpm and 78 bpm every few bars throughout most of the song. There is a little tag every few bars and the tempo slows when it plays, then resumes the standard speed. During the bridge it’s like every other bar. They basically gave the song a groove by doing this and kept in on a grid to keep it together.
|
|
|
Post by Mister Chase on May 17, 2019 9:36:21 GMT -6
On a slightly off topic, but not really note; I was working on an orchestration for the song “Beauty and the Beast” by Celine Dion and Peabo Bryson. I downloaded a midi, sorted what instrument was what, and started messing with it with my VIs, but the tempo was bugging me. So I uploaded the original track into my session and started tempo mapping it. This is tricky and brilliant, the song literally alternates between 76 bpm and 78 bpm every few bars throughout most of the song. There is a little tag every few bars and the tempo slows when it plays, then resumes the standard speed. During the bridge it’s like every other bar. They basically gave the song a groove by doing this and kept in on a grid to keep it together. That is pretty wild. I had heard of bumping up a couple bpm on the chorus etc, but never alternating like that.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on May 19, 2019 9:23:48 GMT -6
My favorite use of grid and editing tools is the "Save My Ass" scenario. You know it's a pretty good track but there's some wild clams here and there. You can catch the clams and sometimes nobody knows any better. Like straightening out an extended vocal high note at one part of the song, I've had to do that for a couple of singers.
I also love tracking bass or guitar, or a keyboard, to a click, then I can overdub drums. Without the click, a drum overdub would likely be a hair raising failure. It helps for a "one man band" like me at the moment. You can write the "song" and fill in the drums easily, once I figured this out my life got much easier.
I just learned how to slip edit drums on Cubase and it's a pretty slick technique. Can't believe I am only learning this today. Saved my ass on a song I'm about to release.
Snapping everything to a grid rarely works for me, except for the rare electronic track that just needs to bang and punish in that metronomic way. Not so much for rock or more natural stuff. But for up tempo electronic music a grid can be brutal, in a good way.
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on May 19, 2019 11:11:01 GMT -6
Please excuse my rant:
My experience with bands vs. session players is that most bands have a lone great musician and you need to build crutches for the rest.
The right tempo can only really be determined by the entire ensemble and singer feeling and breathing with each other. The wrong tempo, which happens all too often, requires lots of repairs and rarely reaches better than "competent."
|
|
|
Post by schmalzy on May 19, 2019 14:20:58 GMT -6
Please excuse my rant: My experience with bands vs. session players is that most bands have a lone great musician and you need to build crutches for the rest. The right tempo can only really be determined by the entire ensemble and singer feeling and breathing with each other. The wrong tempo, which happens all too often, requires lots of repairs and rarely reaches better than "competent." As often as possible, I have the vocalist in to track basics with the rest of the band - even if it's just to do a couple passes of the track to determine the right tempos. I always feel like the tempo of each part of the song is the tempo the vocals (or other main melody if no vocals present) feel best at. Glad to know I'm not crazy about the vocalist being the most important determinant of finding the tempo (and about having to build crutches for players - it's good to know it's not just me who has to help band members a lot!).
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on May 20, 2019 11:17:01 GMT -6
Please excuse my rant: My experience with bands vs. session players is that most bands have a lone great musician and you need to build crutches for the rest. The right tempo can only really be determined by the entire ensemble and singer feeling and breathing with each other. The wrong tempo, which happens all too often, requires lots of repairs and rarely reaches better than "competent." Most bands these days, operating without the benefit of a real producer, do not appear to understand the meaning or importance of the word(s) pre-production or the importance of having a set of unbiased ears and go into the studio sadly lacking in preparation. Such preparation may not be necessary for an artist working with a crew of crack studio musicians but in most cases it's crucial for self-contained bands.
|
|
|
Post by bigbone on May 20, 2019 11:42:44 GMT -6
Please excuse my rant: My experience with bands vs. session players is that most bands have a lone great musician and you need to build crutches for the rest. The right tempo can only really be determined by the entire ensemble and singer feeling and breathing with each other. The wrong tempo, which happens all too often, requires lots of repairs and rarely reaches better than "competent." Thank's to all the Ghost studio cats tha make all these bands sound so great. !!!!
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on May 20, 2019 12:22:17 GMT -6
They were necessary prior to 16 track. Band members often got to sit in and I remember a drummer telling me that he learned an incredible amount from Hal Blane. He was really good by the time I recorded him in 1976. Steve Cropper and Tony Levin certainly helped out on that session too.
|
|
|
Post by bigbone on May 20, 2019 13:31:28 GMT -6
If some of theses cats could talk.Lot's of peoples would be surprise to know who played on what. !!!!
|
|
|
Post by svart on May 20, 2019 14:21:05 GMT -6
Unpopular opinion of the day:
As a drummer, a musician and a recordist, I find that both versions in Rick's video have their merits. I don't mind either one. I also think that people who bag on things that others find useful are generally intimidated by progress.
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on May 20, 2019 22:54:06 GMT -6
Unpopular opinion of the day: As a drummer, a musician and a recordist, I find that both versions in Rick's video have their merits. I don't mind either one. I also think that people who bag on things that others find useful are generally intimidated by progress. Second unpopular opinion of the day:
I could say the same thing in reverse. A lot of young guys who loudly tout that the "modern way" is the superior/only way are likely intimidated by what they don't understand from the past.
In my case I started as one of those young guys and only in the last 10-12 years have been trying to learn all I can of those "old, outmoded" techniques.
Been there, done that, the t-shirt doesn't fit anymore....
And I don't feel that I'm intimidated by progress at all - but I've seen too many cases where "progress" takes away more than it gives.
|
|
|
Post by bigbone on May 21, 2019 14:25:49 GMT -6
On a slightly off topic, but not really note; I was working on an orchestration for the song “Beauty and the Beast” by Celine Dion and Peabo Bryson. This is tricky and brilliant, the song literally alternates between 76 bpm and 78 bpm every few bars throughout most of the song. There is a little tag every few bars and the tempo slows when it plays, then resumes the standard speed. During the bridge it’s like every other bar. They basically gave the song a groove by doing this and kept in on a grid to keep it together. Beauty is all drums program,you can't do that with a real drummer. What you can do with a real studio cats is asking him to play a verse on top, a corus a bit behind with the same tempo. Only a skill and experience drummer will do it and the end result will be amazing. !!!
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on May 25, 2019 10:30:49 GMT -6
More people have more knowledge these days than ever before in the history of the world... it there is less wisdom. And there’s less priority places on wisdom. I don’t think I would have ever even considered quantizing someone like Bonham because I would have thought it sounded incredible already - don’t know if I would have really even realized it was out of time to be honest. I find I fight this with tuning vocals a lot. It honestly just kind of depends on the singer and the style. I would leave a “stylist” alone...like somebody like a Neil Young or a gravelly voices dude. If it’s a pop female, it needs to be in tune. Really just depends on what style.
|
|