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Post by drbill on Oct 12, 2019 15:27:44 GMT -6
I have an pretty old KM84 with a brand new capsule from Neumann (still have the vintage capsule too) and a Warm WA84. We very briefly compared them at the studio on acoustic guitar. To me the WA84 actually had a bigger bottom end. Their top end was similar. The mids on the KM84 were much more clear to me than the WA84. I think that's where the KM84 shines, the midrange clarity is amazing. I have no audio examples to share, just my opinion. That being said, we rarely break out the KM84. Just on sources where it can't be damaged (no snare, no hi hat, etc.) . We use the WA84 on hi hat and snare with reckless abandon, and have been very happy with the results. I also have a pair of Soyuz SU-013 which are amazing on all the same sources. Other small diaphragm condensers that we have and we love are AKG 451ebs and old tube AKG C61s. I keep those away from snare and hi hat too!! How does the off-axis response compare? That's one of the major things that makes the 84 such a great mic - the sound from the back and sides is the same as the on-axis sound. This is extremely difficult to achieve in a cardioid (or other directional pattern) mic.
The 84 is my go-to snare mic but there's no danger of it ever getting hit because I don't mic the snare from the top so the drummer can't hit it. Instead I mic the snare from the side approximately in the middle of the shell a couple of inches away and a couple of inches off the vent hole to avoid "chuffing". This has the added benefit of not needing a bottom mic, as you can adjust top to bottom balence by changing the height of the mic along the shell. Also, since the 84 has such great off-axis response I never need a hi-hat mic. That saves two mics and channels and cleans up a lot of phasing problems as well.
I'd never put an 84 where a stick might reach it.....
I also have a couple of 451EBs but they rarely get used anymore. I also have one of the new 451Bs, the best thing about that one is the lovely wooden box.
I do similar to John. At this stage of the game - I rarely (hate to say never) use an under the snare mic. I'll instead use either a KM84 or MD441 on the shell of the snare. Gets all the crack, a ton of brightness without the fizziness of an under the drum snare mic, and I'll still use a mic on the top of the snare for the whompf. Done. Sounds killer. My main snare "tone" still comes from the OH mics though. Whompf from the top, and crack / brightness from that side KM.
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Post by thirdeye on Oct 12, 2019 20:13:11 GMT -6
I have an pretty old KM84 with a brand new capsule from Neumann (still have the vintage capsule too) and a Warm WA84. We very briefly compared them at the studio on acoustic guitar. To me the WA84 actually had a bigger bottom end. Their top end was similar. The mids on the KM84 were much more clear to me than the WA84. I think that's where the KM84 shines, the midrange clarity is amazing. I have no audio examples to share, just my opinion. That being said, we rarely break out the KM84. Just on sources where it can't be damaged (no snare, no hi hat, etc.) . We use the WA84 on hi hat and snare with reckless abandon, and have been very happy with the results. I also have a pair of Soyuz SU-013 which are amazing on all the same sources. Other small diaphragm condensers that we have and we love are AKG 451ebs and old tube AKG C61s. I keep those away from snare and hi hat too!! How does the off-axis response compare? That's one of the major things that makes the 84 such a great mic - the sound from the back and sides is the same as the on-axis sound. This is extremely difficult to achieve in a cardioid (or other directional pattern) mic.
The 84 is my go-to snare mic but there's no danger of it ever getting hit because I don't mic the snare from the top so the drummer can't hit it. Instead I mic the snare from the side approximately in the middle of the shell a couple of inches away and a couple of inches off the vent hole to avoid "chuffing". This has the added benefit of not needing a bottom mic, as you can adjust top to bottom balence by changing the height of the mic along the shell. Also, since the 84 has such great off-axis response I never need a hi-hat mic. That saves two mics and channels and cleans up a lot of phasing problems as well.
I'd never put an 84 where a stick might reach it.....
I also have a couple of 451EBs but they rarely get used anymore. I also have one of the new 451Bs, the best thing about that one is the lovely wooden box.
I haven't compared the off axis response of the KM84 to the WA84 yet. I've pretty much always been a top and bottom snare guy, usually 57 top, 441 bottom. I send the two mic preamps to a console bus, blend the channels to taste, and record/commit it to one track in Pro Tools. Same technique with the kick drum. I've tried the snare shell micing a couple times before and when I did, it didn't work for me. Too much hi hat bleed, at least with the drummers I've tried it on. I definitely should try it again though. It's been a long time. Thank you for the detailed explanation! I'll certainly try the drbill technique too, top and shell.
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Post by drbill on Oct 12, 2019 20:43:11 GMT -6
How does the off-axis response compare? That's one of the major things that makes the 84 such a great mic - the sound from the back and sides is the same as the on-axis sound. This is extremely difficult to achieve in a cardioid (or other directional pattern) mic.
The 84 is my go-to snare mic but there's no danger of it ever getting hit because I don't mic the snare from the top so the drummer can't hit it. Instead I mic the snare from the side approximately in the middle of the shell a couple of inches away and a couple of inches off the vent hole to avoid "chuffing". This has the added benefit of not needing a bottom mic, as you can adjust top to bottom balence by changing the height of the mic along the shell. Also, since the 84 has such great off-axis response I never need a hi-hat mic. That saves two mics and channels and cleans up a lot of phasing problems as well.
I'd never put an 84 where a stick might reach it.....
I also have a couple of 451EBs but they rarely get used anymore. I also have one of the new 451Bs, the best thing about that one is the lovely wooden box.
I haven't compared the off axis response of the KM84 to the WA84 yet. I've pretty much always been a top and bottom snare guy, usually 57 top, 441 bottom. I send the two mic preamps to a console bus, blend the channels to taste, and record/commit it to one track in Pro Tools. Same technique with the kick drum. I've tried the snare shell micing a couple times before and when I did, it didn't work for me. Too much hi hat bleed, at least with the drummers I've tried it on. I definitely should try it again though. It's been a long time. Thank you for the detailed explanation! I'll certainly try the drbill technique too, top and shell. I hear ya. I've got to admit - the drummers I usually record are excellent at balancing their kits themselves, and unless really call for for the style, none of em are what I would consider hi hat bashers. That helps a LOT. That said, a little adjustment of where you mic the shell helps a lot as well. Do some experimenting with that next time. <thumbsup>
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 12, 2019 20:55:29 GMT -6
How does the off-axis response compare? That's one of the major things that makes the 84 such a great mic - the sound from the back and sides is the same as the on-axis sound. This is extremely difficult to achieve in a cardioid (or other directional pattern) mic.
The 84 is my go-to snare mic but there's no danger of it ever getting hit because I don't mic the snare from the top so the drummer can't hit it. Instead I mic the snare from the side approximately in the middle of the shell a couple of inches away and a couple of inches off the vent hole to avoid "chuffing". This has the added benefit of not needing a bottom mic, as you can adjust top to bottom balence by changing the height of the mic along the shell. Also, since the 84 has such great off-axis response I never need a hi-hat mic. That saves two mics and channels and cleans up a lot of phasing problems as well.
I'd never put an 84 where a stick might reach it.....
I also have a couple of 451EBs but they rarely get used anymore. I also have one of the new 451Bs, the best thing about that one is the lovely wooden box.
I haven't compared the off axis response of the KM84 to the WA84 yet. I've pretty much always been a top and bottom snare guy, usually 57 top, 441 bottom. I send the two mic preamps to a console bus, blend the channels to taste, and record/commit it to one track in Pro Tools. Same technique with the kick drum. I've tried the snare shell micing a couple times before and when I did, it didn't work for me. Too much hi hat bleed, at least with the drummers I've tried it on. I definitely should try it again though. It's been a long time. Thank you for the detailed explanation! I'll certainly try the drbill technique too, top and shell. Micing snare top and bottom causes phase problems. Always. You can't avoid it. Micing the snare from the side only works if you use a GOOD mic. A 57 is not a good mic. A 441 is, but it's far too bulky. However it's also a hypercardiod which might make it unsuitable for micing from the side. If you have "too much hi-hat bleed" that indicates that you're using a mic with poor off-axis response, or bleed would not be a problem.
A KM84, with its superlative off axis response, is the ideal mic for side micing the snare. The AKG 451 EB is not as good but will do in a pinch (the new 451B will not.)
The more mics you use on a drum kit, the worse the sound and the greater the problems you get. Each mic you add to the kit increases the potential phase problems exponentially, with the exponent being the number of existing mics added to the new one (if that makes any sense to you.)
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Post by thirdeye on Oct 13, 2019 17:09:18 GMT -6
I haven't compared the off axis response of the KM84 to the WA84 yet. I've pretty much always been a top and bottom snare guy, usually 57 top, 441 bottom. I send the two mic preamps to a console bus, blend the channels to taste, and record/commit it to one track in Pro Tools. Same technique with the kick drum. I've tried the snare shell micing a couple times before and when I did, it didn't work for me. Too much hi hat bleed, at least with the drummers I've tried it on. I definitely should try it again though. It's been a long time. Thank you for the detailed explanation! I'll certainly try the drbill technique too, top and shell. Micing snare top and bottom causes phase problems. Always. You can't avoid it. Micing the snare from the side only works if you use a GOOD mic. A 57 is not a good mic. A 441 is, but it's far too bulky. However it's also a hypercardiod which might make it unsuitable for micing from the side. If you have "too much hi-hat bleed" that indicates that you're using a mic with poor off-axis response, or bleed would not be a problem.
A KM84, with its superlative off axis response, is the ideal mic for side micing the snare. The AKG 451 EB is not as good but will do in a pinch (the new 451B will not.)
The more mics you use on a drum kit, the worse the sound and the greater the problems you get. Each mic you add to the kit increases the potential phase problems exponentially, with the exponent being the number of existing mics added to the new one (if that makes any sense to you.)
I can appreciate what you're saying. Thanks for your time.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2019 19:02:29 GMT -6
Like gefells better
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Post by Ward on Oct 14, 2019 19:49:12 GMT -6
Which ones in particular? 300s?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2019 17:08:03 GMT -6
Which ones in particular? 300s? Actually I misread the orig post. Km84s are extemely good. I don't know why I was thinking the newer km184 which I dislike prefer m300 over them. Km84 is as good as it gets. As far as gefell I really like m295
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Post by drbill on Oct 19, 2019 19:45:20 GMT -6
I prefer my 84's / 86's over my Gefell SDC;s, but they are quite good. 2nd place.... They are brighter, but in the same vein.... 692/M70's.
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 19, 2019 21:26:05 GMT -6
CUT IT OUT!
KM84s are HORRIBLE microphones. You should all dump every one you have. I will take them off your hands and dispose of them properly. I will even give you actual money - say a few hundred bucks each? Then you can purchase nice modern, up to date microphones, like KM184s or the new, improved AKG C451B.
Seriously, who would want old, outmoded microphones like KM84s? Besides idiots like myself....
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