miklo
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Post by miklo on Apr 27, 2019 20:41:56 GMT -6
What's the minimum size a room can be to get top quality radio standard vocals?
Let's assume the gear, mixing, and mastering are all top notch.
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Post by drbill on Apr 27, 2019 20:44:45 GMT -6
4' X 4' X 8' - preferably 10' (height). Plenty of vocals have been cut in small vocal booths that size. You'll want it dead though. 6' x 6' x 8 (10) would be better though
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miklo
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Post by miklo on Apr 27, 2019 20:52:37 GMT -6
DrBill can you reference me any top billboard charting songs where vocals were cut in that small of room.
The question is being posed by a podcast studio assistant who wants reference tracks and I can't think of any big time hits that were documented in small rooms. I googled top musicians "in the studio" and it seems most were tracking in very large rooms or big control rooms.
Your expertise is appreciated.
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Post by the other mark williams on Apr 27, 2019 21:05:08 GMT -6
DrBill can you reference me any top billboard charting songs where vocals were cut in that small of room. The question is being posed by a podcast studio assistant who wants reference tracks and I can't think of any big time hits that were documented in small rooms. I googled top musicians "in the studio" and it seems most were tracking in very large rooms or big control rooms. Your expertise is appreciated. I can’t quote actual tracks, but I know the vocal booth at the Sound Kitchen in Nashville is exactly what Bill describes: 4’ x 4’ x 10’, and dead as a doornail. Tons of big time vocals recorded in that booth. EDIT: OK, probably more like 6' x 6' x 10'
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miklo
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Post by miklo on Apr 27, 2019 21:14:26 GMT -6
DrBill can you reference me any top billboard charting songs where vocals were cut in that small of room. The question is being posed by a podcast studio assistant who wants reference tracks and I can't think of any big time hits that were documented in small rooms. I googled top musicians "in the studio" and it seems most were tracking in very large rooms or big control rooms. Your expertise is appreciated. I can’t quote actual tracks, but I know the vocal booth at the Sound Kitchen in Nashville is exactly what Bill describes: 4’ x 4’ x 10’, and dead as a doornail. Tons of big time vocals recorded in that booth. Guys I just looked up Sound Kitchen in Nashville and so far all the tracking rooms I see are pretty large. The picture gallery shows vocals being recorded in large rooms and the description boasts about 18 foot ceilings.
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Post by the other mark williams on Apr 27, 2019 21:20:04 GMT -6
I can’t quote actual tracks, but I know the vocal booth at the Sound Kitchen in Nashville is exactly what Bill describes: 4’ x 4’ x 10’, and dead as a doornail. Tons of big time vocals recorded in that booth. Guys I just looked up Sound Kitchen in Nashville and so far all the tracking rooms I see are pretty large. The picture gallery shows vocals being recorded in large rooms and the description boasts about 18 foot ceilings. yeah, you’re looking at the room they call the “Big Boy.” That’s the room that makes people book the studio. But that’s not where a lot of vocals are cut. Well, I’m sure some vocals are cut in the big room, but a lot of vocals are cut in the vocal booth. It’s unlikely they would put pics of this online, b/c people would say, “oh, I can build one of those!” The Big Boy is what books the space, because it’s become rare to have rooms of that size. But I can assure you of what the vocal booth looks like, because I have sung in it.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 27, 2019 21:27:02 GMT -6
4' X 4' X 8' - preferably 10' (height). Plenty of vocals have been cut in small vocal booths that size. You'll want it dead though. 6' x 6' x 8 (10) would be better though If you can keep the room from being square and avoid dimensions being multiples of each other all the better, but honestly I’ll admit at dimensions this small all your standing waves are going to be pretty close together that’s it won’t make a huge difference.
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miklo
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Post by miklo on Apr 27, 2019 21:36:24 GMT -6
I see the Big Boy room-that is enormous! Pretty sweet looking no doubt. But most of the studio also features other large vocal tracking rooms. I imagine these rooms and Big Boy are where serious big time vocals are being cut. Attachments:
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miklo
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Post by miklo on Apr 27, 2019 21:37:49 GMT -6
Thats 3 rooms in Sound Kitchen much bigger than the mentioned tiny booth.
If anyone can reference a hit with stellar vocals that was documented to have been done in a bedroom size vocal room, by all means share!
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Post by the other mark williams on Apr 27, 2019 21:39:09 GMT -6
4' X 4' X 8' - preferably 10' (height). Plenty of vocals have been cut in small vocal booths that size. You'll want it dead though. 6' x 6' x 8 (10) would be better though If you can keep the room from being square and avoid dimensions being multiples of each other all the better, but honestly I’ll admit at dimensions this small all your standing waves are going to be pretty close together that’s it won’t make a huge difference. yeah, absolutely, which is why 10’ is definitely better than 8’ for the ceiling. The reason this small of a space can work fine for vocals (if you like a dead vocal sound...) is b/c you can make the walls 12” thick of fiberglass, and then you’re not going to have much build up of problematic frequencies for vocals. I’ll say that personally, I prefer a larger room than this, but lots of big records have had the lead vox cut in a space like I’ve described. Certainly podcasting/NPR-style vocals work fine in a small, extremely dead space.
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Post by drbill on Apr 27, 2019 21:54:19 GMT -6
DrBill can you reference me any top billboard charting songs where vocals were cut in that small of room. The question is being posed by a podcast studio assistant who wants reference tracks and I can't think of any big time hits that were documented in small rooms. I googled top musicians "in the studio" and it seems most were tracking in very large rooms or big control rooms. Your expertise is appreciated. No. I don't keep track of such trivia. But I've worked in studios for long enough to know truth. The reality is, if you're tracking vocals - at least lead vocals - in a large room, you're going to take as much of the room OUT of the equation as possible. Gobos, iso booth, dampening, etc.. Big rooms are generally not great for vocal recording. Groups of course being the exception. A nice large room is preferred IMO. But for leads, smaller, more dampened, and neutral without reflections that big rooms bring. If you book Capitol and tell them you're doing lead vocals, they will set you up in one of the iso rooms, or if you're out in the big room, they will bring in gobos, packing blankets and take other measures to dampen the room sound. Sorry to blow up internet legend..... My preferred size would be an asymetrical room in the rough size of 10X12 X 14H or so. Well dampened and "dead"-ishg. Smaller would be fine too.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 27, 2019 21:56:29 GMT -6
If you can keep the room from being square and avoid dimensions being multiples of each other all the better, but honestly I’ll admit at dimensions this small all your standing waves are going to be pretty close together that’s it won’t make a huge difference. yeah, absolutely, which is why 10’ is definitely better than 8’ for the ceiling. The reason this small of a space can work fine for vocals (if you like a dead vocal sound...) is b/c you can make the walls 12” thick of fiberglass, and then you’re not going to have much build up of problematic frequencies for vocals. I’ll say that personally, I prefer a larger room than this, but lots of big records have had the lead vox cut in a space like I’ve described. Certainly podcasting/NPR-style vocals work fine in a small, extremely dead space. Yeah I have never been a fan of the vocal closet sound, over time it can feel like the room is getting even smaller, plus most lack good ventilation.
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miklo
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Post by miklo on Apr 27, 2019 21:59:55 GMT -6
DrBill can you reference me any top billboard charting songs where vocals were cut in that small of room. The question is being posed by a podcast studio assistant who wants reference tracks and I can't think of any big time hits that were documented in small rooms. I googled top musicians "in the studio" and it seems most were tracking in very large rooms or big control rooms. Your expertise is appreciated. No. I don't keep track of such trivia. But I've worked in studios for long enough to know truth. The reality is, if you're tracking vocals - at least lead vocals - in a large room, you're going to take as much of the room OUT of the equation as possible. Gobos, iso booth, dampening, etc.. Big rooms are generally not great for vocal recording. Groups of course being the exception. A nice large room is preferred IMO. But for leads, smaller, more dampened, and neutral without reflections that big rooms bring. If you book Capitol and tell them you're doing lead vocals, they will set you up in one of the iso rooms, or if you're out in the big room, they will bring in gobos, packing blankets and take other measures to dampen the room sound. Sorry to blow up internet legend..... My preferred size would be an asymetrical room in the rough size of 10X12 X 14H or so. Well dampened and "dead"-ishg. Smaller would be fine too. This is great information. Is 4 inch thick panels deep enough for a room with dimensions close to 10x12? Or is much thicker paneling required for a room that small?
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Post by donr on Apr 27, 2019 22:19:00 GMT -6
All the lead vocals I've ever done in commercial studio live rooms had the mic set up in front of tall gobos that damped down the room sound and reduced the sonic size of the space. Typically there was a rug on the floor where the mic was also. Unlike tracking a band, you didn't want the room sound to register on the recording, even though it still had some impact on the sound, and all ambiences were added later in the mix.
Since most final vocals were overdubs, they were generally recorded in the main studio space, but they were always damped by gobo walls that usually closed off at least 120º of what the cardiod mic heard behind the vocalist. And the vocal space created was typically fairly close to the control room window and wall, making for a much smaller acoustical room.
You wouldn't record a lead vocal in a live drum room, for example. The less flattering the room sound, the more you'd want to record it as dry and dead as practical. I've also recorded final vocals in vocal booths. Unless a small space is glaringly unflattering, and ruins your vocal, you can still make it sound epic in the mix. Especially with the room IR's available today.
But think about it, most pop vocals you hear are really up front and intimate with all the compression and limiting, and big room ambience baked in generally would not be what you'd want to hear at that point.
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Post by the other mark williams on Apr 27, 2019 22:23:53 GMT -6
yeah, absolutely, which is why 10’ is definitely better than 8’ for the ceiling. The reason this small of a space can work fine for vocals (if you like a dead vocal sound...) is b/c you can make the walls 12” thick of fiberglass, and then you’re not going to have much build up of problematic frequencies for vocals. I’ll say that personally, I prefer a larger room than this, but lots of big records have had the lead vox cut in a space like I’ve described. Certainly podcasting/NPR-style vocals work fine in a small, extremely dead space. Yeah I have never been a fan of the vocal closet sound, over time it can feel like the room is getting even smaller, plus most lack good ventilation. It's interesting, ericn , because I've sometimes wondered if the proliferation of 251-style mics has anything to do with the proliferation of smaller, deader spaces. There may be no correlation at all, but I find it interesting. It seems like it's a little harder to get away with mid-forward sounds in a small-small booth to me. miklo : Regardless, I do prefer a medium-sized, asymmetrical room for lead vocals when possible. But drbill is absolutely spot-on that if lead vocals are cut in a large room, they're usually surrounded by gobos or some other movable deadening agent to dry up the space a bit. But I'm a little confused, miklo . What is the story with your "podcast studio assistant"? Why does he or she need proof about what kind of spaces lead vocals have been cut in? Are you guys building a new space or something? The fact is that large studio complexes usually have multiple studios in the same facility. Studio A will have a big room, and then several booths or small rooms off of that big room. Studio B will likewise have a similar setup. If you were calling a big studio complex saying, "hey, i need to cut some lead vocals," they're not going to book you in Studio A's big room (unless you specifically ask for it). They're going to put you in a smaller room.
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miklo
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Post by miklo on Apr 27, 2019 23:33:52 GMT -6
Mark,
The podcast guy also works at my local UPS. I went into his store to ship out a mic and he saw it and we got to gear talking. When I told him I was selling the mic to free up funds for room treatment, he asked me how big my room was. Told him I had a couple of rooms to choose from and he basically said it was much better to go to a local studio instead with a big room. Told me I'd be hard pressed to hear about any real quality vocals being tracked in bedroom size rooms.
Kind of got me thinking as vocals are my #1 priority. If a room is close to 10x10, give or take a little bigger or a little smaller-is 4 inch panels enough or do they need to be thicker for this size?
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 28, 2019 0:12:43 GMT -6
What's the minimum size a room can be to get top quality radio standard vocals? Let's assume the gear, mixing, and mastering are all top notch. Give us a couple examples of what you consider top quality radio vocals.
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Post by the other mark williams on Apr 28, 2019 0:16:12 GMT -6
Mark, The podcast guy also works at my local UPS. I went into his store to ship out a mic and he saw it and we got to gear talking. When I told him I was selling the mic to free up funds for room treatment, he asked me how big my room was. Told him I had a couple of rooms to choose from and he basically said it was much better to go to a local studio instead with a big room. Told me I'd be hard pressed to hear about any real quality vocals being tracked in bedroom size rooms. Kind of got me thinking as vocals are my #1 priority. If a room is close to 10x10, give or take a little bigger or a little smaller-is 4 inch panels enough or do they need to be thicker for this size? Gotcha, now I'm onboard. :-) If you're doing primarily vocals in that space, 4" panels (with an air gap) is probably sufficient--as long as you use enough of them. But if you're also using that space as your control room, you might want to think about deeper panels or other options. As you're setting aside funds for room treatment, IMO it's worth giving GIK a call. They'll give a free consult and recommend products based upon your specific room and recording goals. You can obviously then decide to buy stuff from them or not, but the consult will be helpful regardless.
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Post by ragan on Apr 28, 2019 0:33:24 GMT -6
Also, I'd be wary of people who like to make Big General Proclamations. About gear, but also about anything. There aren't two categories, 1) Top Quality Radio Standard Vocals and 2) other.
Songs that have charted high on the radio are absolutely all over the map sonically and even among the ones that most of us would agree sound good, the conditions under which the vocal was tracked vary from a 58 in a hotel room to a 251 set up by 9 assistant engineers in a gazillion dollar facility.
The high level engineers I've come across don't tend to think in rigid categories about What You Can And Can't Do. They take the situation they're hired into and get to work with the gear they've got in the space they've got. In my view, this is how they got so damn good in the first place.
My advice is to disregard the production dogma of the clerk at the UPS store and get some decent treatment up in strategic spots and get trackin'.
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Post by drbill on Apr 28, 2019 0:42:20 GMT -6
^^^ Exactly
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Post by chessparov on Apr 28, 2019 1:34:46 GMT -6
I heard that "I'm Turning Japanese" was recorded in a 2" X 2" X 6" vocal booth. But that's now considered being "Big" in Japan! The brief acapella vocal I just posted ("...Good El Cheapo MDC"), was done at work-approx 20' X20' ala Domestic Garage/Rug Floor. Sounded fine for YouTube Channel /MP3/Podcast level IMHO. That microphone sounds a LOT more expensive, then it is BTW. Chris
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 28, 2019 7:23:51 GMT -6
Yeah I have never been a fan of the vocal closet sound, over time it can feel like the room is getting even smaller, plus most lack good ventilation. It's interesting, ericn , because I've sometimes wondered if the proliferation of 251-style mics has anything to do with the proliferation of smaller, deader spaces. There may be no correlation at all, but I find it interesting. It seems like it's a little harder to get away with mid-forward sounds in a small-small booth to me. miklo : Regardless, I do prefer a medium-sized, asymmetrical room for lead vocals when possible. But drbill is absolutely spot-on that if lead vocals are cut in a large room, they're usually surrounded by gobos or some other movable deadening agent to dry up the space a bit. But I'm a little confused, miklo . What is the story with your "podcast studio assistant"? Why does he or she need proof about what kind of spaces lead vocals have been cut in? Are you guys building a new space or something? The fact is that large studio complexes usually have multiple studios in the same facility. Studio A will have a big room, and then several booths or small rooms off of that big room. Studio B will likewise have a similar setup. If you were calling a big studio complex saying, "hey, i need to cut some lead vocals," they're not going to book you in Studio A's big room (unless you specifically ask for it). They're going to put you in a smaller room. Mark never thought of that and the 251, I always thought it was the pretty pictures in Mix magazine and rarity. As for top engineers and rooms, the best are going to make the best of what they are given. Do remember often what we as AE’s would feel are sub par sonics are often the result of a performance that they just can’t equal with everything dialed in !
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 28, 2019 8:04:27 GMT -6
Rooms are weird. Some just sound good, some just don’t. Personally I like a little natural room sound , but just enough to make me feel good singing in it. I get a little claustrophobic in very small booths.
in my apartment there are spots that sound better than others, so be sure to locate any sweet spots you can find.
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Post by bluegrassdan on Apr 28, 2019 8:09:07 GMT -6
I don’t know the answer to the specific question, but I agree that eliminating the room from the vocal sound is typically preferred. Too much room will get weird as soon as you start compressing and tuning.
You must also be aware of comb filtering in booths that are too small without broadband absorption.
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 28, 2019 8:34:49 GMT -6
Yeah. I would disregard all that Jazz. If it sounds good, it IS good. It’s all about the song, the song, the song...and a little bit about the singer.
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