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Post by swurveman on Mar 8, 2019 8:25:05 GMT -6
Interesting idea. It is expensive at $2,199.00
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Post by javamad on Mar 8, 2019 8:31:47 GMT -6
I have been looking at this but I was dissappinted to not see any specifications at all about crosstalk/thd ect anywhere on the site.
A standard patchbay has physical separation between channels but all signals here go through some central chips with mini relays or whatever ... I would expect them to provide some specs for that reason.
Apart from that it looks like a great system and if the specs turn out to be good then I would definitely look at it.
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Post by adamjbrass on Mar 8, 2019 10:30:56 GMT -6
I am excited to try this and learn it. It seems really innovative. The proof is in the pudding, so I am ready to hear how it sounds and see how it works
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Post by sirthought on Mar 8, 2019 14:08:41 GMT -6
It looks impressive. Am I understanding correctly, that you can not add any plugin compressors or EQs to the paths? It's only working with outboard gear.
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Post by adamjbrass on Mar 8, 2019 15:58:16 GMT -6
Its digital control of analog routing, so there is no facility to route to digital and back to analog -- unless you use AD/DA converters for that.
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Post by Ward on Mar 12, 2019 7:32:13 GMT -6
There was talk of a complete solution, at one point about 10 years ago, that combined AD and took in all your components and allowed you to felxibly creat a multitude of chains and then output a D signal into your interfaces' D inputs.
That propsect truly intrigues me.
Then I can sell off $8400 of Switchcraft 9625s
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Post by matt@IAA on Mar 12, 2019 7:41:21 GMT -6
Ward, couldn't a MOTU do this? With $8400 you could get 4x24AI/AO for 96 I/O or 5 16As for 80 I/O. Daisy chain with an AVB router and do all your patching digitally through the routing panel.
The only point that kind of sucks about this setup is that you can't do it from inside the DAW.
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Post by Ward on Mar 12, 2019 8:12:46 GMT -6
Ward, couldn't a MOTU do this? With $8400 you could get 4x24AI/AO for 96 I/O or 5 16As for 80 I/O. Daisy chain with an AVB router and do all your patching digitally through the routing panel. The only point that kind of sucks about this setup is that you can't do it from inside the DAW.And there is the obstacle!  |
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Post by svart on Mar 12, 2019 8:20:38 GMT -6
There was talk of a complete solution, at one point about 10 years ago, that combined AD and took in all your components and allowed you to felxibly creat a multitude of chains and then output a D signal into your interfaces' D inputs. That propsect truly intrigues me. Then I can sell off $8400 of Switchcraft 9625s Yeah, it was called the SSL Alphalink. It came with a virtual mixer that you could assign any input to any output, buss, use plugs, etc. |
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Post by guitfiddler on Mar 12, 2019 10:43:34 GMT -6
I thought Universal Audio would have their own proprietary DAW using console as the way I/O. Kind of like Harrison Mixbuss(Console like, Presonus has Capture, works like a charm),but I’ve yet to see total integration. Still going back to my analog board once I get my ducks in a row.
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Post by Ward on Mar 13, 2019 6:19:39 GMT -6
I would need 84 of them, @superwack
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Mar 13, 2019 7:13:15 GMT -6
Over the years there have been a dozen or so small scale digitally controlled patchbays and they have all failed. The thing is a switching matrix isn’t cheap to build and it doesn’t get cheaper as you up scale it. They have all been cool little pieces but almost every buyer has quickly out grown the piece. The market is really those with much bigger systems but most would never spend as much on a switching matrix as a vintage Neve.
The closest and most affordable option is Something like DRBillls system where you have dedicated I/o for all the outboard and use the DAW’s internal patching matrix as your patchbay. Plus you are know your patching software isn’t going to have any issues as far as compatibility with your DAW or updates.
The other thing is a separate patchbay is pretty clumsy to intergrate into a plugin and for those who use another manufacturers interface/ mixer software having 3 patching windows just seams really stupid and clumsy.
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Post by Ward on Mar 13, 2019 8:08:37 GMT -6
Over the years there have been a dozen or so small scale digitally controlled patchbays and they have all failed. The thing is a switching matrix isn’t cheap to build and it doesn’t get cheaper as you up scale it. They have all been cool little pieces but almost every buyer has quickly out grown the piece. The market is really those with much bigger systems but most would never spend as much on a switching matrix as a vintage Neve. The closest and most affordable option is Something like DRBillls system where you have dedicated I/o for all the outboard and use the DAW’s internal patching matrix as your patchbay. Plus you are know your patching software isn’t going to have any issues as far as compatibility with your DAW or updates. The other thing is a separate patchbay is pretty clumsy to intergrate into a plugin and for those who use another manufacturers interface/ mixer software having 3 patching windows just seams really stupid and clumsy. Is that anything like the intensely complicated system CLA was showing me and a couple other guys at NAMM? |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 13, 2019 9:21:04 GMT -6
Over the years there have been a dozen or so small scale digitally controlled patchbays and they have all failed. The thing is a switching matrix isn’t cheap to build and it doesn’t get cheaper as you up scale it. They have all been cool little pieces but almost every buyer has quickly out grown the piece. The market is really those with much bigger systems but most would never spend as much on a switching matrix as a vintage Neve. The closest and most affordable option is Something like DRBillls system where you have dedicated I/o for all the outboard and use the DAW’s internal patching matrix as your patchbay. Plus you are know your patching software isn’t going to have any issues as far as compatibility with your DAW or updates. The other thing is a separate patchbay is pretty clumsy to intergrate into a plugin and for those who use another manufacturers interface/ mixer software having 3 patching windows just seams really stupid and clumsy. Is that anything like the intensely complicated system CLA was showing me and a couple other guys at NAMM? Probably! Suddenly all those Switchcrafts seam inexpensive and simple. Makes you miss the days of good interns. I wish somebody would make a great program for patchbay recall! |
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Post by Quint on Mar 13, 2019 9:35:13 GMT -6
The Achilles heel of the Flock is that you have to eat up a ton of I/O to connect two or more of these together.
There is a limit to how many channels of this you can practically or even theoretically have if your desire is to create a system where any input can be connected to any output, just as is possible with traditional patchbays.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 13, 2019 9:51:29 GMT -6
The Achilles heel of the Flock is that you have to eat up a ton of I/O to connect two or more of these together. There is a limit to how many channels of this you can practically or even theoretically have if your desire is to create a system where any input can be connected to any output, just as is possible with traditional patchbays. That’s part of why they analog matrices get impractical very quickly. |
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Post by Quint on Mar 13, 2019 9:56:14 GMT -6
The Achilles heel of the Flock is that you have to eat up a ton of I/O to connect two or more of these together. There is a limit to how many channels of this you can practically or even theoretically have if your desire is to create a system where any input can be connected to any output, just as is possible with traditional patchbays. That’s part of why they analog matrices get impractical very quickly. You mean digitally controlled analog matrices? |
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Post by adamjbrass on Mar 13, 2019 10:00:24 GMT -6
Let's hope they make a much larger one! And I wouldn't mind an 8x8 XLR unit either!
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Post by drbill on Mar 13, 2019 10:21:33 GMT -6
The closest and most affordable option is Something like DRBillls system where you have dedicated I/o for all the outboard and use the DAW’s internal patching matrix as your patchbay. "Affordable"? Oh wait....you said MOST affordable. In the eyes of the beholder I guess. The heat it puts off almost demands a machine room. 6 16 ch AD/DA's and a computer and a wad of hard drives put out a lot of heat. I have mine in a dedicated "large closet / small room" and it takes it's own mini-split AC system. And it's still working hard when there's snow on the ground. But yeah, once you get past the fear of DA/AD (I believe the vast amount of degradation happens in the first digitization, and subsequent round trips vary the sound very little if at all) it all becomes quite easy and elegant. Almost like mixing ITB. but of course you need quality (but not mega expensive) DA/AD - and of course the gear that it's designed to hook up and integrate. Most of the time I do virtually no patching in the bay (although it's full featured and I could) - instead stringing chains together via inserts in PTHDX. If I was starting from scratch, I'd probably go without a bay and let PT handle the matrix completely digitally. Or perhaps do a limited TT bay with key critical pieces that I track with. But as is - it's Simple. Sweet. and Fast. With one exception. Wire. The Achilles Heel of any analog based system. Be it Flock or AD/DA's or a console. Try going 96 i/o 40 feet from your gear / bays. Someone(s) awhile back were scoffing that I had close to $50k in wire / cables in the studio. It's no joke. I use Mogami exclusively and the round trip from the machine room to the bay is 80 ft. (That makes the round trip to the bay for ONE 16 ch rack about $1400 or so.) Round trips from the bay to various racks range from 20 to 80+ feet. That's a FREAKING lot of cable and connectors. (Edac / XLR;s here for everything) Of course, anyone whose ever built a traditional studio is well aware of the costs and issues that flexibility and patch bays bring into the fray.... The flock thing looks interesting, but it's way too limited for my use at this point. Doing it right for me demanded the above. And FOR ME, it was worth every penny to elegantly and simply integrate dozens of analog pieces into my DAW with zero thought (after the buildout). |
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Post by guitfiddler on Mar 13, 2019 10:48:48 GMT -6
When I think of a handy audio patching tool of analog hardware. This comes to mind. dangerousmusic.com/product/liaison/This box has a lot of functionality. You can also use the blend pot to dial in that compression exactly where you want it! |
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Post by swurveman on Mar 13, 2019 11:01:32 GMT -6
Only two outputs. Seems like a great mastering tool. |
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Post by svart on Mar 13, 2019 11:20:23 GMT -6
The closest and most affordable option is Something like DRBillls system where you have dedicated I/o for all the outboard and use the DAW’s internal patching matrix as your patchbay. "Affordable"? Oh wait....you said MOST affordable. In the eyes of the beholder I guess. The heat it puts off almost demands a machine room. 6 16 ch AD/DA's and a computer and a wad of hard drives put out a lot of heat. I have mine in a dedicated "large closet / small room" and it takes it's own mini-split AC system. And it's still working hard when there's snow on the ground. But yeah, once you get past the fear of DA/AD (I believe the vast amount of degradation happens in the first digitization, and subsequent round trips vary the sound very little if at all) it all becomes quite easy and elegant. Almost like mixing ITB. but of course you need quality (but not mega expensive) DA/AD - and of course the gear that it's designed to hook up and integrate. Most of the time I do virtually no patching in the bay (although it's full featured and I could) - instead stringing chains together via inserts in PTHDX. If I was starting from scratch, I'd probably go without a bay and let PT handle the matrix completely digitally. Or perhaps do a limited TT bay with key critical pieces that I track with. But as is - it's Simple. Sweet. and Fast. With one exception. Wire. The Achilles Heel of any analog based system. Be it Flock or AD/DA's or a console. Try going 96 i/o 40 feet from your gear / bays. Someone(s) awhile back were scoffing that I had close to $50k in wire / cables in the studio. It's no joke. I use Mogami exclusively and the round trip from the machine room to the bay is 80 ft. (That makes the round trip to the bay for ONE 16 ch rack about $1400 or so.) Round trips from the bay to various racks range from 20 to 80+ feet. That's a FREAKING lot of cable and connectors. (Edac / XLR;s here for everything) Of course, anyone whose ever built a traditional studio is well aware of the costs and issues that flexibility and patch bays bring into the fray.... The flock thing looks interesting, but it's way too limited for my use at this point. Doing it right for me demanded the above. And FOR ME, it was worth every penny to elegantly and simply integrate dozens of analog pieces into my DAW with zero thought (after the buildout). I was one scoffing. You can call me out, I'm not ashamed. |
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Post by drbill on Mar 13, 2019 11:55:15 GMT -6
"Affordable"? Oh wait....you said MOST affordable. In the eyes of the beholder I guess. The heat it puts off almost demands a machine room. 6 16 ch AD/DA's and a computer and a wad of hard drives put out a lot of heat. I have mine in a dedicated "large closet / small room" and it takes it's own mini-split AC system. And it's still working hard when there's snow on the ground. But yeah, once you get past the fear of DA/AD (I believe the vast amount of degradation happens in the first digitization, and subsequent round trips vary the sound very little if at all) it all becomes quite easy and elegant. Almost like mixing ITB. but of course you need quality (but not mega expensive) DA/AD - and of course the gear that it's designed to hook up and integrate. Most of the time I do virtually no patching in the bay (although it's full featured and I could) - instead stringing chains together via inserts in PTHDX. If I was starting from scratch, I'd probably go without a bay and let PT handle the matrix completely digitally. Or perhaps do a limited TT bay with key critical pieces that I track with. But as is - it's Simple. Sweet. and Fast. With one exception. Wire. The Achilles Heel of any analog based system. Be it Flock or AD/DA's or a console. Try going 96 i/o 40 feet from your gear / bays. Someone(s) awhile back were scoffing that I had close to $50k in wire / cables in the studio. It's no joke. I use Mogami exclusively and the round trip from the machine room to the bay is 80 ft. (That makes the round trip to the bay for ONE 16 ch rack about $1400 or so.) Round trips from the bay to various racks range from 20 to 80+ feet. That's a FREAKING lot of cable and connectors. (Edac / XLR;s here for everything) Of course, anyone whose ever built a traditional studio is well aware of the costs and issues that flexibility and patch bays bring into the fray.... The flock thing looks interesting, but it's way too limited for my use at this point. Doing it right for me demanded the above. And FOR ME, it was worth every penny to elegantly and simply integrate dozens of analog pieces into my DAW with zero thought (after the buildout). I was one scoffing. You can call me out, I'm not ashamed. haha! Wire = $$$ ya can't deny that. It adds up fast. I didn't pay out of pocket $50k - like you I did a bunch of it myself - but if I had to call up Redco or a studio integrator and order it, fabricated and assembled, it most certainly would approach that number.... |
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Post by svart on Mar 13, 2019 12:07:05 GMT -6
I was one scoffing. You can call me out, I'm not ashamed. haha! Wire = $$$ ya can't deny that. It adds up fast. I didn't pay out of pocket $50k - like you I did a bunch of it myself - but if I had to call up Redco or a studio integrator and order it, fabricated and assembled, it most certainly would approach that number.... I hear you. If I hadn't done it myself with used cables, studio pulls and such, I wouldn't have been able to afford all that I did. |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107
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Post by ericn on Mar 13, 2019 13:33:06 GMT -6
That’s part of why they analog matrices get impractical very quickly. You mean digitally controlled analog matrices? I do. You pretty much need bussing for each input to go to each output and switching for every input to possibly go everywhere. |
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