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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2019 13:44:43 GMT -6
I'm not sure they hide this in any way, I'm just now realizing it's a thing.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2019 13:51:32 GMT -6
OK - just added an 1176 and Pultec to the channel, recorded with LONG on and it's the exact same 30 samples delayed. So they are delayed by a set amount for short, medium and long. Couldn't you just pull all the drum tracks (or whatever you're recording with IDC on) 30 samples to the left and be fine? Kind of a PITA, though.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2019 13:54:56 GMT -6
I guess it would also matter what your buffer size is too? Here's something from Gannon a couple of years ago...
Hi guys -
Here's what we recommend - from the Apollo Software Manual:
When To Use Console Input Delay Compensation
Console IDC is required to maintain phase alignment only when BOTH of the following conditions are active:
1. Multiple Console inputs are used for a single source (such as a drum kit using multiple microphones), and
2. Any of those input channels contain upsampled UAD plug-ins.
Tip: When IDC is not needed, disable Console IDC for the lowest possible input latency.
It adds latencies from 100 to 1000 samples, so I always leave it off unless I'm doing coincident pairs or drums with different input chains.
Cheers!
-GK Gannon Kashiwa
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Post by popmann on Mar 8, 2019 14:09:48 GMT -6
OK - just added an 1176 and Pultec to the channel, recorded with LONG on and it's the exact same 30 samples delayed. So they are delayed by a set amount for short, medium and long. Couldn't you just pull all the drum tracks (or whatever you're recording with IDC on) 30 samples to the left and be fine? Kind of a PITA, though. There's no need for that. There's a record offset in every DAW I've used. My Burl takes 36 samples longer than the RME ADA....so, I keep it at 36 sample offset. It's different on the little Tascam USB thing I use on the Macbook--but, point is, there's always a way to code a manual offset. I measure it at the only sample rate I'm going to care about....and have it on a post it on those ADCs. And dragging as fix is bad because the timestamp on the recording is wrong. so, if you accidentally move it--or want that in another app to work with....the timestamp is wrong. So, unless you're planning on always remember that take needs to come back 30 samples...anyway--if you'll set the record offset in the DAW engine itself, it will account for that in the timestamp. For a single mic, I would leave this OFF. There's no advantage in having it on. The reason you turn it on is because 30 samples or handfuls of samples time difference in the mics on a drum kit is audible. When you leave it off and record a drum kit--those mics will all be delayed by different amounts...thus sound be f'd up....and maybe more importantly will change as you change UA plug ins. Their setting for a second compensation engine is so that it can send those all (apparently 30 samples) late but relatively the same time so YOU CAN set the 30 sample offset in your DAW and everything's tight as tits. I would think if you tag Drew he could probably provide the basic values to plug in if it's not just in the manual. It's in the VST Engine settings in Cubase...in the Audio Setup of Mixbus....I don't remember if it's in the global or project audio settings in LPX, but it's there....and you need to know how to use it. I would think they would want their users properly using these features rather than getting all worked up because they don't understand how/why features are there.
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Post by drumrec on Mar 8, 2019 14:11:57 GMT -6
I guess it would also matter what your buffer size is too? Here's something from Gannon a couple of years ago... Hi guys - Here's what we recommend - from the Apollo Software Manual: When To Use Console Input Delay Compensation Console IDC is required to maintain phase alignment only when BOTH of the following conditions are active: 1. Multiple Console inputs are used for a single source (such as a drum kit using multiple microphones), and 2. Any of those input channels contain upsampled UAD plug-ins. Tip: When IDC is not needed, disable Console IDC for the lowest possible input latency. It adds latencies from 100 to 1000 samples, so I always leave it off unless I'm doing coincident pairs or drums with different input chains. Cheers! -GK Gannon Kashiwa Now I was probably just more confused. As Gannon wrote "IDC adds latencies from 100 to 1000 samples, so I always leave it off unless I'm doing coincident pairs or drums with different input chains". How to then know how much latency from 100-1000 samples it will be on a drumtakes if you have different plugs at different shots. Also with overdubb (without IDC) after a drumtracking in the same arrangement in daw. Now I was just more confused, but useful info!
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Post by Drew @ UA on Mar 8, 2019 14:13:39 GMT -6
Did a quick scan of this thread......
You want this on whenever you need to maintain phase coherency within Console. If you've got 1 mic on something you don't need it. If you've got 1 mic on 1 thing and another mic on another, you probably don't need it.
10 mics on drums? 2 mics on a guitar cab? Bass Di and mic? And any of these channels contain different plugins, then absolutely yes you need it on.
I always recommend starting with it on Short in these situations and let Console tell you when you've exceeded it, which it will do.
Hope this helps and feel free to post follow ups or tell if I've missed something.
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Post by Drew @ UA on Mar 8, 2019 14:15:02 GMT -6
I guess it would also matter what your buffer size is too? Here's something from Gannon a couple of years ago... Hi guys - Here's what we recommend - from the Apollo Software Manual: When To Use Console Input Delay Compensation Console IDC is required to maintain phase alignment only when BOTH of the following conditions are active: 1. Multiple Console inputs are used for a single source (such as a drum kit using multiple microphones), and 2. Any of those input channels contain upsampled UAD plug-ins. Tip: When IDC is not needed, disable Console IDC for the lowest possible input latency. It adds latencies from 100 to 1000 samples, so I always leave it off unless I'm doing coincident pairs or drums with different input chains. Cheers! -GK Gannon Kashiwa Now I was probably just more confused. As Gannon wrote "IDC adds latencies from 100 to 1000 samples, so I always leave it off unless I'm doing coincident pairs or drums with different input chains". How to then know how much latency from 100-1000 samples it will be on a drumtakes if you have different plugs at different shots. Also with overdubb (without IDC) after a drumtracking in the same arrangement in daw. Now I was just more confused, but useful info! He means, if you don't need it, keep it off because it adds to the OVERALL latency of Console because it needs this extra time to do the compensating.
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Post by drumrec on Mar 8, 2019 14:51:19 GMT -6
Did a quick scan of this thread...... You want this on whenever you need to maintain phase coherency within Console. If you've got 1 mic on something you don't need it. If you've got 1 mic on 1 thing and another mic on another, you probably don't need it. 10 mics on drums? 2 mics on a guitar cab? Bass Di and mic? And any of these channels contain different plugins, then absolutely yes you need it on. I always recommend starting with it on Short in these situations and let Console tell you when you've exceeded it, which it will do. Hope this helps and feel free to post follow ups or tell if I've missed something. Hi Drew and thanks for heads up Then I make a long question short. Have I understood correctly that Apollo's drivers compensate "whatever" so the recorded source does not move any samples here or there in your DAW, depending on which plugs I use in the console.
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Post by Drew @ UA on Mar 8, 2019 14:56:53 GMT -6
Did a quick scan of this thread...... You want this on whenever you need to maintain phase coherency within Console. If you've got 1 mic on something you don't need it. If you've got 1 mic on 1 thing and another mic on another, you probably don't need it. 10 mics on drums? 2 mics on a guitar cab? Bass Di and mic? And any of these channels contain different plugins, then absolutely yes you need it on. I always recommend starting with it on Short in these situations and let Console tell you when you've exceeded it, which it will do. Hope this helps and feel free to post follow ups or tell if I've missed something. Hi Drew and thanks for heads up Then I make a long question short. Have I understood correctly that Apollo's drivers compensate "whatever" so the recorded source does not move any samples here or there in your DAW, depending on which plugs I use in the console. That is correct. With delay comp on, that takes care of the delays within Console, then our driver with the DAW take care of lining things up in the DAW during each record pass.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2019 15:20:55 GMT -6
Hi Drew and thanks for heads up Then I make a long question short. Have I understood correctly that Apollo's drivers compensate "whatever" so the recorded source does not move any samples here or there in your DAW, depending on which plugs I use in the console. That is correct. With delay comp on, that takes care of the delays within Console, then our driver with the DAW take care of lining things up in the DAW during each record pass. Did you see that I recorded a click and it was off in the DAW? What do you mean UA drivers line it up in the DAW? May concern is that when you use IDC in Console, it records to the DAW with set latency...that's correct, right?
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Post by brenta on Mar 8, 2019 16:23:45 GMT -6
That is correct. With delay comp on, that takes care of the delays within Console, then our driver with the DAW take care of lining things up in the DAW during each record pass. Did you see that I recorded a click and it was off in the DAW? What do you mean UA drivers line it up in the DAW? May concern is that when you use IDC in Console, it records to the DAW with set latency...that's correct, right? Do you have the delay compensation on in pro tools? I thought it was supposed to compensate and align everything.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 8, 2019 16:26:25 GMT -6
Yes. Pro Tools delay comp is engaged, but how would it know what sample delay Console has introduced?
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Post by brenta on Mar 8, 2019 19:57:06 GMT -6
I thought I read somewhere that it was worked into the driver for it to compensate the latency when you have low latency monitoring and and delay compensation engaged in pro tools, but I don’t know. This thread has me intrigued and I’d like to know more.
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Mar 8, 2019 21:22:33 GMT -6
Yes. Pro Tools delay comp is engaged, but how would it know what sample delay Console has introduced? Try repeating the test in Cubase..
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Post by drumrec on Mar 9, 2019 4:44:29 GMT -6
That is correct. With delay comp on, that takes care of the delays within Console, then our driver with the DAW take care of lining things up in the DAW during each record pass. Did you see that I recorded a click and it was off in the DAW? What do you mean UA drivers line it up in the DAW? May concern is that when you use IDC in Console, it records to the DAW with set latency...that's correct, right? Would be grateful if you could explain John K dealy in page 1 Drew @ UA Is it so that all tracks align but everything has a certain delay in to the DAW dependence on long, medium, short in ”Delay Compensation”. Thank you for helping with our question Drew, appreciated. Is about to make a big investment of 4 Apollo x in the big studio and want this 100% clear first. Thanks
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 9, 2019 9:48:23 GMT -6
I’ll try again...I thiiiink I have low latency checked in pro tools. But I need that so I don’t have to mute the delayed input, right? (Trying to remember) I’ll also try in Cuba’s.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 9, 2019 9:51:31 GMT -6
I thought I read somewhere that it was worked into the driver for it to compensate the latency when you have low latency monitoring and and delay compensation engaged in pro tools, but I don’t know. This thread has me intrigued and I’d like to know more. If it’s a certain equation/number of samples for each length of IDC, you would think it would/could be put into the drivers...
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Post by bigbone on Mar 9, 2019 14:08:15 GMT -6
Any system that you track with plugin and emu can be a snake oil regarding latency,specially if you send tracks as a remote session. Got to be sure what you track and send regarding grid and aligning to your song project.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 9, 2019 14:26:25 GMT -6
Some of this is over my head. So let's say I'm tracking a vocal and would like to use one of the UAD compressors going in so I can record with it. Does that delay my vocal to the DAW? Logic has a low latency mode I use when the recording, otherwise vocals are out of sync. It temporarily shuts down plug-ins, so no latency.
It's important to know if printing with UAD plugs causes delay. If it does, my DAW (Logic) fixes it? Hopefully Drew will help us out soon.
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Post by bigbone on Mar 9, 2019 14:35:21 GMT -6
Martin.Exactly what your saying Logic,and PrTool, shut the Plugin as you track to make sure your timing. or latency won't interfere with the timing of the recording or overdub that your doing, then the driver from your audio company interface should compensate if there are some latency......That's were it get tricky depend on your system , driver and audio interface. That look all simple on a chart regarding the latency but that isn't.That's why i never record with plugins.!!!!!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 9, 2019 15:21:31 GMT -6
One of the main selling points of the Apollo's is you can print with their plug-ins with no latency. They've been selling that since 2014. Does this mean it isn't true? I always thought if you had the skills, you could use all sorts of plug-ins in console to record with, and then you wouldn't need to use those plugs again saving tons of DSP power.
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Post by bigbone on Mar 9, 2019 15:39:17 GMT -6
Again as i said, on chart any system should work,not only UAD .any system that advertise no or low latency.In real life tracking that's another story.... I'm not dispute there claim, i'm just saying i don't have time to deal with all that plugin latency as i track or overdub on a session that's why i don't use the plugin on my way in. that doesn't mean it can't be done, i prefer to spend my time at other task.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 9, 2019 17:06:37 GMT -6
OK - NOT happening in Cubase. Top is with no IDC, bottom with Long selected.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 9, 2019 17:37:41 GMT -6
Nothing changes when Low Latency monitoring is off in Pro Tools. Something is not working correctly between Pro Tools and the UA Drivers.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 9, 2019 17:39:28 GMT -6
Can someone else repeat this test? Just set up a mic, put it in front of the monitors and record the click with IDC OFF, SHORT, MED and LONG?
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