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Post by popmann on Mar 5, 2019 17:51:00 GMT -6
BTW, FYI, I didn't mean any offense when I said "that guy". I didn't know his name.... I know. It just struck be that the more working class musicians go into hocking gear...at some point, we’ll all be “that guy”....Im waiting for him to be called “that Sweetwater guy”....as hes likely reaching a biggr audience than Spock’s Beard, Jonatha Brooke, Kevin Gilbert, and Genesis during the “No Phil” era did....
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Post by chessparov on Mar 5, 2019 21:55:16 GMT -6
In any event, I still like (love!) the tone of John K's Upton! That versus an original would be way cool to shoot out. Chris
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Post by Ward on Mar 5, 2019 22:06:48 GMT -6
What I heard in both cases: » Modern recreation Mics: Top end that is more open (and even pushing "harsh" on the 251!). » Vintage Elam 250/U47: Low mids/low end that feels "slow" dynamically. Almost like there is a Sta Level that is only affecting the low-mids/lows. The impression is that there is a "foundation" that isn't going way... the signal is constant and steady (coming toward me) in that area of frequencies. He's not wrong you know! The pushed or hyped top-end is idiomatic of all asian microphones. There is a western world perception that more top end = better sound. The offshore factories are only to happy to meet that requirement and fill those orders!! Face it. Most wannabe engineers/recordists/producers are fueling this and can't hear the difference!
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 5, 2019 22:32:08 GMT -6
Since they got busted pawning off chinese mics, they've tried really hard to sell the notion of them being all handmade in house.. Which I personally don't believe. They claim a 50% failure rate? Bullshit. Modern CNC processes can absolutely turn out 100% perfect backplates and tension rings. If someone like Shannon can hand tension capsules without a ton of failures in his little workshop, a fully funded company with a team of people building these things can surely do as good... Unless of course you read the word "produce" more figuratively instead of literally.. It makes me think they are buying tons of cheap chinese parts and doing hand selection. I can easily buy a 50% failure rate - if you're talking completed capsules. The rejects would be stripped down and reskinned.
I don't believe you can really CNC a skinning job. Also, CNC machines can't always do as well as a human craftsman for precision even for the metalwork - there's always a range of tolerance, but the human craftsman would be a heck of a lot slower.
How fast is Shannon? I would guess the answer is "not very".
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Post by svart on Mar 5, 2019 22:57:46 GMT -6
Since they got busted pawning off chinese mics, they've tried really hard to sell the notion of them being all handmade in house.. Which I personally don't believe. They claim a 50% failure rate? Bullshit. Modern CNC processes can absolutely turn out 100% perfect backplates and tension rings. If someone like Shannon can hand tension capsules without a ton of failures in his little workshop, a fully funded company with a team of people building these things can surely do as good... Unless of course you read the word "produce" more figuratively instead of literally.. It makes me think they are buying tons of cheap chinese parts and doing hand selection. I can easily buy a 50% failure rate - if you're talking completed capsules. The rejects would be stripped down and reskinned.
I don't believe you can really CNC a skinning job. Also, CNC machines can't always do as well as a human craftsman for precision even for the metalwork - there's always a range of tolerance, but the human craftsman would be a heck of a lot slower.
How fast is Shannon? I would guess the answer is "not very".
Clearly you've never worked with modern cnc then.. Easily 0.001" repeatable tolerances.. if you pay the money for it. And if they're really paying 1000$ COGS for a capsule, then yes, they're probably getting single mil tolerance. And I never said cnc skinning. I said a room full of people like Shannon. If he can do it with few failures, so can they.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 5, 2019 23:26:14 GMT -6
In any event, I still like (love!) the tone of John K's Upton! That versus an original would be way cool to shoot out. Chris Maybe I can coax jsteiger into letting me borrow Dolly for a comparison...
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 5, 2019 23:28:46 GMT -6
Since they got busted pawning off chinese mics, they've tried really hard to sell the notion of them being all handmade in house.. Which I personally don't believe. They claim a 50% failure rate? Bullshit. Modern CNC processes can absolutely turn out 100% perfect backplates and tension rings. If someone like Shannon can hand tension capsules without a ton of failures in his little workshop, a fully funded company with a team of people building these things can surely do as good... Unless of course you read the word "produce" more figuratively instead of literally.. It makes me think they are buying tons of cheap chinese parts and doing hand selection. I can easily buy a 50% failure rate - if you're talking completed capsules. The rejects would be stripped down and reskinned.
I don't believe you can really CNC a skinning job. Also, CNC machines can't always do as well as a human craftsman for precision even for the metalwork - there's always a range of tolerance, but the human craftsman would be a heck of a lot slower. How fast is Shannon? I would guess the answer is "not very".
Unfortunately, Shannon is at a dead stop right now. Several people have emailed me asking for help getting in touch with him...something is going on with him and I have no idea what it is.
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Post by chessparov on Mar 5, 2019 23:47:10 GMT -6
What's funny is that out of all my "Chinese cheapies" (MXL's V87/V69 & AKG 200/P120)...
It's the cheapest/lone MDC AKG P120 that has generally the best tone of them. I like it primarily for what it doesn't do (zing/harshness). But then again, that budget microphone (at it's best), can't compare to the depth/smoothness/clarity/detail of a higher level premium microphone. (yes, I used to want to believe it could!)
BTW I hope Shannon is doing OK. Chris
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 6, 2019 13:53:14 GMT -6
I posted about this mic before, but the SE X1 (terrible name) is shockingly good.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 6, 2019 13:53:34 GMT -6
Like $70 used.
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Post by donr on Mar 6, 2019 14:10:29 GMT -6
The vintage might need some EQ to stand out the same. Yeah, I know it was a 251 vs 251 demo, but I'm not sure the vintage mic is what I would have chosen for that guy. Yeah, he might have done better with an SM7b or 58. [ running and ducking]
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Post by adamjbrass on Mar 6, 2019 14:13:07 GMT -6
Does the vintage one have an AC701 in it? The Connecticut 251/250's have 6072A in them.
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Post by Vincent R. on Mar 6, 2019 14:26:55 GMT -6
Don’t forget this one:
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Post by drbill on Mar 6, 2019 17:01:04 GMT -6
Hey, it's "that guy" again! Both the vintage and new 12's are much closer to each other than the 251's were. I'd like either of these C12's significantly more than the vintage 251....
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 6, 2019 17:29:46 GMT -6
Does the vintage one have an AC701 in it? The Connecticut 251/250's have 6072A in them. I demoed a Tele USA with vintage capsule and AC701 yeeears ago...it was stunning.
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Post by Vincent R. on Mar 6, 2019 18:14:38 GMT -6
Does the vintage one have an AC701 in it? The Connecticut 251/250's have 6072A in them. I demoed a Tele USA with vintage capsule and AC701 yeeears ago...it was stunning. That’s what I’ve heard. Haven’t had the pleasure though.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 6, 2019 19:17:28 GMT -6
$11k ten years or so ago
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Post by Vincent R. on Mar 6, 2019 19:54:26 GMT -6
Pretty sure it’s the same now, but they only do short runs of them with the AC701k and I don’t think you’re getting a vintage capsule either.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,982
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Post by ericn on Mar 6, 2019 21:59:23 GMT -6
I posted about this mic before, but the SE X1 (terrible name) is shockingly good. Hey it will get you laid! Now let’s see I can get an Upton, have Tim or Shannon build and tune the capsule for me and buy how much SEX. 1?
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Post by chessparov on Mar 6, 2019 22:52:23 GMT -6
I shudder at running that mic through a Distressor. A Warm would be much better! Chris
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Post by popmann on Mar 6, 2019 23:22:41 GMT -6
I like the C12 better...either one...on both the singers.
I've never loved 251 clones. They always sound bloated on the bottom and sizzly on the top. And any of them I ever sang into pinched out when I hit them hard. I never understood how the C12, which is a downright boring (in the best way) mic could share a capsule with a 251. And I mean the AC701 is in some of my fave Neumann tube mics...obviously a tube type doesn't a head amp circuit make, but...man that must be more different than the tube itself.
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Post by timcampbell on Mar 7, 2019 5:09:48 GMT -6
To be fair I'm sure that the 251 the Telefunken is modelled after is probably brighter. This vintage 251 is not as bright as some I've heard. The tube or a capacitor choice could also be contributing to some of this harshness. At the time AKG built these mics 5 star 6072's were still being made and they could select the best of the best. Today buying even a 5 star GE is a crap shoot and many variants sound harsh. If I remember correctly Telefunken uses non 5 star GE's. With an hour's time on a workbench these 2 mics could be made to sound identical.
Telefunken does make their own CK12's in Conn.
Much has been said about the AC701 tube. Though it sounds brilliant in so many other mics, after hearing many non-export 250/251's I prefer the 6072 tubed export model.
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Post by adamjbrass on Mar 7, 2019 5:44:44 GMT -6
Does the vintage one have an AC701 in it? The Connecticut 251/250's have 6072A in them. I demoed a Tele USA with vintage capsule and AC701 yeeears ago...it was stunning. I sold a couple of them to very happy people.
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Post by iamasound on Mar 7, 2019 5:57:44 GMT -6
In this last shootout my ear, far and away is liking the Telefunk't.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,982
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Post by ericn on Mar 7, 2019 7:51:14 GMT -6
I demoed a Tele USA with vintage capsule and AC701 yeeears ago...it was stunning. I sold a couple of them to very happy people. And that’s all that really matters! At the end of the day who cares if it’s a $10K Telefunken or a $75 SE X1 if the buyers happy all is good. Of course I’ll admit to hearing way to many results of perfectly happy clients work that made my ears bleed, but damn it they were happy and I paid my rent!
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