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Post by drbill on Jan 31, 2019 15:43:16 GMT -6
Cheaper, cheaper, CHEAPER!!!!!!!!!! Aaaaaargh!! This is a Toyota vs. Porsche scenario. Porsche is (arguably) the most profitable car company in the world. Making a huge percentage (I forget how much) on each car they sell. While Toyota may sell 1000X's as many cars, they make a very small markup per car (I think it's around $300 or so) while making up for it in numbers, service and parts. Parts and Service are essentially a non-starter for a mic company, so you must do HUGE numbers if you shoot for the low hanging fruit. Which company is more profitable? Porsche no doubt. Who sells more cars. Toyota. No doubt. Porsche can sell 1000% less cars and still make as much "profit" as toyota. Which company do you want to be? That is what will determine both the quality and quantity of what you build. (PS - I know my numbers are off, but you get the point....)
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Post by chessparov on Jan 31, 2019 15:45:22 GMT -6
Why do you HAVE to be right Dr. Bill! Chris
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Post by drbill on Jan 31, 2019 15:48:01 GMT -6
Why do you HAVE to be right Dr. Bill! Chris hahaha! I don't "have" to be. Maybe I just lucked out??
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Post by mdmitch2 on Jan 31, 2019 15:48:28 GMT -6
Would a vintage style U87i be worthwhile for you guys to do, at around $1000? I'm not sure how much easier/cheaper to do that vs. how the H47 FET was to do. I realize I need a reality check on that one! Thanks, Chris P.S. Other than the usual harshness of Chinese capsules, my other pet peeve is how small they make a vocal sound! It's a possibility. Non tube mics are much cheaper to produce....
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Post by lpedrum on Jan 31, 2019 15:55:36 GMT -6
Or another way of putting it: I just produced a record and had use of a wonderful Flea 49. If that Flea was $1500 and not $4K I'd have already ordered it. Thats the way I think too.... But the studio likely wouldn't have bought a $1,500 M49 in the first place, right? As mentioned above, it seems like a big part of the challenge would be changing perceptions about what a $1500 mic can be... hopefully making them in the USA will aide in that cause. With wealth comes exclusivity. And with exclusivity comes the belief of better sounding music. Sometimes it's hard to push back against those types of perceptions. Not long ago I had to rent a studio for an artist based on the fact that it had an old school board. I appeased him, but the reality was that the board was only used to monitor the session, not for it's pres or eq. Getting back to the Flea 49, what strikes me is how beautiful the top end sounds without having to add "air" etc., and how it seems to deal with deessing in a natural way. If you can figure out how to make a mic for $1500 that accomplishes that sort of thing I think you'd have a winner. And I don't know what your skill set is, but if you can make a J45 that sounds like a 1950s J45 for $1500 that'd be great too!
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Post by lpedrum on Jan 31, 2019 15:58:03 GMT -6
Cheaper, cheaper, CHEAPER!!!!!!!!!! Aaaaaargh!! This is a Toyota vs. Porsche scenario. Porsche is (arguably) the most profitable car company in the world. Making a huge percentage (I forget how much) on each car they sell. While Toyota may sell 1000X's as many cars, they make a very small markup per car (I think it's around $300 or so) while making up for it in numbers, service and parts. Parts and Service are essentially a non-starter for a mic company, so you must do HUGE numbers if you shoot for the low hanging fruit. Which company is more profitable? Porsche no doubt. Who sells more cars. Toyota. No doubt. Porsche can sell 1000% less cars and still make as much "profit" as toyota. Which company do you want to be? That is what will determine both the quality and quantity of what you build. (PS - I know my numbers are off, but you get the point....) And yet, I own a Silver Bullet: well designed, impeccably made, sounds great, and very good bang for the buck!
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Post by mdmitch2 on Jan 31, 2019 16:04:09 GMT -6
Cheaper, cheaper, CHEAPER!!!!!!!!!! Aaaaaargh!! This is a Toyota vs. Porsche scenario. Porsche is (arguably) the most profitable car company in the world. Making a huge percentage (I forget how much) on each car they sell. While Toyota may sell 1000X's as many cars, they make a very small markup per car (I think it's around $300 or so) while making up for it in numbers, service and parts. Parts and Service are essentially a non-starter for a mic company, so you must do HUGE numbers if you shoot for the low hanging fruit. Which company is more profitable? Porsche no doubt. Who sells more cars. Toyota. No doubt. Porsche can sell 1000% less cars and still make as much "profit" as toyota. Which company do you want to be? That is what will determine both the quality and quantity of what you build. (PS - I know my numbers are off, but you get the point....) exactly... though Toyota is the most valuable car company in the world, and Porsche doesn't crack the top 10 (profitability aside). But I think we want to be somewhere in the middle -- what car would that make us? Engine of a Porsche... body of an Audi? Haha maybe not....
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Post by mdmitch2 on Jan 31, 2019 16:06:54 GMT -6
Well I liked (loved) your H47 FET a little MORE, than the Neumann 47 FET. So... You guys already accomplished one of the "great microphones for $1500"! Chris Thanks! Hopefully we can pull off the same feat again
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Post by mdmitch2 on Jan 31, 2019 16:11:32 GMT -6
I agree with Mike completely. If you can really nail the U67 sound and put it in an attractive body at $1,500, you'll sell way more than a great $3,000 mic. I don't think it has to look exactly like the 67, just similar. You could even do it with something like the generic body you see on Blackspade and some Avantone mics, they're very nicely made. There must be a U67/87 body available that's close. The Blackspade was the same exact thing as the Telefunken AK47 and costs 40% less. This is a first class look and it sold for around $1,000 under the Blackspade name, $1,895 as a Telefunken. You managed the Heiserman U47 FET at a great price, I'd love to see you take a go at a U67. C12's are more dependent on personal compatibility, 67's basically do everything well. The Blackspade and Avantone mics appear to be Chinese bodies with custom finishes. If we have our bodies made in the USA, it'll cost 5-10 times as much as an off the shelf Chinese body. For example, we could buy a decent u67 Chinese body for around $50-$75 and to make something in the USA might be $400 or more. The USA body would be unique and custom made with better quality control... a worthwhile tradeoff in my opinion. But I think a lot of people would just as soon have the Chinese body since it doesn't affect audio quality... It's pretty difficult to make a $1500 tube mic in the USA once you've accounted for the body, power supply, cable, tube, transformer, capsule, etc. But it won't stop us from trying!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 31, 2019 16:37:29 GMT -6
I'd say get the best Chinese body you can and then do your thing. I can't imagine every clone manufacturer makes their own bodies, do they? I'm no mic expert, and I realize a capsule and transformer are the main parts of a mic, but I also believe the bodies matter. The thing is, I bet a Chinese made body can be extremely close to the original, and if you handle the rest, well.. I think you'd nail it at a price point.
* I can tell you from experience, the fit and finish on the Avantone mics I have are first rate.
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Post by drbill on Jan 31, 2019 16:39:30 GMT -6
Cheaper, cheaper, CHEAPER!!!!!!!!!! Aaaaaargh!! This is a Toyota vs. Porsche scenario. Porsche is (arguably) the most profitable car company in the world. Making a huge percentage (I forget how much) on each car they sell. While Toyota may sell 1000X's as many cars, they make a very small markup per car (I think it's around $300 or so) while making up for it in numbers, service and parts. Parts and Service are essentially a non-starter for a mic company, so you must do HUGE numbers if you shoot for the low hanging fruit. Which company is more profitable? Porsche no doubt. Who sells more cars. Toyota. No doubt. Porsche can sell 1000% less cars and still make as much "profit" as toyota. Which company do you want to be? That is what will determine both the quality and quantity of what you build. (PS - I know my numbers are off, but you get the point....) exactly... though Toyota is the most valuable car company in the world, and Porsche doesn't crack the top 10 (profitability aside). But I think we want to be somewhere in the middle -- what car would that make us? Engine of a Porsche... body of an Audi? Haha maybe not.... Indeed. But may I humbly suggest that one must decide if selling 1000 cars and netting "x" amount of cash is worth more than selling 100,000 cars and netting the same "x" amount of cash. That's the question you need to answer before you go down the path of "which mic to create and at what price point". BEST of luck!!
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Post by mdmitch2 on Jan 31, 2019 16:55:13 GMT -6
exactly... though Toyota is the most valuable car company in the world, and Porsche doesn't crack the top 10 (profitability aside). But I think we want to be somewhere in the middle -- what car would that make us? Engine of a Porsche... body of an Audi? Haha maybe not.... Indeed. But may I humbly suggest that one must decide if selling 1000 cars and netting "x" amount of cash is worth more than selling 100,000 cars and netting the same "x" amount of cash. That's the question you need to answer before you go down the path of "which mic to create and at what price point". BEST of luck!! I welcome any and all advice from DrBill, humble or not. To your point, in my mind, the advantage of selling 100,000 vs 1,000 is that when you have 100,000 customers, you have a much larger base of customers who might be interested in the next product you make... However, there's certainly a lot of administrative/support and customer service issues that come along with the larger number of customers. Side note, we're consulting with some professionals regarding these types of questions, and how they tie into a distribution vs direct sales models..... but it's really interesting to get some feedback from you guys. It's immensely helpful! So thanks to everyone who's participated thus far.
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 31, 2019 16:55:44 GMT -6
Price it too high, and I’m out. Not that I wouldn’t buy an expensive mic, but if I’m gonna drop that kind of dough, I’m going with someone with an established history/pedigree/etc (i.e., Flea). No offense, but that’s the nature of a start up. I’d just as soon build something myself, but that’s where the Stam effect gets me. For what he’s charging, I couldn’t do much better going DIY. I’ve been considering the Tab funkenwerk M49 kit, but if you come in close pricewise and sonically with similar quality, that’s where you can get me.
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Post by reddirt on Jan 31, 2019 17:21:51 GMT -6
Why couldn't we be talking more in the 2 - 3,000 bucks area and give yourselves a bit of wiggle room without compromise. If the mic is demonstrably superior to the 1,500 mics then those who value that will save and buy. You may not have a frenzy on your hands but you'll probably have something that's able to be managed well , an enjoyable ride, reasonable profit and industry respect.
I note you say body quality doesn't have an effect on the sound ; I can't help thinking that it's resonance must carry to some degree.
Cheers, Ross
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Post by mdmitch2 on Jan 31, 2019 17:26:24 GMT -6
I'd say get the best Chinese body you can and then do your thing. I can't imagine every clone manufacturer makes their own bodies, do they? I'm no mic expert, and I realize a capsule and transformer are the main parts of a mic, but I also believe the bodies matter. The thing is, I bet a Chinese made body can be extremely close to the original, and if you handle the rest, well.. I think you'd nail it at a price point. * I can tell you from experience, the fit and finish on the Avantone mics I have are first rate. No, most of them use off the shelf Chinese bodies with little to no modification.... or if they’re doing huge volumes they may be able to make their own bodies in China (minimum order quantities are very high). But we’re trying to be several notches above the average “clone manufacturer.” In my mind, this means doing something more custom, for example offering the swivel mount and the different colors on the H47. We can only do that because we control 100% of the manufacturing. The more modern look is also something we’d like to maintain throughout most of our line. So for now, we’re doing everything we can to avoid using “off the shelf” parts/bodies. We’ll see how it plays out with the next couple mics we’re working on...
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 31, 2019 17:33:50 GMT -6
I'd say get the best Chinese body you can and then do your thing. I can't imagine every clone manufacturer makes their own bodies, do they? I'm no mic expert, and I realize a capsule and transformer are the main parts of a mic, but I also believe the bodies matter. The thing is, I bet a Chinese made body can be extremely close to the original, and if you handle the rest, well.. I think you'd nail it at a price point. * I can tell you from experience, the fit and finish on the Avantone mics I have are first rate. No, most of them use off the shelf Chinese bodies with little to no modification.... or if they’re doing huge volumes they may be able to make their own bodies in China (minimum order quantities are very high). But we’re trying to be several notches above the average “clone manufacturer.” In my mind, this means doing something more custom, for example offering the swivel mount and the different colors on the H47. We can only do that because we control 100% of the manufacturing. The more modern look is also something we’d like to maintain throughout most of our line. So for now, we’re doing everything we can to avoid using “off the shelf” parts/bodies. We’ll see how it plays out with the next couple mics we’re working on... I like the look of your custom Fet47. Your mic looks upscale. I say avoid the Chinese bodies like they're the bird flu. Check out a BeesNeez Producer series mic next to a Chinese body. Also, I don't think the $1500 price being discussed is attainable if your Fet47 is that price range.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Jan 31, 2019 17:37:02 GMT -6
Why couldn't we be talking more in the 2 - 3,000 bucks area and give yourselves a bit of wiggle room without compromise. If the mic is demonstrably superior to the 1,500 mics then those who value that will save and buy. You may not have a frenzy on your hands but you'll probably have something that's able to be managed well , an enjoyable ride, reasonable profit and industry respect. I note you say body quality doesn't have an effect on the sound ; I can't help thinking that it's resonance must carry to some degree. Cheers, Ross The $2500- $3000 range is somewhere we could land with super high quality USA made tube mics, and that’s where we are with the H47 Tube.... so we’ll use the sales of that mic as somewhat of a gauge for future products. And you’re the right that the body can have an impact on the sound, especially the headbasket, but even most Chinese mics have those issues pretty well sorted.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Jan 31, 2019 17:42:30 GMT -6
No, most of them use off the shelf Chinese bodies with little to no modification.... or if they’re doing huge volumes they may be able to make their own bodies in China (minimum order quantities are very high). But we’re trying to be several notches above the average “clone manufacturer.” In my mind, this means doing something more custom, for example offering the swivel mount and the different colors on the H47. We can only do that because we control 100% of the manufacturing. The more modern look is also something we’d like to maintain throughout most of our line. So for now, we’re doing everything we can to avoid using “off the shelf” parts/bodies. We’ll see how it plays out with the next couple mics we’re working on... I like the look of your custom Fet47. Your mic looks upscale. I say avoid the Chinese bodies like they're the bird flu. Check out a BeesNeez Producer series mic next to a Chinese body. Also, I don't think the $1500 price being discussed is attainable if your Fet47 is that price range. Thanks for the feedback — and yes $1500 was just a number that was getting thrown around early in the thread, but realistically it’s a stretch. If we were doing enough volume we could feasibly get our costs down enough to get close-ish to that number. Also the swivel arm on the H47 basically doubles the cost of that body, so we could actually make most mic bodies for less than that, which would help offset the cost of the tube and power supply (although only partially).
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 31, 2019 17:49:23 GMT -6
Also, not sure if Rycote mounts are an option for you guys, but I like them WAY better than the junky Chinese ones.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Jan 31, 2019 17:53:39 GMT -6
Also, not sure if Rycote mounts are an option for you guys, but I like them WAY better than the junky Chinese ones. Definitely have considered them... I just wish they looked a little more like the classic spider mounts. Seems to be the most affordable good quality mount though.
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Post by drbill on Jan 31, 2019 17:54:32 GMT -6
Why couldn't we be talking more in the 2 - 3,000 bucks area and give yourselves a bit of wiggle room without compromise. If the mic is demonstrably superior to the 1,500 mics then those who value that will save and buy. You may not have a frenzy on your hands but you'll probably have something that's able to be managed well , an enjoyable ride, reasonable profit and industry respect. I note you say body quality doesn't have an effect on the sound ; I can't help thinking that it's resonance must carry to some degree. Cheers, Ross Exactly. There IS middle ground between the $1500 mic and the Flea price range of mics.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 31, 2019 18:15:44 GMT -6
Also, not sure if Rycote mounts are an option for you guys, but I like them WAY better than the junky Chinese ones. Definitely have considered them... I just wish they looked a little more like the classic spider mounts. Seems to be the most affordable good quality mount though. I think they could work if you're going for the more modern look to the mics.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Jan 31, 2019 18:19:44 GMT -6
Definitely have considered them... I just wish they looked a little more like the classic spider mounts. Seems to be the most affordable good quality mount though. I think they could work if you're going for the more modern look to the mics. Very true — I’ve been meaning to contact them to see what options we might have for customization.
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Post by timcampbell on Jan 31, 2019 18:27:59 GMT -6
mdmitch2 you must not have checked out Blackspade's (now called BSA)product in a while. Their C12 and 251 are all european made and cost 3000 USD using only premium grade components. Yes the 4x and the 49b might but that's not their focus.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Jan 31, 2019 18:58:34 GMT -6
mdmitch2 you must not have checked out Blackspade's (now called BSA)product in a while. Their C12 and 251 are all european made and cost 3000 USD using only premium grade components. Yes the 4x and the 49b might but that's not their focus.
No I hadn’t seen those — they look really nice! Thanks for clarifying
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