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Post by brenta on Jan 31, 2019 9:21:02 GMT -6
One reason I didn’t vote for the U67 is Stam is already making one with a Heiserman capsule. Yeah it takes forever to get, but seems like a Heiserman 67 and Stam 67 wouldn’t be that different.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Jan 31, 2019 9:45:34 GMT -6
One reason I didn’t vote for the U67 is Stam is already making one with a Heiserman capsule. Yeah it takes forever to get, but seems like a Heiserman 67 and Stam 67 wouldn’t be that different. A fair point! I've heard that the Stam is a good sounding mic. Although if we made a version of the 67, I'm sure we'd end up with something quite a bit different.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Jan 31, 2019 10:01:00 GMT -6
A lot of folks on here have brought up a price point somewhere in the $1500 range for a version of a high end tube mic such as a u67. To make something like that in the USA, as is our strong preference, there are certain aspects that may not make the cut. For example, the exact shaoe of the body/headbasket, the pattern switching on the front of the headbasket, the beefy screw-on connectors... so would you rather have a made in USA mic that SOUNDS exactly like you want, and maybe doesn't look and function exactly like a u67, at a price close to $1500? Or would you like to have a mic with the exact look and sound for closer to $3k? We can do it either way.... or maybe both! But I'd like to prioritize what people want the most.
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Post by chessparov on Jan 31, 2019 10:04:31 GMT -6
$1500. Chris
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Post by drbill on Jan 31, 2019 10:08:45 GMT -6
A lot of folks on here have brought up a price point somewhere in the $1500 range for a version of a high end tube mic such as a u67. To make something like that in the USA, as is our strong preference, there are certain aspects that may not make the cut. For example, the exact shaoe of the body/headbasket, the pattern switching on the front of the headbasket, the beefy screw-on connectors... so would you rather have a made in USA mic that SOUNDS exactly like you want, and maybe doesn't look and function exactly like a u67, at a price close to $1500? Or would you like to have a mic with the exact look and sound for closer to $3k? We can do it either way.... or maybe both! But I'd like to prioritize what people want the most. I understand you guys are in business to make money. Doh! Obviously. But the market for low level "clones" (which IMO are not really clones) is clogged, and getting more clogged up every day. I believe we need tools which will LAST a lifetime (like the originals) that sound AWESOME - not close. That's my opinion. I'd prefer you stick to the low side of high priced vs. getting down and dirty into the fray of "cheapest clone on the market" - which can ultimately do a manufacturer in if they are not very careful. That's just my opinion. These days, any "clone" is treading dangerous water with stam, warm, behringer, and a host of others on the hunt to make their mark. Go high when everyone else is going low.
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Post by sean on Jan 31, 2019 10:18:51 GMT -6
drbill makes a good point. I think when you are trying to market vocal microphones, I think going high end makes sense. There's a big difference between $3000 and $6000 (Telefunken, Bock/Soundelux) so if you can knock it out of the park at $3000, it's worth trying to do it. And maybe take the Flea route and selling microphones with the same internals but different bodies/fewer polar patterns at a lower cost.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Jan 31, 2019 10:20:25 GMT -6
A lot of folks on here have brought up a price point somewhere in the $1500 range for a version of a high end tube mic such as a u67. To make something like that in the USA, as is our strong preference, there are certain aspects that may not make the cut. For example, the exact shaoe of the body/headbasket, the pattern switching on the front of the headbasket, the beefy screw-on connectors... so would you rather have a made in USA mic that SOUNDS exactly like you want, and maybe doesn't look and function exactly like a u67, at a price close to $1500? Or would you like to have a mic with the exact look and sound for closer to $3k? We can do it either way.... or maybe both! But I'd like to prioritize what people want the most. I understand you guys are in business to make money. Doh! Obviously. But the market for low level "clones" (which IMO are not really clones) is clogged, and getting more clogged up every day. I believe we need tools which will LAST a lifetime (like the originals) that sound AWESOME - not close. That's my opinion. I'd prefer you stick to the low side of high priced vs. getting down and dirty into the fray of "cheapest clone on the market" - which can ultimately do a manufacturer in if they are not very careful. That's just my opinion. These days, any "clone" is treading dangerous water with stam, warm, behringer, and a host of others on the hunt to make their mark. Go high when everyone else is going low. Thanks for your feedback. Our intention is to offer mics with zero compromise sonically.... but what we're trying to figure out is, if the $1500 and $3000 versions could sound exactly the same, what's the dollar amount that people place on looking/functioning exactly like the mic that's being emulated? I'm not talking about making something 'cheap' in any way... rather, just making something that doesn't go to extreme lengths to copy every aspect of a mics aesthetics, but still has 100% of the SOUND. The $1500 mic would still be a handsome, durable, mic that would last a lifetime.
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Post by m03 on Jan 31, 2019 10:22:08 GMT -6
If you can come up with some SDC options like the 84, that would work. No one is really doing the KM56 or KM54. Something tells me those would do really well if done right. +1
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 31, 2019 10:47:14 GMT -6
A lot of folks on here have brought up a price point somewhere in the $1500 range for a version of a high end tube mic such as a u67. To make something like that in the USA, as is our strong preference, there are certain aspects that may not make the cut. For example, the exact shaoe of the body/headbasket, the pattern switching on the front of the headbasket, the beefy screw-on connectors... so would you rather have a made in USA mic that SOUNDS exactly like you want, and maybe doesn't look and function exactly like a u67, at a price close to $1500? Or would you like to have a mic with the exact look and sound for closer to $3k? We can do it either way.... or maybe both! But I'd like to prioritize what people want the most. Having spent a good part of my life selling mics, I have. To say each price point brings a different type of customer. Who do you want to support ? Do you want to stay direct or at some point do you want to go to dealers? My advice figure out at what price point you can deliver the best value and let that determine your price point. The 47, C12 and ELAM clone markets are very crowded so if you continue in that area you have to ask what makes us different / better? M49 / M50 are some of my favorites and there is a giant hole between the Flea and the low end Beesneez but getting it right is the hard part. Here is what I would aim for, the idea of the H70, but build it with a interchangeable capsule and offer a C12 capsule and a couple of SDC’s then offer a tube electronics module.
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 31, 2019 10:51:36 GMT -6
No one is making anything in this market that is similar to the KM54's or the AKG C28's which to me is really crazy. The circuits for the C12, 251 and C28 are really similar, so components wise you could save money in bulk. There have already been very good results using more affordable tubes than the AC701, or, you could use a standard sized tube like some of the C28's did instead. But, I can tell you no one I've seen has come up with a decent tube SDC that has that same big tone as the KM54 or C28. Avantone did a version of the C28's, and there are some Chinese knocks, but no one did a proper one that has a good capsule. If I were a Mic company I would come up with a kick ass SDC capsule and I would start putting the old familiar type circuits around it, maybe building some filter sections and or harmonic circuits around main circuit to create something that's a good sounding mic, but has that little extra tickle to your ear.
I agree with Bill here, build it so it last's, don't skimp and stand on the shoulders of giants, they got to the moon, with the technology we have now, you guys should be going to Mars.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Jan 31, 2019 11:10:46 GMT -6
A lot of folks on here have brought up a price point somewhere in the $1500 range for a version of a high end tube mic such as a u67. To make something like that in the USA, as is our strong preference, there are certain aspects that may not make the cut. For example, the exact shaoe of the body/headbasket, the pattern switching on the front of the headbasket, the beefy screw-on connectors... so would you rather have a made in USA mic that SOUNDS exactly like you want, and maybe doesn't look and function exactly like a u67, at a price close to $1500? Or would you like to have a mic with the exact look and sound for closer to $3k? We can do it either way.... or maybe both! But I'd like to prioritize what people want the most. Having spent a good part of my life selling mics, I have. To say each price point brings a different type of customer. Who do you want to support ? Do you want to stay direct or at some point do you want to go to dealers? My advice figure out at what price point you can deliver the best value and let that determine your price point. The 47, C12 and ELAM clone markets are very crowded so if you continue in that area you have to ask what makes us different / better? M49 / M50 are some of my favorites and there is a giant hole between the Flea and the low end Beesneez but getting it right is the hard part. Here is what I would aim for, the idea of the H70, but build it with a interchangeable capsule and offer a C12 capsule and a couple of SDC’s then offer a tube electronics module. Thanks for chiming in Eric. It's good to hear from someone who's been on the sales side. I think your point about delivering the best value is spot on, and ultimately where we will land. We'd love to create something that appeals to both pro users and the higher end home studio market, and I think we've achieved that with our H47 fet mic. But I think for the high end vocal mics, it'a a bit more challenging to strike that balance because for many pro users, the exact look is as important as the sound.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Jan 31, 2019 11:19:23 GMT -6
No one is making anything in this market that is similar to the KM54's or the AKG C28's which to me is really crazy. The circuits for the C12, 251 and C28 are really similar, so components wise you could save money in bulk. There have already been very good results using more affordable tubes than the AC701, or, you could use a standard sized tube like some of the C28's did instead. But, I can tell you no one I've seen has come up with a decent tube SDC that has that same big tone as the KM54 or C28. Avantone did a version of the C28's, and there are some Chinese knocks, but no one did a proper one that has a good capsule. If I were a Mic company I would come up with a kick ass SDC capsule and I would start putting the old familiar type circuits around it, maybe building some filter sections and or harmonic circuits around main circuit to create something that's a good sounding mic, but has that little extra tickle to your ear. I agree with Bill here, build it so it last's, don't skimp and stand on the shoulders of giants, they got to the moon, with the technology we have now, you guys should be going to Mars. 100% agree on the KM54... and making SDC capsules. Anyone want to loan me a KM54 to accelerate my R&D??
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Post by avgatzeblouz on Jan 31, 2019 11:36:14 GMT -6
I think none of the clopnes in the 1500$ range nail the sound. If you nail it, and I mean indistinguishable differences once Eq'd, compressed, in all patterns, and with off-axis response, then you will be the only one. As far as mics to clone, I agree that those ones should come first : KM54, KM84, and Sony C37A (you already have the capsule).
About the price : most people I know that bought his 87 were very disappointed by the schockmount. The sound is good. I say : go for the cheapest with 100% sound-cloning, until one of the elements seems/looks/is too cheap.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Jan 31, 2019 11:51:18 GMT -6
I think none of the clopnes in the 1500$ range nail the sound. If you nail it, and I mean indistinguishable differences once Eq'd, compressed, in all patterns, and with off-axis response, then you will be the only one. As far as mics to clone, I agree that those ones should come first : KM54, KM84, and Sony C37A (you already have the capsule). About the price : most people I know that bought his 87 were very disappointed by the schockmount. The sound is good. I say : go for the cheapest with 100% sound-cloning, until one of the elements seems/looks/is too cheap. You're referring to Stam's 87 and shockmount ? The shockmount is a really tricky thing from a cost/quality perspective.... almost everyone manufacturer except Neumann is using the same ones from the same few factories. I'm looking into sourcing some higher quality shockmounts but there aren't many options, and the price difference is massive for a small improvement in quality.... like $30 vs $300. Our intention is to offer optional upgraded shockmounts on some of our mics so the end user can decide if the extra cost is worth it or not. Regarding nailing the sound in a $1500 mic... it's definitely possible in many cases, but the widespread perception that it's NOT possible would likely work against us.
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Post by avgatzeblouz on Jan 31, 2019 12:12:28 GMT -6
I think none of the clopnes in the 1500$ range nail the sound. If you nail it, and I mean indistinguishable differences once Eq'd, compressed, in all patterns, and with off-axis response, then you will be the only one. As far as mics to clone, I agree that those ones should come first : KM54, KM84, and Sony C37A (you already have the capsule). About the price : most people I know that bought his 87 were very disappointed by the schockmount. The sound is good. I say : go for the cheapest with 100% sound-cloning, until one of the elements seems/looks/is too cheap. You're referring to Stam's 87 and shockmount ? The shockmount is a really tricky thing from a cost/quality perspective.... almost everyone manufacturer except Neumann is using the same ones from the same few factories. I'm looking into sourcing some higher quality shockmounts but there aren't many options, and the price difference is massive for a small improvement in quality.... like $30 vs $300. Our intention is to offer optional upgraded shockmounts on some of our mics so the end user can decide if the extra cost is worth it or not. Regarding nailing the sound in a $1500 mic... it's definitely possible in many cases, but the widespread perception that it's NOT possible would likely work against us. Very good idea regarding the optionnal schockmount. About nailing the sound, I know it can be done, and I totally understand the widespread perception issue. But you can still prove them wrong, can't you ! What about the C37A idea ?
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Post by jtc111 on Jan 31, 2019 13:03:40 GMT -6
One reason I didn’t vote for the U67 is Stam is already making one with a Heiserman capsule. Yeah it takes forever to get, but seems like a Heiserman 67 and Stam 67 wouldn’t be that different. Some of us are never giving Stam a dime so another 67 option would be very welcome.
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Post by jtc111 on Jan 31, 2019 13:06:42 GMT -6
so would you rather have a made in USA mic that SOUNDS exactly like you want, and maybe doesn't look and function exactly like a u67, at a price close to $1500? Or would you like to have a mic with the exact look and sound for closer to $3k? We can do it either way.... or maybe both! But I'd like to prioritize what people want the most. If I can get the sound exactly right minus some functionality for $1500, I'm in. At $3000, I'd have to be absolutely floored to be a player.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Jan 31, 2019 13:10:15 GMT -6
You're referring to Stam's 87 and shockmount ? The shockmount is a really tricky thing from a cost/quality perspective.... almost everyone manufacturer except Neumann is using the same ones from the same few factories. I'm looking into sourcing some higher quality shockmounts but there aren't many options, and the price difference is massive for a small improvement in quality.... like $30 vs $300. Our intention is to offer optional upgraded shockmounts on some of our mics so the end user can decide if the extra cost is worth it or not. Regarding nailing the sound in a $1500 mic... it's definitely possible in many cases, but the widespread perception that it's NOT possible would likely work against us. Very good idea regarding the optionnal schockmount. About nailing the sound, I know it can be done, and I totally understand the widespread perception issue. But you can still prove them wrong, can't you ! What about the C37A idea ? The C37A would be cool to do... I haven't done a ton of research on it, but it appears to have a unique capsule, although I think a k67 may work as a replacement. It also has a pretty unique body and power supply. I would definitely need to get ahold of one to do some more investigation. I saw that tonelux announced a version that looks pretty cool, but forgoes some of the more unique features.
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Post by Vincent R. on Jan 31, 2019 13:21:14 GMT -6
For us classical music types a convincing (and reliable) M50 would be awesome. With a good M49 body and power supply you'd be well on your way. Rode has been threatening to release their TFM50 for a while now, but nothing seems to ever come of it. This!
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Post by mike on Jan 31, 2019 13:27:27 GMT -6
Regarding nailing the sound in a $1500 mic... it's definitely possible in many cases, but the widespread perception that it's NOT possible would likely work against us. I think the attitude of not being able to get the sound for $1500 has already changed for some consumers and while not yet for others, is slowly heading there more every year. The consumer market size and desire for comparable quality clones at $1500 is SO much larger than the market size at $3000 that those who do their clone Well for $1500, will sell a boatload regardless of an increasingly smaller group of naysayers. Bang for the buck is the #1 criteria for the majority of consumers and why it usually wins.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 31, 2019 14:15:27 GMT -6
I agree with Mike completely. If you can really nail the U67 sound and put it in an attractive body at $1,500, you'll sell way more than a great $3,000 mic. I don't think it has to look exactly like the 67, just similar. You could even do it with something like the generic body you see on Blackspade and some Avantone mics, they're very nicely made. There must be a U67/87 body available that's close. The Blackspade was the same exact thing as the Telefunken AK47 and costs 40% less. This is a first class look and it sold for around $1,000 under the Blackspade name, $1,895 as a Telefunken. You managed the Heiserman U47 FET at a great price, I'd love to see you take a go at a U67. C12's are more dependent on personal compatibility, 67's basically do everything well. Attachments:
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Post by chessparov on Jan 31, 2019 15:09:04 GMT -6
Well I liked (loved) your H47 FET a little MORE, than the Neumann 47 FET.
So... You guys already accomplished one of the "great microphones for $1500"! Chris
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Post by lpedrum on Jan 31, 2019 15:22:38 GMT -6
I understand you guys are in business to make money. Doh! Obviously. But the market for low level "clones" (which IMO are not really clones) is clogged, and getting more clogged up every day. I believe we need tools which will LAST a lifetime (like the originals) that sound AWESOME - not close. That's my opinion. I'd prefer you stick to the low side of high priced vs. getting down and dirty into the fray of "cheapest clone on the market" - which can ultimately do a manufacturer in if they are not very careful. That's just my opinion. These days, any "clone" is treading dangerous water with stam, warm, behringer, and a host of others on the hunt to make their mark. Go high when everyone else is going low. Thanks for your feedback. Our intention is to offer mics with zero compromise sonically.... but what we're trying to figure out is, if the $1500 and $3000 versions could sound exactly the same, what's the dollar amount that people place on looking/functioning exactly like the mic that's being emulated? I'm not talking about making something 'cheap' in any way... rather, just making something that doesn't go to extreme lengths to copy every aspect of a mics aesthetics, but still has 100% of the SOUND. The $1500 mic would still be a handsome, durable, mic that would last a lifetime. Or another way of putting it: I just produced a record and had use of a wonderful Flea 49. If that Flea was $1500 and not $4K I'd have already ordered it.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Jan 31, 2019 15:29:15 GMT -6
Thanks for your feedback. Our intention is to offer mics with zero compromise sonically.... but what we're trying to figure out is, if the $1500 and $3000 versions could sound exactly the same, what's the dollar amount that people place on looking/functioning exactly like the mic that's being emulated? I'm not talking about making something 'cheap' in any way... rather, just making something that doesn't go to extreme lengths to copy every aspect of a mics aesthetics, but still has 100% of the SOUND. The $1500 mic would still be a handsome, durable, mic that would last a lifetime. Or another way of putting it: I just produced a record and had use of a wonderful Flea 49. If that Flea was $1500 and not $4K I'd have already ordered it. Thats the way I think too.... But the studio likely wouldn't have bought a $1,500 M49 in the first place, right? As mentioned above, it seems like a big part of the challenge would be changing perceptions about what a $1500 mic can be... hopefully making them in the USA will aide in that cause.
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Post by chessparov on Jan 31, 2019 15:40:57 GMT -6
Would a vintage style U87i be worthwhile for you guys to do, at around $1000?
I'm not sure how much easier/cheaper to do that vs. how the H47 FET was to do.
I realize I need a reality check on that one! Thanks, Chris
P.S. Other than the usual harshness of Chinese capsules, my other pet peeve is how small they make a vocal sound!
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