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Post by bradd on Jan 3, 2019 14:06:06 GMT -6
Man. I'm really glad the electrons aren't as snobby as us humans. Is Warm Audio the highest end gear out there? No. Is it solid and a good value? Hell yes it is. They put a big target on their back disrupting the market the way they did several years ago when they sort of introduced the Budget Boutique thing. And it shows. Every Warm announcement thread is filled with a bunch of down-talking and You Kids Get Off My Lawn before anyone's heard the damn product. It's much better than software equivalents (I've blind AB'd it with friends/engineers a dozen times) and, at least in the case of the 1176 and Pultec, better than the Behringer(KT) offerings. Though Behringer is trying to put them out of business with the zero-profit-scorched-earth thing. It's not for everyone. Some can afford higher end stuff. Good for them. I like high end gear too and sometimes I shell out for it. That's no reason to resent the fact that the low end guys can also get their hands on some solid tools though. It's so trendy to trash Warm Audio and I think it's (in general) transparently disingenuous. Where's the outrage at BAE and Vintech and Heritage and all the others for their clones filled with the same Cinemag/AMI/Kenetek/Wima/Carnhill/Sowter/Altran/etc that you find in the Warm stuff? It’s not an anti clone thing, I’m pro clone, hell I have owned Warm, Purple, ADL, own one of the cheap Heritage Dan Alexander. First mics are tricky, very tricky 95% comes down to the capsule. Hunter. aka Round Badge has as much experience as anybody with good examples and clones so he knows what they bring to the party so haveing been in the room with a couple of good examples I take him very seriously. We not anti great bargains, or Warm, the thing is we know of some pretty decent affordable gear that will give you great sound, it just isn’t chasing the classics! All gear is the sum of its parts, if you put a $50 transformer with a fashionable brand name in a sub $1K street price piece competing with $1500-2K examples some where your cutting corners, this is where KT- Behringer has a distinct advantage, they buy in huge numbers and make or have made parts to order and don’t care about fashion components, of course they are Behringer. Here is the thing every 414, C12 and ELAm clone builder should be worried to death of, Harmon / AKG has new owners and if Samsung suddenly wants to be taken seriously all they have to do is hire somebody like Tim Campbell, Shannon Rhodes or Mr Haun and let them loose with the AKG archives and all their high tech machinery! I’ll bet you would suddenly hear clones at a fairly reasonable price point that would impress everyone. From years of dealing with Japanese Audio manufacturers, I can tell you they all have a very large chip on their corporate shoulders and perhaps a greater sense of history than anyone in the west. |
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Post by bradd on Jan 3, 2019 14:06:54 GMT -6
Good post, Eric. Just one correction. Samsung is South Korean.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 3, 2019 14:13:13 GMT -6
Good post, Eric. Just one correction. Samsung is South Korean. Yeah I screwed that one up, but same mindset😁 |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 3, 2019 14:50:46 GMT -6
Man. I'm really glad the electrons aren't as snobby as us humans. Is Warm Audio the highest end gear out there? No. Is it solid and a good value? Hell yes it is. They put a big target on their back disrupting the market the way they did several years ago when they sort of introduced the Budget Boutique thing. And it shows. Every Warm announcement thread is filled with a bunch of down-talking and You Kids Get Off My Lawn before anyone's heard the damn product. It's much better than software equivalents (I've blind AB'd it with friends/engineers a dozen times) and, at least in the case of the 1176 and Pultec, better than the Behringer(KT) offerings. Though Behringer is trying to put them out of business with the zero-profit-scorched-earth thing. It's not for everyone. Some can afford higher end stuff. Good for them. I like high end gear too and sometimes I shell out for it. That's no reason to resent the fact that the low end guys can also get their hands on some solid tools though. It's so trendy to trash Warm Audio and I think it's (in general) transparently disingenuous. Where's the outrage at BAE and Vintech and Heritage and all the others for their clones filled with the same Cinemag/AMI/Kenetek/Wima/Carnhill/Sowter/Altran/etc that you find in the Warm stuff? I found I preferred the UAD 1176 over the Warm 1176 |
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Post by ragan on Jan 3, 2019 15:05:24 GMT -6
Man. I'm really glad the electrons aren't as snobby as us humans. Is Warm Audio the highest end gear out there? No. Is it solid and a good value? Hell yes it is. They put a big target on their back disrupting the market the way they did several years ago when they sort of introduced the Budget Boutique thing. And it shows. Every Warm announcement thread is filled with a bunch of down-talking and You Kids Get Off My Lawn before anyone's heard the damn product. It's much better than software equivalents (I've blind AB'd it with friends/engineers a dozen times) and, at least in the case of the 1176 and Pultec, better than the Behringer(KT) offerings. Though Behringer is trying to put them out of business with the zero-profit-scorched-earth thing. It's not for everyone. Some can afford higher end stuff. Good for them. I like high end gear too and sometimes I shell out for it. That's no reason to resent the fact that the low end guys can also get their hands on some solid tools though. It's so trendy to trash Warm Audio and I think it's (in general) transparently disingenuous. Where's the outrage at BAE and Vintech and Heritage and all the others for their clones filled with the same Cinemag/AMI/Kenetek/Wima/Carnhill/Sowter/Altran/etc that you find in the Warm stuff? I found I preferred the UAD 1176 over the Warm 1176 Fair enough. Subjective stuff. It’s possible you just like a Rev E (UAD) better than a Rev D (WA76). I can’t get the weight or locked-in-place thing out of software that I can out of hardware like the WA76. I do like the UAD MKII versions though and I think they’re as good as any software emulation out there. |
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Post by Vincent R. on Jan 3, 2019 15:26:20 GMT -6
I'm sort of in the middle about all these things. A few years ago I had nearly enough budget mics & low end clones to record a small orchestral ensemble or even a small jazz Ensemble. Then I found myself singing into a higher end clone, a FleA 47 to be specific, next to my Advanced Audio mics. I suddenly realized what I had been missing. I literally sold off most of my budget mics and most of my low budget clones to start over with a few higher quality pieces. I don't think price equals quality, but I think there are pricing levels that give you an idea of what you are buying particularly with clones. There are also different factors to consider.
I put the new Warm stuff in the same category as Peluso and Advanced Audio. They are good solid mics. They are not however great representations of the mics they are emulating. They are in the ball park, but in a view partially obscured seat. Each of these manufactures is different and doing their own thing with these clones. John Peluso was first on the block. He took the original circuits, modified them as needed, put it in a nice package, and sold through boutique stores. He even designed the CEK12 capsule; an affordable, easily mass produced capsule based on the original CK12 and with a similar frequency response. That said, his mics are now a bit over priced since the market is now much bigger.
Dave from Advanced Audio started out as a mic modder, taking Apex 460s into C12 style mics, using similar mods that Oliver Archut had designed when designing his Lucas mics. Originally Dave used Peluso capsules before reaching out to the same manufacture in China with his own specs and requirements. He then expanded his line to include a 47, 49, 251, and modded 67 types. His mics are pretty bare bones though, using stock Chinese bodies and power supplies to keep cost low. He also uses 2 particular tube circuits for all his mics, using capsules, transformers, and the circuit itself to emulate the sound of each mic they are aiming for, using all modern available parts. The mics are clean sounding and like the Peluso's usually a bit brighter in character than their vintage counterparts.
Warm seems to be in the middle. Like Peluso the package is a bit nicer than AA. Also the circuits and tube stages are a little closer to their vintage counter parts than AA. Like Peluso they also modify the circuits a bit to make them more cost effective, etc. Even Dave mentioned that he was surprised they could use certain components in their mics and keep them at this price point. Warm has a great name and you can buy them anywhere. It's a plus for them. That said, sonically they still sit in this category.
When you start to get beyond this level of clones into the 2k range you have a few options. You have custom builders like Chad at SAE or Shannon if you have more of a budget or a mic to mod, or small shops like Stam. Otherwise you need to go further up into the true boutique realm at 4k and up, and there are still a bunch of options; Wunder, Bock, FleA, Telefunken, companies who made a name for themselves making budget clones now releasing more accurate replicas like Bees Neez, and a slew of very small repair guys now making their own mics from parts they've had commissioned for their repair work like RMS, etc. Each of these guys makes quality products and makes their interpretation of these mics. Pricing for these can be all over the place too, but if you know about each business you can understand why. The game is essentially still the same.
Looking at boutique builders like Wunder, Bock, FleA, and Telefunken Elektroakustik the pricing differences are easy to discern. David Bock is dedicated to making mics that sound like the vintage classics, but with his own twists and solely with modern and available parts. They are made in the US where labor costs more. Wunder which is also made in the US sources most of it's parts elsewhere and assembles them. You're paying for the premium parts in their wunderful mics, but also a mark up on those part. That's business. FleA makes quite a lot of parts and their parts can often be found in their high end competitor's microphones as well. Modifications are made in the design of their mics to compensate for discontinued and rare tubes and such. Prices can be kept low due to Eastern European labor which costs less than US labor. Telefunken is similar to FleA in that they are trying to create the best replicas they can of the classic mics and their own new designs. However you are paying for US labor and you are paying for the name Telefunken to be stamped all over the place. Are their mics better than a FleA, Bock, or Wunder.... in build quality probably not. Sonically, it depends on your aesthetic and what your "ideal" sound is for that classic mic.
ericn 's argument is simple. Why buy this lower budget clone when there are mics that are off the beaten path that will do just as good or better than these clones at similar pricing. There are a number of Gefell mics with M7 capsules in the $1200-$1600 range that will do you as good and probably better than many of these cheap clones. They don't have the number 47 or 49 attached to it, but they'll sound terrific. He mentioned the Dan Alexander 1272 which I guarantee if you put it next to an AMS Neve or BAE that we would be split as to which is actually best and it would depend more on our aesthetic as artists rather than the cost of the gear.
All that said, if I somehow nabbed a commission to record a small orchestral ensemble onsite in a hall and needed a few mics quickly on a budget those Warm and AA mics would work just fine, especially when peppered with a few of my higher quality mics and some creative preamp decisions.
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Post by chessparov on Jan 3, 2019 15:56:05 GMT -6
FWIW I've (only) heard a few audio clips, of 3U's FET version, of the 251... But impressive so far.
Chris
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 3, 2019 16:06:33 GMT -6
It’s not an anti clone thing, I’m pro clone, hell I have owned Warm, Purple, ADL, own one of the cheap Heritage Dan Alexander. First mics are tricky, very tricky 95% comes down to the capsule. Hunter. aka Round Badge has as much experience as anybody with good examples and clones so he knows what they bring to the party so haveing been in the room with a couple of good examples I take him very seriously. We not anti great bargains, or Warm, the thing is we know of some pretty decent affordable gear that will give you great sound, it just isn’t chasing the classics! All gear is the sum of its parts, if you put a $50 transformer with a fashionable brand name in a sub $1K street price piece competing with $1500-2K examples some where your cutting corners, this is where KT- Behringer has a distinct advantage, they buy in huge numbers and make or have made parts to order and don’t care about fashion components, of course they are Behringer. Here is the thing every 414, C12 and ELAm clone builder should be worried to death of, Harmon / AKG has new owners and if Samsung suddenly wants to be taken seriously all they have to do is hire somebody like Tim Campbell, Shannon Rhodes or Mr Haun and let them loose with the AKG archives and all their high tech machinery! I’ll bet you would suddenly hear clones at a fairly reasonable price point that would impress everyone. From years of dealing with Japanese Audio manufacturers, I can tell you they all have a very large chip on their corporate shoulders and perhaps a greater sense of history than anyone in the west. I don't really disagree with anything you say here, except the implication that the relationship between retail price and inherent quality is linear. I don't think it is at all. Some corners that are cut do in fact affect the sonics and performance, some don't at all. Paint jobs, metal work and western labor are all factored into a high end piece and not in an overseas made product like Warm or Stam. Jacks and switches can be downgraded to non-boutique-favs and still maintain a good level of quality and longevity. Each piece and each company is its own complex equation as far as what exactly the buyer is paying for. Sometimes you're paying a lot just for prestige. Even when it's earned prestige (say Neumann) it's still something that someone on a limited budget would be smart to avoid spending money on. There's just no simple, straightforward way to map out cost and quality. But it's certainly not linear. The Warm 251 will undoubtedly not have all the magic of a pristine vintage original. But is an original a 30x better mic? Take a Peluso or Pearlman 47 clone or something. It's not a mint original, but is it 7x worse a mic? I think making any strict generalizations is a fool's errand here. Saying, "A $700 _________ could never compete with a $2000 ______" based on the prices is just false in my experience. Sometimes you get what you pay for and sometimes a cheaper option with fewer middlemen and less pedigree is equal or better. And saying everything Warm or Stam or whoever makes is 'crap' just tells me not to take that person seriously, regardless of their status and reputation. Everything is relative. It all depends on how picky/critial/demanding you are and what your references are.
One thing is certain - the bar has been raised considerfably for the lower price point condenser mics over the last few years.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 3, 2019 16:08:35 GMT -6
Good post, Eric. Just one correction. Samsung is South Korean. Yeah I screwed that one up, but same mindset😁 South Koreans are HIGHLY competitive with the Japanese. It goes back to WWII, if not farther. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jan 3, 2019 16:16:51 GMT -6
It’s not an anti clone thing, I’m pro clone, hell I have owned Warm, Purple, ADL, own one of the cheap Heritage Dan Alexander. First mics are tricky, very tricky 95% comes down to the capsule. Hunter. aka Round Badge has as much experience as anybody with good examples and clones so he knows what they bring to the party so haveing been in the room with a couple of good examples I take him very seriously. We not anti great bargains, or Warm, the thing is we know of some pretty decent affordable gear that will give you great sound, it just isn’t chasing the classics! All gear is the sum of its parts, if you put a $50 transformer with a fashionable brand name in a sub $1K street price piece competing with $1500-2K examples some where your cutting corners, this is where KT- Behringer has a distinct advantage, they buy in huge numbers and make or have made parts to order and don’t care about fashion components, of course they are Behringer. Here is the thing every 414, C12 and ELAm clone builder should be worried to death of, Harmon / AKG has new owners and if Samsung suddenly wants to be taken seriously all they have to do is hire somebody like Tim Campbell, Shannon Rhodes or Mr Haun and let them loose with the AKG archives and all their high tech machinery! I’ll bet you would suddenly hear clones at a fairly reasonable price point that would impress everyone. From years of dealing with Japanese Audio manufacturers, I can tell you they all have a very large chip on their corporate shoulders and perhaps a greater sense of history than anyone in the west. I don't really disagree with anything you say here, except the implication that the relationship between retail price and inherent quality is linear. I don't think it is at all. Some corners that are cut do in fact affect the sonics and performance, some don't at all. Paint jobs, metal work and western labor are all factored into a high end piece and not in an overseas made product like Warm or Stam. Jacks and switches can be downgraded to non-boutique-favs and still maintain a good level of quality and longevity. Each piece and each company is its own complex equation as far as what exactly the buyer is paying for. Sometimes you're paying a lot just for prestige. Even when it's earned prestige (say Neumann) it's still something that someone on a limited budget would be smart to avoid spending money on. There's just no simple, straightforward way to map out cost and quality. But it's certainly not linear. The Warm 251 will undoubtedly not have all the magic of a pristine vintage original. But is an original a 30x better mic? Take a Peluso or Pearlman 47 clone or something. It's not a mint original, but is it 7x worse a mic? I think making any strict generalizations is a fool's errand here. Saying, "A $700 _________ could never compete with a $2000 ______" based on the prices is just false in my experience. Sometimes you get what you pay for and sometimes a cheaper option with fewer middlemen and less pedigree is equal or better. And saying everything Warm or Stam or whoever makes is 'crap' just tells me not to take that person seriously, regardless of their status and reputation. While they don’t have to be boutique, any mechanical part should always be very high quality, I’ll argue a manufacturer should spend more here, but then I spent a good part of my time sitting next to a service dept. Cheap Jacks can have corrosion and be slightly off sized and never quite mate right. Pots and switches are rated for duty cycles and you would be surprised how quick those marks can be hit, if they are not regular use dust is a major PITA! They don’t have to be brand name but they need to be high quality. Quality! |
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Post by tskguy on Jan 4, 2019 8:05:48 GMT -6
Hey guys, This is an interesting thread especially from a new American made mic company perspective. Warm is smart in what they do... They use some american made parts to help make the chinese manufactured parts more appealing. Bottom line manufacturing a mic like warm does is relatively easy. You hire a contract manufacture in china to do pretty much everything, You send the parts you they cant source ie.. Cinemag transformers (Dave is the best!) and some time later they send a pallet of mics to your distributer. All the work that Warm does in developing the brand and making sure the mic sounds relatively close to the mic they are emulating. Guys like Heiserman Bock Flea Lawson etc... Do everything!! In house. Capsules Bodys boards, everything!! And trust me.. The cost and quality of the Body is the in my opinion the biggest cost difference. Is it better?? Thats the real test for me.. I think yes.. I hope Heiserman can fill the gap between guys like Warm and the Bock and Flea type guys.. We will see  Hope to see some of you at NAMM!! Booth 10828 |
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Post by Vincent R. on Jan 4, 2019 9:33:30 GMT -6
Hey guys, This is an interesting thread especially from a new American made mic company perspective. Warm is smart in what they do... They use some american made parts to help make the chinese manufactured parts more appealing. Bottom line manufacturing a mic like warm does is relatively easy. You hire a contract manufacture in china to do pretty much everything, You send the parts you they cant source ie.. Cinemag transformers (Dave is the best!) and some time later they send a pallet of mics to your distributer. All the work that Warm does in developing the brand and making sure the mic sounds relatively close to the mic they are emulating. Guys like Heiserman Bock Flea Lawson etc... Do everything!! In house. Capsules Bodys boards, everything!! And trust me.. The cost and quality of the Body is the in my opinion the biggest cost difference. Is it better?? Thats the real test for me.. I think yes.. I hope Heiserman can fill the gap between guys like Warm and the Bock and Flea type guys.. We will see Hope to see some of you at NAMM!! Booth 10828 We're looking forward to hearing what you have on the work bench and the drawing board. |
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Post by pope on Jan 4, 2019 15:21:23 GMT -6
It looks like they're using some relays. Is it a common thing to use relays on mics? I'm not a mic expert by any means. I just love using them. |
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Post by Guitar on Jan 4, 2019 15:46:47 GMT -6
It looks like they're using some relays. Is it a common thing to use relays on mics? I'm not a mic expert by any means. I just love using them. It's an easy way to do the pattern selection. I think it originated on the Chunger/Poctop/GroupDIY mics. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. The 251 was essentially the c12 with a rolled off top end, due to some added resisters I think. So, think smoother C12. It's really not that simple. Yes, the ELAM has a small 100 pF cap on the high end. Some of the clones don't have this, including the super high end Telefunken Elektroacoustic for 10 thousand. The capsule itself was tuned differently The body and head grille are different Different capacitor types Different biasing scheme in the tube amplifier Various component value differences Differenct capsule to tube coupling scheme (direct) Different transformer in some cases Different power supply It adds up to being a "cousin" microphone, not a C12 "with an extra cap" by any means. The ELA M 251 was designed by AKG to replace the U47 for Telefunken during the time the U47 was being discontinued due to tube shortages. They needed a new flagship microphone to sell with the telefunken badge. So AKG came up with the 251, obviously using some of the ideas and parts from the C12. |
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Post by pope on Jan 4, 2019 15:51:24 GMT -6
It looks like they're using some relays. Is it a common thing to use relays on mics? I'm not a mic expert by any means. I just love using them. It's an easy way to do the pattern selection. I think it originated on the Chunger/Poctop/GroupDIY mics. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks! "originated"? OK, I see.. |
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Post by swurveman on Jan 4, 2019 16:04:49 GMT -6
More imitation ("clones") mics & with numbers 12,47, 67, 251, etc. & CHEAPer than ever. If Upton, Telefunken USA, Bock, etc are costing 5 times what this one costs there's something missing here. And isn't a "CEK-12" capsule a Peluso? The CEK12 was designed by John Peluso, yes. A number of companies make them; Peluso, Advanced Audio, Microphone parts, and now Warm. I owned a Peluso P12- which uses the CEK12- and it was bright as hell. Sold it. |
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Post by Guitar on Jan 4, 2019 16:22:39 GMT -6
The CEK12 was designed by John Peluso, yes. A number of companies make them; Peluso, Advanced Audio, Microphone parts, and now Warm. I owned a Peluso P12- which uses the CEK12- and it was bright as hell. Sold it. I don't like the Peluso CEK-12. I had to get them out of there. So bright you can't get rid of it if you try. Good on some sources but not all, which is the death of it. Much prefer the ADK GK-12d in my personal 251 build. |
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Post by sirthought on Jan 4, 2019 16:50:08 GMT -6
The cost and quality of the Body is the in my opinion the biggest cost difference. Is it better?? Thats the real test for me.. I think yes.. I don't want to throw the Warm discussion off track, but I'd love to see a post with you discussing what differences in the body make an impact and justify a difference in cost/quality. I understand the grill mesh can impact reflection of the sound source. |
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Post by ragan on Jan 4, 2019 17:15:50 GMT -6
I owned a Peluso P12- which uses the CEK12- and it was bright as hell. Sold it. I don't like the Peluso CEK-12. I had to get them out of there. So bright you can't get rid of it if you try. Good on some sources but not all, which is the death of it. Much prefer the ADK GK-12d in my personal 251 build. That ADK will have an awful lot in common with the capsule Warm is using. |
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Post by Guitar on Jan 4, 2019 17:19:03 GMT -6
I don't like the Peluso CEK-12. I had to get them out of there. So bright you can't get rid of it if you try. Good on some sources but not all, which is the death of it. Much prefer the ADK GK-12d in my personal 251 build. That ADK will have an awful lot in common with the capsule Warm is using. Oh cool. Do you have any details related to this? I am really interested in learning about capsule sourcing specifically in China since so many come from over there. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 4, 2019 17:41:58 GMT -6
@monkey, I am always perplexed by all the difference people say there are between the c12 and the 251 as essentially due to a contract agreement lastpng I had always understand that they basically rebranded the c12 and made very minor change to it it for the 251, perhaps after other changes were made ? Is that what you are referring to ? Just curious not arguing .
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Jan 4, 2019 18:00:18 GMT -6
The CEK12 was designed by John Peluso, yes. A number of companies make them; Peluso, Advanced Audio, Microphone parts, and now Warm. I owned a Peluso P12- which uses the CEK12- and it was bright as hell. Sold it. Same here. Useless to me. |
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Post by Ward on Jan 4, 2019 18:01:51 GMT -6
But ragan, what if they're right . . . .and the king's new wardrobe does leave much to the eye? |
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Post by ragan on Jan 4, 2019 18:27:16 GMT -6
But ragan , what if they're right . . . .and the king's new wardrobe does leave much to the eye? Wait...I don't know who the king is in this analogy... |
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Post by EmRR on Jan 4, 2019 18:43:09 GMT -6
It looks like they're using some relays. Is it a common thing to use relays on mics? I'm not a mic expert by any means. I just love using them. It's an easy way to do the pattern selection. I think it originated on the Chunger/Poctop/GroupDIY mics. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. The first I saw was the ioaudio MK47, which was a kit on GroupDIY. |
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Hope to see some of you at NAMM!! Booth 10828
