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Post by johneppstein on Nov 16, 2018 12:15:05 GMT -6
But specific weirdos aside, what’s wrong with the science? I didn’t watch the whole thing but what I saw was basic stuff. Well, fgor one thing it only tests half the system. Because the null test exists entirely in the digital domain it totally ignores the analog front and back ends of a system - and since a great many of todays converters are using the same few chips, quite often the sonic differences come from differences in the design and layouit of the analog sections.
And for some reason there are often noticeable differences bertween devices that null "perfectly".
And, er, well, it's ETHAN! Without a cat!
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 16, 2018 12:21:11 GMT -6
But specific weirdos aside, what’s wrong with the science? I didn’t watch the whole thing but what I saw was basic stuff. I'm a fierce advocate of science and the scientific method, especially in this day and age where people seem to believe they can just make up their own facts. The thing with Ethan is that he has a knack for blowing the whole experiment up when he fears he is about to be proven wrong. Or, to put it bluntly, Ethan has been caught cheating and then clumsily changing his story when he got caught.
It's really kinda sad. He really does so much want to be the James Randi of audio.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 16, 2018 12:31:09 GMT -6
I’m game. Ethan chooses not to post here. I was probably type A on him so I accept most of the blame. It’s probab a better place without the controversy. Edit to say I haven’t watched the video. I will never understand why people go wild because of someone who can proof his point. In times where people stop believing in facts just to justify thier BS anything seems to be possible? I still love facts and I hate if people want to make me believe that they don't need facts for thier arguments. The problem with Ethan is that he's not above faking evidence and fudging results when things don't turn out his way. And he refuses to admit that there might be things that his primitive techniques can't measure. And he has a ridiculously crappy audio chain. As I recall he runs everything through both a Mackie 1202 AND a Rane DJ mixer.
I was part of the notorious GS thread (now mysteriously vanished) where he claimed he could prove that a Sandblaster card was as good as any pro quality converter and was discovered to have fudged the files for the listening test.
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Post by Quint on Nov 16, 2018 12:45:00 GMT -6
I will never understand why people go wild because of someone who can proof his point. In times where people stop believing in facts just to justify thier BS anything seems to be possible? I still love facts and I hate if people want to make me believe that they don't need facts for thier arguments. The problem with Ethan is that he's not above faking evidence and fudging results when things don't turn out his way. And he refuses to admit that there might be things that his primitive techniques can't measure. And he has a ridiculously crappy audio chain. As I recall he runs everything through both a Mackie 1202 AND a Rane DJ mixer.
I was part of the notorious GS thread (now mysteriously vanished) where he claimed he could prove that a Sandblaster card was as good as any pro quality converter and was discovered to have fudged the files for the listening test.
Yes, THAT thread was one of the shit shows I was referring to. What a clusterfuck. He also wasted a ton of everyone's time that was also involved in putting the experiment together. That was maybe the worst part.
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 16, 2018 13:01:13 GMT -6
Anyway.
I always bought the the German brand Sommer for all Studio conections and it sounds good to me. Done.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2018 13:48:23 GMT -6
Yes, the more you know, the more you know what you don't know. It's the ever expanding Venn diagrams of knowledge.
I see this with my guitar practice, been serious for over two years now (around 2 hours "proper" regimented practice, plus another two hours of "fucking around", at least five days a week). The stuff I don't know/can't do is proper scary, and only increasing!
As far as Ethan goes, I've had a couple of run ins with him, and have absolutely no intention of repeating them. His minion hordes will attack you even if you are staying rational and scientific. I have no interest in facing that kind of ignorance and hypocrisy. Dude is a loser.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 16, 2018 15:19:34 GMT -6
Yes, the more you know, the more you know what you don't know. It's the ever expanding Venn diagrams of knowledge. I see this with my guitar practice, been serious for over two years now (around 2 hours "proper" regimented practice, plus another two hours of "fucking around", at least five days a week). The stuff I don't know/can't do is proper scary, and only increasing! As far as Ethan goes, I've had a couple of run ins with him, and have absolutely no intention of repeating them. His minion hordes will attack you even if you are staying rational and scientific. I have no interest in facing that kind of ignorance and hypocrisy. Dude is a loser. You mean it wasn’t a soundBLASTer😁
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Post by mrholmes on Nov 16, 2018 15:31:15 GMT -6
I think Ethan tries to prove HE's right as opposed to what is going on. in other words he makes the statement that there is NO difference between cables or AD converters then tries to prove his statement is true rather than actually test what is going on. For example the idea that 2 D/A converting devices are identical because they use the same chip is easily proven incorrect - simply go buy any two consumer CD/DVD/MP3 or whatever that use the same chip and they most likely won't sound the same as the chips won't have been implemented the same (PSU, Layout, analog components, etc.). Obviously any difference between short lengths of cable is going to be subtle and would require much higher resolution to hear/measure. In the video he discounts the fact that hum is picked up differently in the cables due to positioning, he's using a handheld playback device's output (headphone jack?) and there is so much amplifier noise one can't really say much more than the two cables audibly null to the noise floor (which is high) when monitoring off a tiny speaker across the room being picked up on a video camera's internal mic (now THAT is a good audio source to use to judge!?!) even visually he's using an analog VU meter but talking about things to the 0.001 dB. Also... in any studio you are going to have LONG runs of multiple cables packed together in very close proximity to each other, amplifiers, electrical wiring, etc. sometimes carrying line level vs. mic level and digital signals. This is where shielding, noise resistance, capacitance, etc. comes in to play in a real world situation. I'm not saying that a lot of the cable sellers aren't full of BS I'm just saying this test doesn't prove it one way or another
good point...
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Post by adamjbrass on Nov 16, 2018 16:06:55 GMT -6
The dull tester
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Nov 16, 2018 16:58:52 GMT -6
You made me do a spit take all over the dog!
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Post by nobtwiddler on Nov 16, 2018 17:00:07 GMT -6
It has to be about 20 years ago now. Back then I was dismayed with what I was doing at that time in the studio...
Basically doing a lot of very heavy, and instrumental prog stuff. You know the stuff that takes hours & or days just to get 30 seconds printed.
Not my cup of tea so to speak, & Not what I signed on for. Plus the editing, and processing was ridiculous. Wasn't really music anymore...
But I had a good reputation for that genre and my clientele loved the studio & it paid the bills! But that was part of the problem, I was doing that, just to pay the bills. The love of making music was lost. I wanted more.
One day I was speaking to audiophile friends of mine, (writers for Fi & Sterophile magazine) and I told them I was in the doldrums making music this way, and a few of them invited me over to their homes to give a listen to their systems. So I went and listened to many systems, and all different types of music (other then heavy shit) The experience changed my life. Listening thru some of these systems blew my mind. I had never heard playback so realistic anywhere like what I was hearing, even in small apartments. Astonishingly good.
Granted they weren't playing death metal and the like, but that said, I never heard anything like it before. You were inside the music, it was a revelation.
So off I went into Audiophila land.
Spent about 75K on a small but amazing little system for my then apartment living room.
Wilson Watt Puppy 8 Speakers (94 db efficient) Moth Audio single full range driver speakers Cary Audio 300B Signature Single Ended 300B Mono Block Triode amplifiers, Cary Audio Signature Tube Pre-Amp Wadia CD turntable Mark Levinson, 36 D to A convertor Mark Levinson 333 Power amp (for when I wanted a transistor amp) Siltech, Nordost, and Kimber cables. Genex 9000 for playback of raw DSD mix files, (I had the Genex 9048 Multitrack DSD recorder in the studio)
Life was good, and well recorded music was (is) breathtaking on this system...
OK, so long story short, this brought me back, I now had hope as there was beautiful music being made, and recorded. And the sonics I heard from this system made me smile again.
Then one day, Geoff Daking was in the studio with me commissioning the very first Daking 52270 Console.
When we took a break, I told Geoff about my new system, so we walked over to my place, and I started playing him some stuff. He thought it sounded wonderful, and asked what was what, and how much this & that was etc, etc... Now if you know Geoff, then this will come as no surprise. When we got to the cables, he said.... (and I quote)
WHAT ! You paid HOW MUCH for this shit. "You bought into this HiFi HOMO CRAP" Come on, take me into town now! So Geoff & I drove directly to the hardware store, he then purchased a $5.00, 6 foot (2 prong) brown electric extension cord. When we returned to my place he then cut the ends off, and said OK, let's give your $$$ speaker cables a good listen, and then replace them with this, and tell me if you hear a difference... He & I, and all my assistants came over, and we listened, & listened.
I'm sure you can figure the rest out.
Ethan does have a point~!
Ps, I still have the system, the $$$ cables, as well as the cut off extension cord! And yes, It still sounds amazing !
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 16, 2018 18:15:18 GMT -6
Yes, the more you know, the more you know what you don't know. It's the ever expanding Venn diagrams of knowledge. I see this with my guitar practice, been serious for over two years now (around 2 hours "proper" regimented practice, plus another two hours of "fucking around", at least five days a week). The stuff I don't know/can't do is proper scary, and only increasing! As far as Ethan goes, I've had a couple of run ins with him, and have absolutely no intention of repeating them. His minion hordes will attack you even if you are staying rational and scientific. I have no interest in facing that kind of ignorance and hypocrisy. Dude is a loser. The sock puppet army!
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 16, 2018 18:26:46 GMT -6
Ethan does have a point~! Indeed, even beside the one on top of his head.
The big problem with Ethan is that where he's actually right is submerged in a tsunami of self serving crap and unsubstantiated opinions based on nothing but ego and his fervent desire to emulate James Randi. And his absolute willingness to resort to any level of misrepresentation to "prove" his "point"... He makes a mockery of the Scientific Method and in doing so utterly devalues anything of substance he might have to say.
Which is too bad, really.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 16, 2018 22:38:21 GMT -6
Nobtwiddler, the "not hearing any difference in cables" thing has been debunked many times. This is a decades old argument. Differences between things like cables can take time before you notice them, and then you can't un-notice them and they bug you no end. That kind of test has its own bias. Guys like Jim Williams and Bob Olhsson can better speak to the scientific technicalities than I can.
I won't spend one minute watching that crank's video. He turns a friendly discussion into a landmine, shows no respect at all to accomplished musicians and engineers who differ with him. He's just completely insufferable and was just poison to deal with. After some nasty exchanges, I happened to meet him at AES and in a split second I laughed at myself for wasting one minute of my time getting annoyed with the sorriest person I've met in decades. I wouldn't put stock in anything that man says.
Johnken, it wasn't you John.
*one thing about the internet, it empowers people equally. We evolved our instincts and inner sense over million of years. That first impression is far more complex than it seems, and since we can't get the personal feedback to assess someone we're dealing with, it leads to issues we might never have bothered with if we were face to face having a conversation.
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Post by notneeson on Nov 17, 2018 16:27:59 GMT -6
Debunked is an awfully strong word to backup what is really an opinion. No disrespect.
Add to which Daking and Nobtwiddler aren’t your average internet opiners, all due respect to the excellent Bob O.
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Post by drbill on Nov 17, 2018 17:54:25 GMT -6
Boy, Ethan's gertting fat! And where's his pussy? This is maybe my favorite post of all time on RGO. Laughing so loud John...... BTW, you spelled getting wrong, but it doesn't matter.
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Post by ragan on Nov 17, 2018 18:36:31 GMT -6
Nobtwiddler, the "not hearing any difference in cables" thing has been debunked many times. This is a decades old argument. Just imagine how tired of the 'controversy' the electrons are. They're many many decades old! They're just trying to go about their business and seek out potential differences, not giving a rat's ass if they're in a lamp cord or a piece of hand-spun, Oxygen free, artisan crafted, blessed-by-Mayan-virgins-during-the-solstice, 'directional' work of (marketing) art, and we keep making up all these wild stories about them. Poor little guys never asked for such a spotlight.
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Post by nobtwiddler on Nov 17, 2018 18:45:12 GMT -6
"Boy, Ethan's gertting fat! And where's his pussy?"
Haha Good boy John,
I actually almost spit out my "St. Bernardus Abbot 12. And that woulda been a real tragedy.
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Post by donr on Nov 17, 2018 20:59:38 GMT -6
I watched the video. I think Ethan is on sturdier ground with his Null Tester and short lengths of RCA cable than he had been with other assertions. I don't think the guy is evil (at least not here,) and I get where he's coming from as an electrical engineer and designer. He's not an awful guitar player either.
It would be interesting if he'd first demonstrated the Null Tester revealing definite sonic differences between two different flavor of known mic pres for instance, between his splitter and the null tester. That would show that the Null tester CAN identify and quantify the difference between two dissimilar devices that just about anyone with an ear and understanding of the tech could accept if not hear without the null. Then you'd know the Null Tester works as advertised.
I think if he did this, people who gave a damm would pay more attention to what he's saying. If you could hear the Null Difference between a Neve and API mic pre, for example, and by listening to the null result, begin to sonically understand the difference, and maybe grok the value of having such a tool yourself, the same-ass hiss of the wire comparison might fly better.
You wonder if Ethan had ever in his quest for the practical and commercially viable Null Tester, had ever tested dissimilar things for null results. That's what I want to see.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 18, 2018 11:14:13 GMT -6
Boy, Ethan's gertting fat! And where's his pussy? This is maybe my favorite post of all time on RGO. Laughing so loud John...... BTW, you spelled getting wrong, but it doesn't matter. I never claimed to be a good typist.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 18, 2018 11:26:26 GMT -6
I watched the video. I think Ethan is on sturdier ground with his Null Tester and short lengths of RCA cable than he had been with other assertions. I don't think the guy is evil (at least not here,) and I get where he's coming from as an electrical engineer and designer. He's not an awful guitar player either. It would be interesting if he'd first demonstrated the Null Tester revealing definite sonic differences between two different flavor of known mic pres for instance, between his splitter and the null tester. That would show that the Null tester CAN identify and quantify the difference between two dissimilar devices that just about anyone with an ear and understanding of the tech could accept if not hear without the null. Then you'd know the Null Tester works as advertised. I think if he did this, people who gave a damm would pay more attention to what he's saying. If you could hear the Null Difference between a Neve and API mic pre, for example, and by listening to the null result, begin to sonically understand the difference, and maybe grok the value of having such a tool yourself, the same-ass hiss of the wire comparison might fly better. You wonder if Ethan had ever in his quest for the practical and commercially viable Null Tester, had ever tested dissimilar things for null results. That's what I want to see. I don't think that's what Ethan is interested in "proving".
Ethan is more interested in proving that perceived differences between different things - say, a Soundblaster and a Symphony, or two different cables - DON'T exist than in proving that differences between two obviously different things do. At least that's been the thrust of most of his "debunking" over the years.
Incidentally, I just watched the first 5 minutes of his video (after 10 or so years I c an only take him in small chunks, if at all) and I noticed that he's now claiming to be a designer of professional recording consoles and outboard gear, which is interesting, since his previous occupation before becoming an insulation pimps was as a computer programmer and I've never heard of him doing any pro level audio electronics design before, let alone designing a full blown LFAC. Which begs the question - If he has designed and built full blown studio consoles, the why in his own "studio" does he use a Mackie 1202 and a Rane DJ mixer? Wouldn't he have something a liitle bit higher quality? And why would he be wasting his time selling insulation to bedroom musicians? And doing an online search for his past history I find nothing, although apparently he has now put his book "The Audio Expert" up online as a free PDF, which must really thrill his publisher...
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Post by ragan on Nov 18, 2018 11:52:26 GMT -6
If he's a fraudulent dude who fakes stuff, then f*** him. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with null theory (there isn't). Though as svart points out, there's a lot of systematic interplay that muddies the waters. And though it's still not actually the case that it's the cables imparting a 'sound', it could sometimes be the case that the resultant 'sound' is in fact different. Audibly or not is an entirely different question. I think expectation bias is probably an exponentially larger factor in what makes people believe in stuff like Cable Sonics or Extra Fancy Three Foot IEC Cables and whatnot. I think 99.9% of that kind of stuff is pure, unadulterated illusion.
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Post by drbill on Nov 18, 2018 12:05:38 GMT -6
I think 99.9% of that kind of stuff is pure, unadulterated illusion. Hahaaaa!! You're going to have to prove that!!!
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 18, 2018 12:12:44 GMT -6
If he's a fraudulent dude who fakes stuff, then f*** him. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with null theory (there isn't). Though as svart points out, there's a lot of systematic interplay that muddies the waters. And though it's still not actually the case that it's the cables imparting a 'sound', it could sometimes be the case that the resultant 'sound' is in fact different. Audibly or not is an entirely different question. I think expectation bias is probably an exponentially larger factor in what makes people believe in stuff like Cable Sonics or Extra Fancy Three Foot IEC Cables and whatnot. I think 99.9% of that kind of stuff is pure, unadulterated illusion. I think there might be a possibility that in a large studio situation where you might have literally miles of wire running between different rooms and pieces of gear there might actually be an audible difference between some high tech cables and standard quality, especially if you get into using stuff like pure silver conductors. For short runs, probably not so much. But I really would like to see a null test between a mile of expensive silver cable and a mile of plain copper. The test would need to be conducted using a full range music signal.
In general though it's not something I worry about. I don't have anywhere near the budget for it to be a real issue.
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Post by Ward on Nov 18, 2018 13:17:56 GMT -6
I think 99.9% of that kind of stuff is pure, unadulterated illusion. USE YOUR ILLUSION!
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