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Post by aremos on Aug 24, 2018 11:23:19 GMT -6
If it HAS to be Neumann why haven't I heard anyone mention U89, TLM170? Those are just about the best (still) being made.
And of course the U67 reissue sounds great!
Have to agree with Chessparov that the U47Fet is excellent on a lot of vox. Can't imagine ANY Chinese mic surpassing it.
The REDD is definitely a contender. But if you want to really go all the way, may I suggest the Sony C-800G?
TLM 170 is probably the best current Neumann, but not the best for getting the best vocal sound every time, that Honor goes to the 87 with 67 as honorable mention because of price. Huge Sony fan but the C800/G is wonderful when it works but an 87 is a far better mic when it isn’t the right mic, and that’s why they are the standard! Personally Though for the cost of a New Ai or a vintage 87, I would grab a used UM70 and a used C38fet or C48. That’s me thought. Yes, as you state, not every time is the 170/89 the "best" for vox. But compared to the 87 I do find them better balanced & smoother. And I really like the 67 - a lot! I don't know why but there's something about the 87 that has bugged me since it came out. To me there's this "nasal" aspect of it, a "boxyness", with a lot of voices. Yet for instruments I think it does a great job. Since you mentioned the C38/48 stuff, have you tried the Josephson C715 (or Manley Ref Silver)? They're supposed to be based on those capsules I believe.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Aug 24, 2018 12:04:31 GMT -6
TLM 170 is probably the best current Neumann, but not the best for getting the best vocal sound every time, that Honor goes to the 87 with 67 as honorable mention because of price. Huge Sony fan but the C800/G is wonderful when it works but an 87 is a far better mic when it isn’t the right mic, and that’s why they are the standard! Personally Though for the cost of a New Ai or a vintage 87, I would grab a used UM70 and a used C38fet or C48. That’s me thought. Yes, as you state, not every time is the 170/89 the "best" for vox. But compared to the 87 I do find them better balanced & smoother. And I really like the 67 - a lot! I don't know why but there's something about the 87 that has bugged me since it came out. To me there's this "nasal" aspect of it, a "boxyness", with a lot of voices. Yet for instruments I think it does a great job. Since you mentioned the C38/48 stuff, have you tried the Josephson C715 (or Manley Ref Silver)? They're supposed to be based on those capsules I believe.
First I am not a 87 fan, great mic for me to judge what mic will work better, but I do admit while I seldom think it’s “ the mic “ for that singer, seldom do I think it sucks so yeah I recommend it because of that it seldom sucks quality it’s easy to get good vocals and, for me, great where I know it’s “ The golden vocal sound” Well the fact that everyone knows the look of that mic helps as well. I haven’t heard either , I would to try the Groove tubes with that capsule, but haven’t as of yet. The Manley silver and the Josephson scare my bank account. Though I would like to try the Tonelux FET copy.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2018 17:44:35 GMT -6
... I think nothing but a Neumann would do. Maybe that vintage U87 is not a bad idea after all... If it HAS to be Neumann why haven't I heard anyone mention U89, TLM170? Those are just about the best (still) being made.
And of course the U67 reissue sounds great!
Have to agree with Chessparov that the U47Fet is excellent on a lot of vox. Can't imagine ANY Chinese mic surpassing it.
The REDD is definitely a contender. But if you want to really go all the way, may I suggest the Sony C-800G?
The U89 is for me what the U87 is for many, not often my first choice but always does the job with good results (on anything). It's a mic without any real flair, but that's it's downfall and most attractive quality all at the same time. I've heard hit and miss examples of many popular mic's, but I've still yet to hear a "miss" for the U89.
Definatley one of the best mic's Neumann do by far.
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Post by longscale on Aug 25, 2018 13:18:42 GMT -6
I wonder if the non Ai version is worth the extra price and hassle of buying vintage instead of new... Only your ears can tell you that. For me the answer is yes. I've owned/used both. It is rather hard to describe the sound differences. Both are usable quality microphones. But my ears find the Ai to be hard/harsh and spitty on top. This is one of those things that you have to hear and use for yourself and then judge what works for you. I found the vintage 87s to be easy to use, and sounded right every time, where I struggled with the Ai to make it do what I wanted. I will say that same fear of vintage buying is what got me the experience I now have with the u87ai and km184s. I don't regret the lesson/education/experience with the tools, but I now know that for my use I find the 84s and the 87i to be what I'm after.
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Post by Vincent R. on Aug 26, 2018 7:51:31 GMT -6
I know you have your heart set on a Neumann, but I’ve chatting with cdkelly about his custom microphone builds. He has a wonderfully specked 67 he builds that might be worth a look if you’re willing to forgo the Neumann badge.
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Post by tyford on Sept 2, 2018 11:43:21 GMT -6
The Audio Technica AT 5040. I know, "it's only AudioTechnica."
Listen to one anyway.
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Post by chessparov on Sept 2, 2018 12:45:44 GMT -6
Ty, as a fellow TLM 67 fan, how would you rate them respectively as vocal "all rounders"?
Other than the U47 FET reissue, my favorite of the current Neumann's is the TLM67. I really like the flatter midrange vs. the U87ai. Thanks, Chris
P.S. The MaxMod option sounds kinda cool too, on the TLM 67.
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Post by Ward on Sept 2, 2018 13:02:40 GMT -6
The Audio Technica AT 5040. I know, "it's only AudioTechnica." Listen to one anyway. Oddly enough, the one AT microphone I'e been considering adding to the locker. Just because it's different! Attachment Deleted
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Post by tyford on Sept 2, 2018 13:20:44 GMT -6
Ty, as a fellow TLM 67 fan, how would you rate them respectively as vocal "all rounders"? Other than the U47 FET reissue, my favorite of the current Neumann's is the TLM67. I really like the flatter midrange vs. the U87ai. Thanks, Chris P.S. The MaxMod option sounds kinda cool too, on the TLM 67. I like the TLM 67 a lot. (Hard to believe that it's been six years since i reviewed it.) As I said in that review, I was waiting for the mic industry to figure out that they didn't need to emphasize the HF as much because of recording in the digital domain versus analog tape. I figured that some users would not get why it's a great sounding mic. I remember having a chat with one of the Neumann guys about how long it would take for people to warm up to it. He knew exactly what I did about how the market reacts and said that they knew they had to be patient. I think that most people who don't "get' the TLM 67 have never heard a Schoeps, unfortunately..... I don't know about the MaxMod.
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Post by chessparov on Sept 2, 2018 13:25:41 GMT -6
This why "in the cheap seats", I always liked the Oktava 219/319 voicing. For a long time, it seemed like the only option vs. the "Chinese sizzle"!* Chris
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Post by Vincent R. on Sept 3, 2018 8:27:31 GMT -6
At the end of last year I picked up the TLM67 circuit from someone who is exclusively using the MK67 now. I really like it. It's not exactly a U67 though. It's a bit more open with less bottom end, and on certain sources the circuit that emulates tube like qualities can seem a little boxy. It works really well on my voice, but admittedly I think that a U67 sounds a little dark on my voice as well. I've had a bunch of 67ish mics over the last few years; Advanced Audio's CM67LE with a vintage mod, the MK67, TLM67, and now a B11 cap for my BLUE Bottle Rocket II system. The B11 sounds the most like a the U67s I've tried in regards to the top end of the microphone. It reminds me a lot of the U67 I tried at Barbershop Studios back in Nov. I use the TLM67 a lot when I get operatic studio vocal commissions as it's more neutral than my FleA 49, and a lot of classical guys like that. I found it a little boxy on my wife's voice and her voice just shines with the B11.
I had the MK67 up next to the real U67 that day as well. I found the MK67 to be less open on the top, but also more beefy in the low mids, creating an overall darker microphone than the U67. I found the MK67 was much too dark on my voice and most of the voices I tried it on, without extensive EQ. I have used it on my wife's voice with a 3-4db boost at 8khz with a pultec on a crooning track and it worked really well. Also, it just didn't work on her operatic selections. Her voice just sounded dull. A soprano voice shouldn't be made to sound dull on her top range. The B11 sounds great on her in this context. In fact I'm using that microphone as the main vocal microphone for a full new musical album I'm recording and it has shined on every singer I've tried so far; a bari-tenor, mezzo soprano, lyric soprano, and dramatic soprano. Some of that album will post in October on the musical's website and I'll post it on RGO somewhere. Some people on this board love the MK67, so I know it works for some, but it wasn't for me. Then again, I record BIG voices that are often really warm already and don't need the extra boost, just a mic that will capture the low end as it is.
Anyway, below is a clip of me singing through the TLM67 and B11 simultaneously. Below that is the clip from the Barbershop Studios with the U67, MK67, and an M269 for good measure.
TLM67 vs BLUE Bottle Rocket Stage II w/B11
U67 vs MK67 vs M269
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 3, 2018 8:42:22 GMT -6
Well, I liked the U67 out of the 3. The MK67 was boxed in, M269 was nice, but a pinch thin and just not quite as well balanced as the U67 was.
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Post by aremos on Sept 3, 2018 9:50:02 GMT -6
Between the TLM67 v. BLUE, the TLM67 was more natural & balanced than the BLUE. Between the U67 v. MK67 v. M269, it was a tough choice between the U67 & the M269. But had to give the edge to the M269.
The more I use my U67 reissue the more I'm loving it! It really handles just about any voice in a positive way. And I do classical, jazz, pop & rock. The only thing that some times doesn't "please" me, & very seldom, is certain sibilances. It's very rare but does happen.
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Post by Vincent R. on Sept 3, 2018 9:55:41 GMT -6
Well, I liked the U67 out of the 3. The MK67 was boxed in, M269 was nice, but a pinch thin and just not quite as well balanced as the U67 was. For me what was funny about the M269 was how well it sat in the mix. That's why I picked up the RMS269 last year, which was nice, but ultimately not what I was looking for. Having it at the studio for 8 month helped me try it on enough styles and sources to figure that out though.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2018 9:59:06 GMT -6
The Audio Technica AT 5040. I know, "it's only AudioTechnica." Listen to one anyway. Oddly enough, the one AT microphone I'e been considering adding to the locker. Just because it's different!
Had one for a week, the detail was immense but it picked up mouth sounds and was rather sibilant on singers.. Also from time to time it sounded a little bit "thin" when a singer needed that forward proximity effect, then again on acoustic and make shift wooden drums it was pretty wow..
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Post by Vincent R. on Sept 3, 2018 10:04:47 GMT -6
Between the TLM67 v. BLUE, the TLM67 was more natural & balanced than the BLUE. Between the U67 v. MK67 v. M269, it was a tough choice between the U67 & the M269. But had to give the edge to the M269. The more I use my U67 reissue the more I'm loving it! It really handles just about any voice in a positive way. And I do classical, jazz, pop & rock. The only thing that some times doesn't "please" me, & very seldom, is certain sibilances. It's very rare but does happen. What's funny is how often the TLM67 vs BLUE is the opposite on other voices. I agree though, the TLM67 sounds really nice on my voice. The M269 was really nice in this instance, particularly in the context of the full mix. I didn't post it, but the M49c was the leader of the pack for me. It was also up along with the U47FET, Sony C37A, and my AA CM49, which did surprisingly well among such high hitters, finding a sound somewhere between the M49C and the M269.
Sibilances happen with all microphones at times, accept maybe some vintage ribbons. It's totally source dependent. I wish I had the funds for the U67 reissue. I will probably settle for a custom 67 build as soon as I have some funds to utilize for it.
Nice to talk with someone else working on classical work and jazz too. Then you really know what I mean when I say BIG VOICE.
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Post by aremos on Sept 3, 2018 11:09:31 GMT -6
Vincent, thanks for all the info & videos you put out.
BTW, in the REDD v. 87 you did which one did YOU personally like on yourself (which is what ultimately counts). I definitely liked the REDD on every segment over the U87! But then again I don't like the 87. The 67 is really nicer & smoother in the mids which I feel the 87 has an "artificial" aspect to it. Per the sibilance, yes it's source dependent but when the 67 doesn't handle it well I have to end up cutting out the "s" & replacing it from another part in the song.
I definitely agree about the U47Fet & the Sony C37. I've sang arias into those 2 & they really sound great! Don't know anything about the AA mics.
We should definitely get together & compare mics & takes. I love the C800G on my vox, whether operatic or scatting improvs. I'd like to hear it on your vox. We can "A/B" it with the REDD & U67 & also with the great U89 & even the C414's. Ariel
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Post by Vincent R. on Sept 4, 2018 7:41:21 GMT -6
Vincent, thanks for all the info & videos you put out. BTW, in the REDD v. 87 you did which one did YOU personally like on yourself (which is what ultimately counts). I definitely liked the REDD on every segment over the U87! But then again I don't like the 87. The 67 is really nicer & smoother in the mids which I feel the 87 has an "artificial" aspect to it. Per the sibilance, yes it's source dependent but when the 67 doesn't handle it well I have to end up cutting out the "s" & replacing it from another part in the song. I definitely agree about the U47Fet & the Sony C37. I've sang arias into those 2 & they really sound great! Don't know anything about the AA mics. We should definitely get together & compare mics & takes. I love the C800G on my vox, whether operatic or scatting improvs. I'd like to hear it on your vox. We can "A/B" it with the REDD & U67 & also with the great U89 & even the C414's. Ariel aremos, where are you located? I always love meeting up with people, comparing notes, and trying new gear. Thanks for the compliment. I like to share my thoughts, but also provide a context with clips I have. I was not in love with the REDD mic, but I didn’t dislike it either. I had just had the FleA 49 in my studio a month before. It was hard, because that mic just sounded right in the styles I sing and my recording aesthetic, which is admittedly old school. In my video I probably would have used the REDD in the crooning piece over the U87ai. It just doesn’t sound right to sing that style of music with out a good, warm, tube microphone. The REDD has that larger than life sound I expect from the style. The operatic take is more tricky. I liked the REDD in low contour mode, but also liked the U87ai. Admittedly I “know the sound” of the U87ai in that style and it’s may just be something I’m used to. The REDD does this thing that the U47 does which is one of the reasons people love the U47, and also one of the reasons I feel it doesn’t work on my voice. It compresses the voice a bit, diminishing the dynamic range. The U87ai has this full dynamic range, so when I sing pianisimo, it’s pianisimo. When I sing fortissimo, it’s fortissimo. With the REDD it’s more like mezzo piano and forte respectively. At least that’s what I hear. Shortly after I made this video I went to CT and tried two additional versions of the FleA 49. The demo I had in my studio was a version with a K49. I went to Calistro Music and they had two versions with the M7; one with the stock tube and one with an AC701. I went with the K49, which I felt does a better job on my voice. I really debated the AC701, because I thought it really sounded close to the M49C I had used at the Barbershop Studios in NJ. I just really didn’t want the hassle of the vintage tube. I sometimes debate if that decision was right, but it’s done now. I think if I’m going to play the vintage tube game it will be after purchasing a real M49 down the road some day. You know, I’ve actually never tried the Sony C800G. Since I tend to lean toward warm vintage mics myself, like the U67 or M49, I always felt it might not be my thing. The U89 and TLM170 have been on my shortlist though. I did like a Korby 251 on my wife’s voice, and the AA CM251 and BLUE B0 on my voice. So a Bock 251 or custom build is on my list for when I’ve got a little cash. We’ll see.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2018 8:40:42 GMT -6
Vincent, thanks for all the info & videos you put out. BTW, in the REDD v. 87 you did which one did YOU personally like on yourself (which is what ultimately counts). I definitely liked the REDD on every segment over the U87! But then again I don't like the 87. The 67 is really nicer & smoother in the mids which I feel the 87 has an "artificial" aspect to it. Per the sibilance, yes it's source dependent but when the 67 doesn't handle it well I have to end up cutting out the "s" & replacing it from another part in the song. I definitely agree about the U47Fet & the Sony C37. I've sang arias into those 2 & they really sound great! Don't know anything about the AA mics. We should definitely get together & compare mics & takes. I love the C800G on my vox, whether operatic or scatting improvs. I'd like to hear it on your vox. We can "A/B" it with the REDD & U67 & also with the great U89 & even the C414's. Ariel The REDD does this thing that the U47 does which is one of the reasons people love the U47, and also one of the reasons I feel it doesn’t work on my voice. It compresses the voice a bit, diminishing the dynamic range. The U87ai has this full dynamic range, so when I sing pianisimo, it’s pianisimo. When I sing fortissimo, it’s fortissimo. With the REDD it’s more like mezzo piano and forte respectively. At least that’s what I hear. You know, I’ve actually never tried the Sony C800G. Since I tend to lean toward warm vintage mics myself, like the U67 or M49, I always felt it might not be my thing. The U89 and TLM170 have been on my shortlist though. I did like a Korby 251 on my wife’s voice, and the AA CM251 and BLUE B0 on my voice. So a Bock 251 or custom build is on my list for when I’ve got a little cash. We’ll see. The same issue I have with a fair few dynamic mic's, they suit the timbre of my voice but even though I'm a powerful singer dynamics and transients get washed out resulting in a rather "wimpy" sound. Which is odd, I'm nowhere near the level of an operatic singer that can carry their voice through a large stage (like an opera house) but crank a 5W amp through a 2X12 and you could clearly hear me over it.
Because of that I have issues with condensers as well, tight capsules or microphone distortion characteristics get extremely exascerbated when I'm less than three feet away from a mic. It's not about SPL it's about how the mic's react because with a U89I or U67 for example I can be about a foot away and it's fine..
Speaking of the U67, reason I loved that mic so much is because it was the first mic I owned that could kinda do the "dynamic mic" thing whilst retaining LDC style transients without being too dark like the U47. It was the perfect hybrid..!
251's and C12's are definatley hit or miss dependant on the song, the C800 is just a no go for me..
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Post by aremos on Sept 4, 2018 10:47:59 GMT -6
aremos , where are you located? Vincent, I'm in Miami Beach (South Florida area) but since we travel somewhat I do get to the NY area (which I believe is where you're at?) once in a while. Ariel
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Post by Vincent R. on Sept 5, 2018 15:21:57 GMT -6
aremos , where are you located? Vincent, I'm in Miami Beach (South Florida area) but since we travel somewhat I do get to the NY area (which I believe is where you're at?) once in a while. Ariel
Cool. Let me know if you’re going to be out this way. My performance schedule can get crazy at time, but if I’m free we’ll make something work.
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Post by popmann on Sept 5, 2018 17:11:18 GMT -6
I've had about 8 here (some as individuals, some as "matched pairs")....about 1 would stand up to a 87i.
Actually--Klaus maintained for years that it was the amp changes to the AI--that once he'd had his way with one, they'd sound just like the 87i. YMMV.
So...yes, in my case, it's experience based....and as a singer who relied on rentals for YEARS....
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Post by chessparov on Sept 6, 2018 12:17:31 GMT -6
How do you guys rate the Brauner Phanthera generally, compared to these other vocal microphones? I just stumbled across the Brauner company "examples", and a beautiful recording (different website) where the Phanthera was used for the female vocal. I really like the LDC that sounds tube-like/larger than life", ala my U195 on FAT mode. Am kind of surprised the Brauner's aren't brought up more. As you may know, there were two different tubes used in this model, over the years. Supposedly, the 2nd version sounds a bit more "modern". I have only heard the Phanthera, with the newer tube, in these audio clips.
Thoughts?...
Chris
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Post by aremos on Sept 6, 2018 16:25:43 GMT -6
Brauners, for the past 20 years, have been at the top of every high-end microphone list. Dirk has made beautiful sounding mics since the first VM-1. He used capsules made for him by Haun (MBHO), in the tradition of K67's. He is now building his own capsules & I am not familiar with them. I've used them all (VM-1, Valvet, Phantera, VMX, VMA) & it'd be hard to beat them! Some people claim they have too much "high end" but that's something subjective.
His collaboration with Klaus Heyne (VM-1 KH Edition) is a very well respected mic that goes way over $10K in street value.
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Post by cdkelly on Sept 8, 2018 23:20:13 GMT -6
Brauners, for the past 20 years, have been at the top of every high-end microphone list. Dirk has made beautiful sounding mics since the first VM-1. He used capsules made for him by Haun (MBHO), in the tradition of K67's. He is now building his own capsules & I am not familiar with them. I've used them all (VM-1, Valvet, Phantera, VMX, VMA) & it'd be hard to beat them! Some people claim they have too much "high end" but that's something subjective.
His collaboration with Klaus Heyne (VM-1 KH Edition) is a very well respected mic that goes way over $10K in street value.
I love the Brauner line, and Dirk is a really cool guy to talk to on top of that. VM1 is amazing, Phanthera is amazing (have used it to cut lead vocals on several records), and I'm actually a huge fan of the Phantom C, and the other iterations of the Phantom, which is his most entry level mic but it's simply a beautiful sounding mic. Perhaps not as complex in the overtones as the more tube driven and over-wrought designs; but many times you may not need that, or can add it later. I've said for years that I feel those mics 'have a soul' and help print some really perfect moments to tape or HD that withstand the test of time, which you can't say for many other mics out there that work but which simply 'do their job'. There's a hard to pin down attribute to mics where you can tell that something is handcrafted vs mass produced and utilitarian. Both work well, but there's something, and I suspect it mostly lies in the art of handcrafted capsules vs. mass produced, that has this sort of larger-than-life sense and striking realism that you won't get from the more mass production side of things. I was tagged in the post, I assume by a friend who has some of the mics I've hand built. I more or less stick to the Neumann line and make reproductions of the 47, FET47, 251, C12, M49revB, M269, U67, original 87, and a few others. If someone is looking for one of those for a price that's within reach, let me know.
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