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Post by Ward on Aug 20, 2018 22:14:59 GMT -6
If I were only allowed two microphones on meager means and had that tough choice to make, it would be a U87 and a KM84. Neither a holy grail, but each always usable and really good sounding in every single aspect and application. Agreed. Check out these interesting recordings of various vintage preamps with a KM84 on guitar and a U87 on vocals. Tom Gruning is a great tech. www.gruningaudioworks.com/audio-samples/That RCA though!
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Post by yotonic on Aug 20, 2018 22:23:36 GMT -6
I know that RCA is ridiculous. I bought the Telefunken V672 from him, it sounds awesome with an 87 & 84.
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Post by chessparov on Aug 20, 2018 22:34:00 GMT -6
Thanks guys. Am happy to be a Junior member, of the Real Gear Wolf Pack.
If I HAD to spend between 4K and around 5K on one mic on me... My "wow" shortlist includes Bock 67/AEA 44/Flea 12/Neumann 47 FET/REDD/Soyuz SU-017.
Really "need" 50K+ to get all the major mic food groups!
Chris P.S. Really impressed with Tonelux JC-37 too but not sure when it will be available.
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Post by rowmat on Aug 20, 2018 23:01:39 GMT -6
I have no doubt the Coles would work but I ran with the Neumann U77 into a Mercury M72s which rounded it out nicely. The Coles will likely get a look in during vocal overdubs. The Coles needs some distance for vox (18 inches or so) and with its ability to suck in low end it can be somewhat problematic for vox while tracking drums and bass unless you have industrial strength isolation. Coles while very, very special is a mic that just is not going to wow me on enough voices, that’s why would either go all out or UM70 or vintage U87 or 77, even if it doesn’t go wow it’s still not going to make me ever doubt my choice. I never considered the Coles as a vocal mic contender until recently. It's not what I would call particularly dark unless you mic too close and then of course it does get thick and bloated. It's flat to 15khz and actually very detailed due to its very thin ribbon. Get enough distance in a good space to flatten out the proximity, crank the preamp gain and add some EMT 140 plate and it is really pretty awesome and avoids the common condenser presence peak while not losing any detail. However I wouldn't necessarily considered it as a flagship vocal mic but as an addition to a good existing LDC.
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Post by Ward on Aug 21, 2018 6:10:32 GMT -6
I know that RCA is ridiculous. I bought the Telefunken V672 from him, it sounds awesome with an 87 & 84. Yotonic or Someone else, please let me know where I can find an RCA like that!!
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Post by aremos on Aug 21, 2018 7:09:24 GMT -6
I never considered the Coles as a vocal mic contender until recently. It's not what I would call particularly dark unless you mic too close and then of course it does get thick and bloated. It's flat to 15khz and actually very detailed due to its very thin ribbon. Get enough distance in a good space to flatten out the proximity, crank the preamp gain and add some EMT 140 plate and it is really pretty awesome and avoids the common condenser presence peak while not losing any detail. However I wouldn't necessarily considered it as a flagship vocal mic but as an addition to a good existing LDC. Aug 21, 2018 8:10:32 GMT -4 ward said: Yotonic or Someone else, please let me know where I can find an RCA like that!! ________________________________________________________________
How about the AEA 44 ?
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Post by Ward on Aug 21, 2018 7:37:46 GMT -6
I never considered the Coles as a vocal mic contender until recently. It's not what I would call particularly dark unless you mic too close and then of course it does get thick and bloated. It's flat to 15khz and actually very detailed due to its very thin ribbon. Get enough distance in a good space to flatten out the proximity, crank the preamp gain and add some EMT 140 plate and it is really pretty awesome and avoids the common condenser presence peak while not losing any detail. However I wouldn't necessarily considered it as a flagship vocal mic but as an addition to a good existing LDC. Aug 21, 2018 8:10:32 GMT -4 ward said: Yotonic or Someone else, please let me know where I can find an RCA like that!! ________________________________________________________________ How about the AEA 44 ?
Reference to the RCA Microphone preamp. I already have both a 1942 RCA 44 and a newish AEA in microphones
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Post by Ward on Aug 21, 2018 8:10:04 GMT -6
I know that RCA is ridiculous. I bought the Telefunken V672 from him, it sounds awesome with an 87 & 84. Yeah, well looks like just about everything I want is sold!! Those RCAs. Holy shitballs... I am seriously deeply in like.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,918
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Post by ericn on Aug 21, 2018 9:24:20 GMT -6
I know that RCA is ridiculous. I bought the Telefunken V672 from him, it sounds awesome with an 87 & 84. Yeah, well looks like just about everything I want is sold!! Those RCAs. Holy shitballs... I am seriously deeply in like. Yeah I completely understand. I have this completely emotionally filled lust for a 77, I keep looking and someday will just bite on one because it’s just such a classic look and sound.
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Post by Ward on Aug 21, 2018 10:37:08 GMT -6
Well, ericn luckily I was able to reach Tom Gruning, thanks to yotonic! So, I will definitely be buying an RCA preamp or pair off him in the near future. I mean, I just heard a preamp that makes such an astonishing difference to a microphone's sound that I am flabbergasted. With a preamp? That's never quite happened before. Bigger difference than even Johnkenn's old Helios
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Post by yotonic on Aug 21, 2018 10:41:41 GMT -6
Doug Williams who is a member here from Electromagnetic is an expert on this RCA stuff, and basically anything in that old American broadcast vein. I personally stick with the vintage broadcast gear Telefunken, Teletronix, Neumann, RCA, etc. They seem to do it better than anyone else.
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Post by Vincent R. on Aug 22, 2018 18:10:57 GMT -6
Coles while very, very special is a mic that just is not going to wow me on enough voices, that’s why would either go all out or UM70 or vintage U87 or 77, even if it doesn’t go wow it’s still not going to make me ever doubt my choice. I never considered the Coles as a vocal mic contender until recently. I had a Coles 4038 up next to an RCA 44 and honestly I prefered it to the 44 on my voice.
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Post by Vincent R. on Aug 22, 2018 18:31:35 GMT -6
I do not mean this as a criticism of anyone, but is the “hit or miss” thing (that’s become sort of Forum Lore) based on actual user experience or just on the allegations of sacrosanct commentators like Klaus Heyne? Again. Not throwing stones, just curious. Could you not expand this to a lot of mic's though? Singing live for e.g. you kinda get what you're given, I've never heard a proper singer struggle to the point of no return with a wide variety of mic's.. It's kinda like Vincent on this forum, I must of watched every vid he has and not once have I said yeah that mic sucks on his voice (they all sound good?)..
Thanks for watching and the kind words. Honestly, in my search for “my mic” I found so much had to do with my expectation for the vibe or feel of a piece. Once you get to a certain price point the mics all are generally usable. What changes is how you want the song to feel. I knock my U87ai, but I made my first album with it and it sounds great. In fact, I have a project that it will most likely be the main vocal mic on. I start recording in a week or two. That said, I still prefer my FleA 49 in most circumstances on my voice in the styles I specialize in. There are a few styles and circumstances where the U87ai is a better choice, usually due to a busy mix or a pop/rock style. Heck, I’m planning a new YouTube video featuring my BLUE Bottle Rocket Stage II with the B0 Cap, which is more like a 251, because it’s right for the song and I know the original was done with a 251, so it gets me closer to that sound. In fact, even though I’ve been chasing a 67 style mic for a while, I don’t particularly love it on my voice. I’ve loved it on a lot of other voices I’ve used my various 67 style mics on, but not really mine.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 22, 2018 20:50:43 GMT -6
If I HAD to spend between 4K and around 5K on one mic on me... My "wow" shortlist includes Bock 67/AEA 44/Flea 12/Neumann 47 FET/REDD/Soyuz SU-017. Really "need" 50K+ to get all the major mic food groups! Chris The 47 FET is not what you want if we're talking about a flagship mic. Every mic I've tried, including the sizzly Chinese capsule type sounded better for vocals that both the vintage U47FET's I borrowed from a friend to try. It's just not The One, believe me. Of course there are a few examples otherwise, but mainly, look elsewhere. The Bock mics are always high quality, the SU-017 is fantastic. You should add the Chandler REDD to that list, it's a monster.
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Post by ragan on Aug 22, 2018 21:37:27 GMT -6
If I HAD to spend between 4K and around 5K on one mic on me... My "wow" shortlist includes Bock 67/AEA 44/Flea 12/Neumann 47 FET/REDD/Soyuz SU-017. Really "need" 50K+ to get all the major mic food groups! Chris The 47 FET is not what you want if we're talking about a flagship mic. Every mic I've tried, including the sizzly Chinese capsule type sounded better for vocals that both the vintage U47FET's I borrowed from a friend to try. It's just not The One, believe me. Of course there are a few examples otherwise, but mainly, look elsewhere. The Bock mics are always high quality, the SU-017 is fantastic. You should add the Chandler REDD to that list, it's a monster. He’s already got the REDD in there.
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Post by chessparov on Aug 22, 2018 22:15:36 GMT -6
Thanks guys! MJB I totally can understand how the 47 FET isn't "The One" for most singers. It did however, sound exceptional on me when I've tried it (reissue) several times. After that, I "knew" (IMHO) it was one of the best for me. So I was very happy to find, that I loved the Bock iFET at least as much! If and when "I enter" that price range, most likely there'd be a "final showdown" vs. the TLM 67 (also an excellent fit)
BTW Klaus did manage to convince me, via his writings/posts, that it's best to be selective now when trying out Neumann LDC's.
I also agree with Bob Ohlsson's saying in the past, that the Beyer M88 can sound like an expensive Neumann on some voices, in the Su-Su-Studio! (paging Phil Collins). Chris
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Post by stormymondays on Aug 23, 2018 3:41:19 GMT -6
1. Are you looking to have one very recognizable microphone for clients to see and be impressed by that of course sounds great, or just one very versatile microphone that sounds great on a lot of sources?
2. What is your aesthetic as a producer/engineer?
#2 is probably the most important question to ask yourself. If you like things more on the vibey vintage side, then look at the FleA 47, FleA 49, or some incarnation of the U67 (Reissue, Stam, Bock). The U87ai and the Chandler REDD both have an in between modern/vintage sounds. The REDD in low contour is a bit like a beefy 251, while in normal mode its a bit like a U47 with more air in the top. The U87 has a more modern sound, but remains a bit more neutral. Reading your posts it sounds like you really like the U67 sound. You even have a couple of 67ish mics. If I were you I'd find your U67. Get the Reissue if you want a great vocal mic and a show piece. If you just want a great sound, Bock has one coming out for $1000 cheaper than the reissue, Stam's should be out to more people in the fall including you hopefully, or you could even reach out the Shannon to custom build something for you. There are options. Assuming you go all out on a U67 you still have a couple of 67ish mics you could sell to get some other sonic options.
-The U87i and U87ai are subtly different. We all know that that subtlety can be a huge thing on the wrong voice. I personally prefer the U87i except on voice over where I think the AI really shines. Either is a very nice workhorse, but it leans toward the brighter more modern side of things. I recorded my first album with one and my wife's voice loves a U87. In my own studio I have preferred the U87 on pop or RnB vocals and acoustic guitar. -The Chandler is cool, because it's NEW. Its a new sound creeping up in a lot of studios. That could be an edge as a show piece. It also has two modes making it very versatile. -The U67 is a favorite of mine and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't biased. I've been chasing that mic for a while now. I found the MK67 a bit on the dark side, Advanced Audio CM67LE w/vintage mod was nice for the price, but lacked a little bit of detail and bottom end, as budget mics do. These days I'm using a BLUE B11 cap with my Bottle Rocket Stage II. I'm recording a concept album for a new musical with it as my main vocal mic. It sounds awesome.
In my own studio these days I put out my FleA 49, U87ai, and Bottle Rocket II with either the B11 or B7 caps (I have the B6 & B0 too, but my aesthetic is more warm & vintage). Those are my go to mics at the start of a project. Personally, I like the Blue System, which I know gets a mixed reviews around here, more than my U87ai. The B7 is never going to beat out a good U47 clone and the same goes for the B11 and U67, etc, but as an extra mic to have around it's pretty cool. If you want to impress and are interested in the BLUE system, the big Bottle is a huge and cool looking mic, and the B6, B7, and B11 caps cover a lot of bases. I will also say if the M49 or U47 are what you are leaning toward, FleA mics are incredible. Whenever I had rock guys in my studio I used to reach for my Peluso 2247 SE. jtc111 's FleA 47 just rocked my mind when I first heard it. It's what really aimed me at their 49 which I love on a lot of sources. Again, thanks a lot for the time put into the reply! The answers are: 1. I'm "looking to have one very recognizable microphone for clients to see and be impressed by that of course sounds great". That's a very good definition. And I need to be impressed myself, since I'm the biggest client! 2. My aesthetic as a producer/engineer is more on the vibey vintage side. If I want to impress other clients, I think nothing but a Neumann would do. Maybe that vintage U87 is not a bad idea after all...
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Post by aremos on Aug 23, 2018 7:26:44 GMT -6
... I think nothing but a Neumann would do. Maybe that vintage U87 is not a bad idea after all... If it HAS to be Neumann why haven't I heard anyone mention U89, TLM170? Those are just about the best (still) being made.
And of course the U67 reissue sounds great!
Have to agree with Chessparov that the U47Fet is excellent on a lot of vox. Can't imagine ANY Chinese mic surpassing it.
The REDD is definitely a contender. But if you want to really go all the way, may I suggest the Sony C-800G?
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Post by chessparov on Aug 23, 2018 15:25:20 GMT -6
Stormy, sounds like for "Leading Lady" in your studio, a Neumann U87 is the ticket... Unless "Frankly" , you want to go "All The Way" (within Neumann), and get a tube U47. I absolutely agree with MJB, in that you'd HAVE to try out the FET version, to hear if it's right for you. For some "Crazy Cousin Character"-compared to the U47, with some chump change... I suggest the Oktava 219/319. I've got an exceptional (unmodded!) 219. This 219 comes extremely close to whatever Johnny Rivers (a vocal model for me BTW) was using in his mid/late 60's classic studio hits. Fantastic for Deep Soul style vocals too, got some "Dirt of the Volga"-ahem Delta Soul-in it! Chris
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Post by Vincent R. on Aug 24, 2018 5:48:17 GMT -6
Again, thanks a lot for the time put into the reply! The answers are: 1. I'm "looking to have one very recognizable microphone for clients to see and be impressed by that of course sounds great". That's a very good definition. And I need to be impressed myself, since I'm the biggest client! 2. My aesthetic as a producer/engineer is more on the vibey vintage side. If I want to impress other clients, I think nothing but a Neumann would do. Maybe that vintage U87 is not a bad idea after all... Sounds like you made the big decision. I recommend getting one in the studio or at least going somewhere local to try one out first and make sure you like it and it works for you. Its a cleaner sound than 67ish mics. Then if you do decide to go all the way and grab a vintage U87, make sure you read all the fine print if you buy off Reverb or eBay etc and go in with the understanding that it may need to go to someone like Shannon for a check up, or prepare to go through a dealer like VK and know you're going to spend a little more, but that it's been properly tested and/or repaired already. Please let us know what you do and post some pics and clips of your baby when it comes!
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ericn
Temp
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Post by ericn on Aug 24, 2018 7:51:46 GMT -6
... I think nothing but a Neumann would do. Maybe that vintage U87 is not a bad idea after all... If it HAS to be Neumann why haven't I heard anyone mention U89, TLM170? Those are just about the best (still) being made.
And of course the U67 reissue sounds great!
Have to agree with Chessparov that the U47Fet is excellent on a lot of vox. Can't imagine ANY Chinese mic surpassing it.
The REDD is definitely a contender. But if you want to really go all the way, may I suggest the Sony C-800G?
TLM 170 is probably the best current Neumann, but not the best for getting the best vocal sound every time, that Honor goes to the 87 with 67 as honorable mention because of price. Huge Sony fan but the C800/G is wonderful when it works but an 87 is a far better mic when it isn’t the right mic, and that’s why they are the standard! Personally Though for the cost of a New Ai or a vintage 87, I would grab a used UM70 and a used C38fet or C48. That’s me thought.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 24, 2018 8:25:46 GMT -6
Just get $2,200 together and buy a great condition U87. It fits into all your considerations. Sure it's exciting to look for a better deal on some other mic, the TLM 67 is an excellent choice, and you can upgrade it later, some studios like the TLM 103 after they EQ it, so you could get a Neumann for less than a grand if you want to, but the 87 is simply the one of the best and most versatile mics ever made. No one will question your choice either.
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Post by stormymondays on Aug 24, 2018 9:12:38 GMT -6
My doubt now is between the vintage 87 (serviced) or save up for the 67 reissue which is almost twice as much. If the vintage one sells before I make my mind up, then someone will make the decision for me!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 24, 2018 9:39:05 GMT -6
My doubt now is between the vintage 87 (serviced) or save up for the 67 reissue which is almost twice as much. If the vintage one sells before I make my mind up, then someone will make the decision for me! Funny how often other people’s lust and full wallet make those choices for you😁
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Post by Vincent R. on Aug 24, 2018 10:35:12 GMT -6
My doubt now is between the vintage 87 (serviced) or save up for the 67 reissue which is almost twice as much. If the vintage one sells before I make my mind up, then someone will make the decision for me! If you decide to go for the U87 I would also look for a nice tube preamp, if you don’t already have one. I use a Demeter VTMP-2B with my U87 and love the sound I get from that combo. On my first album I used a U87ai through a Summit MPC100. Of course there are also those who swear by the Avalon 737/U87ai combo. The tube preamps mellow the U87 out a bit more. It’s not U67 mellow, but it’s a nice effect. I have also used my Tab Funkenwerk V78M with the U87ai to great effect on my voice. Didn’t work as well on a few female voices I tried the combo on though. I will also admit that I wasn’t a giant fan of the U87ai through the UA610 when I owned one. It seemed to get beefy and sibalant at the same time.
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