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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 30, 2018 12:02:46 GMT -6
I don't buy the disappear for a six month Les Paul Memorial Overdub Party method but a couple weeks work really well. Andrew Oldham told me they recorded the Stones' first three albums in a week!
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Post by M57 on Jun 30, 2018 12:32:45 GMT -6
I don't buy the disappear for a six month Les Paul Memorial Overdub Party method but a couple weeks work really well. Andrew Oldham told me they recorded the Stones' first three albums in a week! It's a different paradigm for creation. I guess my point is that good musicians should be able to do it both ways ..or at least one way ;P |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 30, 2018 13:22:11 GMT -6
Again my experience has been that even the best musicians give better performances in ensembles. Better performances should be the goal.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2018 16:24:43 GMT -6
This, of course, assumes a certain level of competence. Well now there's your problem Mrs. Jones.... |
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Post by christopher on Jun 30, 2018 20:05:02 GMT -6
The real problem is there’s basically a normal fixed amount of dollars for studio recording based on local GDP. I forget the formula I read but for Houston (where I live) it came out to about a million dollars in available annual revenue. Divide that by the studios and... there’s just not enough to go around. But, with such a small barrier to entry there is not much to keep that pie from being sliced up a thousand ways. This is the real issue. That's why I changed my model a little (back when I worked in a studio). Every musician needs practice, months of it, and practicing in a studio is pretty luxurious. They love it. Plus I'm a live sound guy so I can dial in the PA for them. Bands don't blink at blowing thousands a year on a rehearsal space.. but a recording? That's way too expensive |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2018 13:55:10 GMT -6
This is the real issue. That's why I changed my model a little (back when I worked in a studio). Every musician needs practice, months of it, and practicing in a studio is pretty luxurious. They love it. Plus I'm a live sound guy so I can dial in the PA for them. Bands don't blink at blowing thousands a year on a rehearsal space.. but a recording? That's way too expensive That's an interesting notion. Do you hang mics while they're rehearsing? Given how cheap disk space is, it seems like there's a possibility of upselling them to a demo mix if they've had a good session. Rough mic positioning, 8-16 tracks, delete after 30 days.... |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jul 1, 2018 14:54:19 GMT -6
I think a band should record and study every rehearsal and every show.
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Post by wiz on Jul 2, 2018 2:29:09 GMT -6
I think a band should record and study every rehearsal and every show. Did this for the better part of a decade....listening in the car next day on the way to the next show... Cheers Wiz |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jul 2, 2018 7:37:40 GMT -6
Motown shot videos of most shows to study.
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Post by swurveman on Jul 3, 2018 10:03:17 GMT -6
^^^This^^^ It's not a perfect analogy, but I work at an independent 'private' PK-8 school in a district where the public schools are very good, and our tuition is not cheap. Yes, you have to have 'value', that's a given, but from an admissions and development perspective, it's ALL about building community and relationships. It's different for recording, since it's not required for life.. I'd also bet that it's really easy to recruit because people who can afford private schools are likely already looking for one.. Whereas the recording world, people aren't looking for studios, they're looking to record. There's a difference. They don't see a benefit to spending thousands of dollars at a studio to get a better record when they can spend half that on themselves and get a marginal record and some gear. Recording is a means to get their work out there, and the medium in which they'll become famous. A means to an end. Besides, both of the bands were bands I've recorded before and have always been happy with my work. It's just that there's no loyalty in today's world and it's easy to sway artists, who are wanting fame more than anything, with a few promises and a little clout. True Story: There's a couple from my home town consisting of a husband and wife duo act. They toured the entire country a couple of times playing coffee houses, sleeping in their car, or in their fans homes. They recorded and sold CD's, but then as Spotify, Youtube and other free digital delivery picked up steam they stopped being able to sell CD's. They don't even sell CD's anymore. So, they bought a used Soundelux 151, a DAW and (I believe) a Kemper. They sent a song of theirs to Matt Wiggins , who mixed it for free. Presumably due to Wiggins' relationship with Paul Epworth, the duo just had a meeting with Universal Music Group. And still....they could break big or go nowhere. And who knows what kind of deal they'll be able to get and how much Wiggins/Epworth/UMG want. It is easy today to create an image of success, when there is no financial success there. They look successful, but as of now they have very little money after 10 years of work. Do I blame them for not having any loyalty to any of the studios that they recorded in? No. Why should I? They busted their ass for 10 years touring and playing. They did what they needed to do. We have a business model where the customers have no money and a bazillion ways to record in a spiraling downward cost structure. Meanwhile, we have a visually oriented culture with a bazillion outlets and cheap ways to make videos . It has never been easier to look successful and cool and have no money. The internet is a haven for those who want to play that game, and there are a bazillion bands playing it who work all day in their factory/ barista/ sales counter/ job up to their necks in debt and looking for their big break. It's always been a suckers game of dreamers, but might be more than ever today with the internet lure. At least they can look like they're cool and are going to make it during the ride. Do I feel your pain? Damn right I do. It sucks for most recording studios who want to make a living doing it full time. |
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Post by svart on Jul 3, 2018 11:09:23 GMT -6
Do I blame them for not having any loyalty to any of the studios that they recorded in? No. Why should I? I understand your point of view. Here's mine.. I get TONS of invites to shows for bands. Some are house shows, some are venues, some are free, some are 10-20$ a person, some have 20 bands playing that night, some have 1, some are close to me, some are hours away.. All of those bands want people to come to their shows and become loyal followers who buy merch and CDs/records/MP3s/etc.. I spend time trying to develop a relationship with some bands. I enjoy their shows, talk with them, find out their desires for their band and recordings and sometimes that leads to offering them reduced studio prices which can be damn near "free" sometimes.. but none of this is "free" to me. It's all time and energy I expend. Sometimes it's a few minutes, sometimes it's hours or days of work preparing and discussing everything.. But when it comes time to reciprocate the time and work it took to get to the point of recording, they just don't. They come to expect you to come to their show, but they don't see it the same way after promising to come to your studio. To them, their show and band is art and life while your studio is just money and business. Or even when you record an artist multiple times and they make plans to be back, but you read about their new studio work on FB without them even cancelling their plans with you.. That's the lack of loyalty I'm talking about. They want your patronage, but they won't give you theirs in return. |
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Post by winetree on Jul 3, 2018 11:43:08 GMT -6
I owned a commercial studio in the 1980's.
At that time, other than a home reel to reel, if you wanted a professional recording, you had to go to a recording studio.
Yea we had our rants, too, but when it's come down to multi track recording on your iPhone, I feel your pain.
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Post by swurveman on Jul 3, 2018 11:54:59 GMT -6
Do I blame them for not having any loyalty to any of the studios that they recorded in? No. Why should I? I understand your point of view. Here's mine.. I get TONS of invites to shows for bands. Some are house shows, some are venues, some are free, some are 10-20$ a person, some have 20 bands playing that night, some have 1, some are close to me, some are hours away.. All of those bands want people to come to their shows and become loyal followers who buy merch and CDs/records/MP3s/etc.. I spend time trying to develop a relationship with some bands. I enjoy their shows, talk with them, find out their desires for their band and recordings and sometimes that leads to offering them reduced studio prices which can be damn near "free" sometimes.. but none of this is "free" to me. It's all time and energy I expend. Sometimes it's a few minutes, sometimes it's hours or days of work preparing and discussing everything.. But when it comes time to reciprocate the time and work it took to get to the point of recording, they just don't. They come to expect you to come to their show, but they don't see it the same way after promising to come to your studio. To them, their show and band is art and life while your studio is just money and business. Or even when you record an artist multiple times and they make plans to be back, but you read about their new studio work on FB without them even cancelling their plans with you.. That's the lack of loyalty I'm talking about. They want your patronage, but they won't give you theirs in return. I'd accept that illusion is a stronger marketing strategy than loyalty. If you want my advice- since face to face marketing isn't working- try spending your time and energy creating an image of your studio on Facebook, YouTube, Vimeo etc. as the coolest place to be for the coolest - soon to be world shattering- bands and artists who you are helping with their big, breakthrough album. Spend time liking their shows and telling people-from your personal Facebook page- how awesome they are, but fuck spending 2-3 hours of your time doing the face to face if it's not paying off. The screen is where these people have their eyes. Work the screen. |
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Post by svart on Jul 3, 2018 12:09:51 GMT -6
I understand your point of view. Here's mine.. I get TONS of invites to shows for bands. Some are house shows, some are venues, some are free, some are 10-20$ a person, some have 20 bands playing that night, some have 1, some are close to me, some are hours away.. All of those bands want people to come to their shows and become loyal followers who buy merch and CDs/records/MP3s/etc.. I spend time trying to develop a relationship with some bands. I enjoy their shows, talk with them, find out their desires for their band and recordings and sometimes that leads to offering them reduced studio prices which can be damn near "free" sometimes.. but none of this is "free" to me. It's all time and energy I expend. Sometimes it's a few minutes, sometimes it's hours or days of work preparing and discussing everything.. But when it comes time to reciprocate the time and work it took to get to the point of recording, they just don't. They come to expect you to come to their show, but they don't see it the same way after promising to come to your studio. To them, their show and band is art and life while your studio is just money and business. Or even when you record an artist multiple times and they make plans to be back, but you read about their new studio work on FB without them even cancelling their plans with you.. That's the lack of loyalty I'm talking about. They want your patronage, but they won't give you theirs in return. I'd accept that illusion is a stronger marketing strategy than loyalty. If you want my advice- since face to face marketing isn't working- try spending your time and energy creating an image of your studio on Facebook, YouTube, Vimeo etc. as the coolest place to be for the coolest - soon to be world shattering- bands and artists who you are helping with their big, breakthrough album. Spend time liking their shows and telling people-from your personal Facebook page- how awesome they are, but fuck spending 2-3 hours of your time doing the face to face if it's not paying off. The screen is where these people have their eyes. Work the screen. I think I've come to the same conclusion as well. It used to be going to shows was the thing, but then as the artists changed, it became a "bother" to them to try to discuss these things at "their" shows.. But then it was word-of-mouth that was huge for a while and i got tons of business from friends of friends, but now even that doesn't seem to be working anymore. I've been eyeing the FB ads thing, but it seems overly convoluted since they're trying to get you to pay more to cast a wider net so they don't seem to have good selection ability for your directed marketing. I still might throw some money at it and see what happens, but in all honesty I feel like I'm going to get more folks contacting me for soliciting their wares than customers looking to use my services. |
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Post by swurveman on Jul 3, 2018 12:20:30 GMT -6
I'd accept that illusion is a stronger marketing strategy than loyalty. If you want my advice- since face to face marketing isn't working- try spending your time and energy creating an image of your studio on Facebook, YouTube, Vimeo etc. as the coolest place to be for the coolest - soon to be world shattering- bands and artists who you are helping with their big, breakthrough album. Spend time liking their shows and telling people-from your personal Facebook page- how awesome they are, but fuck spending 2-3 hours of your time doing the face to face if it's not paying off. The screen is where these people have their eyes. Work the screen. I think I've come to the same conclusion as well. It used to be going to shows was the thing, but then as the artists changed, it became a "bother" to them to try to discuss these things at "their" shows.. But then it was word-of-mouth that was huge for a while and i got tons of business from friends of friends, but now even that doesn't seem to be working anymore. I've been eyeing the FB ads thing, but it seems overly convoluted since they're trying to get you to pay more to cast a wider net so they don't seem to have good selection ability for your directed marketing. I still might throw some money at it and see what happens, but in all honesty I feel like I'm going to get more folks contacting me for soliciting their wares than customers looking to use my services. I just gave the leader of the biggest band in my area a finder's fee for bringing in bands. He's out there at local and regional shows. So, he's going to be selling for me at the shows. He's gotta be there for hours anyway. So, it made sense for both of us. |
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Post by svart on Jul 3, 2018 12:24:51 GMT -6
I think I've come to the same conclusion as well. It used to be going to shows was the thing, but then as the artists changed, it became a "bother" to them to try to discuss these things at "their" shows.. But then it was word-of-mouth that was huge for a while and i got tons of business from friends of friends, but now even that doesn't seem to be working anymore. I've been eyeing the FB ads thing, but it seems overly convoluted since they're trying to get you to pay more to cast a wider net so they don't seem to have good selection ability for your directed marketing. I still might throw some money at it and see what happens, but in all honesty I feel like I'm going to get more folks contacting me for soliciting their wares than customers looking to use my services. I just gave the leader of the biggest band in my area a finder's fee for bringing in bands. He's out there at local and regional shows. So, he's going to be selling for me at the shows. He's gotta be there for hours anyway. So, it made sense for both of us. I have an ongoing offer to a few bands that if they can forward me other bands I'll apply huge discounts to future recording. If a band brings in two other bands that pay, I'll record the one who found the other bands for free.. They were all excited at the proposal, but I have yet to get any bands forwarded to me. |
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Post by swurveman on Jul 3, 2018 12:40:59 GMT -6
I just gave the leader of the biggest band in my area a finder's fee for bringing in bands. He's out there at local and regional shows. So, he's going to be selling for me at the shows. He's gotta be there for hours anyway. So, it made sense for both of us. I have an ongoing offer to a few bands that if they can forward me other bands I'll apply huge discounts to future recording. If a band brings in two other bands that pay, I'll record the one who found the other bands for free.. They were all excited at the proposal, but I have yet to get any bands forwarded to me. I'm going with the "Big Dog" theory, hoping that the younger bands who are local will listen to the one regional act who opens for national bands. We'll see. My general belief is the more the offer you give out, the more the value of the offer is diluted. |
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Post by EmRR on Jul 3, 2018 15:14:46 GMT -6
I can only add that those who wanted a finders fee to work as my agent generally failed to do much, and possibly did more damage casting too wide a net, talking to the wrong sorts of clients. As well, I never saw any advertising of any kind do anything of value, outside of word of mouth leading to me or my www. I took the equipment list off of my www because it generated a half dozen emails a month from other studios wanting to know if this or that was cool, should they get one, etc.
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Post by swurveman on Jul 3, 2018 16:23:48 GMT -6
I can only add that those who wanted a finders fee to work as my agent generally failed to do much, and possibly did more damage casting too wide a net, talking to the wrong sorts of clients. As well, I never saw any advertising of any kind do anything of value, outside of word of mouth leading to me or my www. I took the equipment list off of my www because it generated a half dozen emails a month from other studios wanting to know if this or that was cool, should they get one, etc. In fairness to him, it was my idea, not his. I was gonna shut my doors, sell my gear and head off to some beach. He told me he could bring in a lot of work. I told him I'd give him till September. We'll see. I have gotten contacted by three bands in the last week, which is much more than usual, but it's put up or shut up time. Meanwhile, I'm working the screen strategy and taking photos of all my gear. We'll see. |
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Post by christopher on Jul 6, 2018 20:08:21 GMT -6
This is the real issue. That's why I changed my model a little (back when I worked in a studio). Every musician needs practice, months of it, and practicing in a studio is pretty luxurious. They love it. Plus I'm a live sound guy so I can dial in the PA for them. Bands don't blink at blowing thousands a year on a rehearsal space.. but a recording? That's way too expensive That's an interesting notion. Do you hang mics while they're rehearsing? Given how cheap disk space is, it seems like there's a possibility of upselling them to a demo mix if they've had a good session. Rough mic positioning, 8-16 tracks, delete after 30 days.... This is exactly how I worked. Started out with a 4 mic setup, just for fun and learning. It grew from there into more mics and see how far I could go. I got to test all kinds of setups this way to help my skills. I'd hit record, leave and come back. The slots would usually be 3 hours long, so the projects were like a long reel of tape. But it was really easy to see where the songs were in the timeline. And the bad takes were easy to spot because they were short. I'd quick mix the first song, then select and bounce the rest without listening. Reaper has offline render so it's about 30 seconds to bounce a song. Then burn a disc for them and one for me to see how I did. This did get musicians into my space that I would never have met otherwise. For example the first rehearsal guy I found tried it out for a few months and then he brought Shuggie Otis for a rehearsal. I didn't think my space was ready for that kind of talent so I didn't try to reel him in. Looking back I realize that was a missed opportunity. It could have been something special if I was more ambitious. The upsides to this thing is you'll find musicians who want to be regulars. This can fill slots which is nice. And word of mouth will spread, more slots fill. The downside is eventually when artists want to record, you have to navigate scheduling around all these filled slots. And you'll be wondering like I was.. did I get into this to record or not? |
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Post by notneeson on Jul 7, 2018 11:37:47 GMT -6
This kind of work can really break your heart. One minute the band is leaving a couple days of tracking with huge grins on their faces, talking about coming back in to do more tunes because the sessions were essentially proof of concept— the Heider room is worth the (modest) extra bucks.
Then a few weeks later after dicking around with the tracks in their attic studio, they've convinced themselves that the vocals aren't good enough because "they weren't going for that broadcast mic sound."
Funny thing: I had used an SM7 for scratch vocals but then moved to an AEA for keepers. They were reacting to the track notes in PT, which I forgot to update for overdubs. It'd be funny if I didn't need the work!
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Post by Mister Chase on Jul 17, 2018 21:28:41 GMT -6
To me, the problem is Les Paul Memorial Overdub Parties where no studio is required as opposed to recording ensembles. The irony is that I've never heard anybody do an overdub that was as good as the same musician playing as part of an ensemble. This, of course, assumes a certain level of competence. Because you really don't want to be the guy in an ensemble who makes a mistake and ruins the take for everyone. So everyone is tip top for sure. I almost always, if not always, play better in an ensemble. Exceptions being where I am way out of my league. |
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Post by mhep on Jul 17, 2018 22:19:03 GMT -6
The only solution to avoid being poached is to require a large enough deposit in order to get them on the schedule that they won't be okay losing it. I typically ask for 50% for multiple scheduled days, or 100% of single block out days. I'll refund 50% if they cancel with 7+ day notice.
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Post by drbill on Jul 21, 2018 14:21:25 GMT -6
My $02 - devalued to $0.00025476 to account for streaming....
You can only sell what isn't available for free. At this point, recording "studio's" are available for free or next to free everywhere. You can try "selling" that you have specific pieces of gear, but most musicians don't know what it is anyway, and if they do, they probably know where to rent your "classic xyz mic" for $50-100 a day. So it's pretty difficult to sell "gear" too. Trying to sell your facility is a bust.
That only leaves two things to sell.
1. (primarily) you. Your experience. Your sound, Your credits. If you don't have this, you don't have anything.... NO ONE can be you except you. If people don't like or want YOU, well...sorry, but it's time to re-invent yourself. Smart businessmen do it all the time. Think different.
2. (secondarily) vibe. A cool hang. That means both the facility, AND the PERSONALITIES involved. I've paid premium to work with people I like and enjoy. Even when there are other options for free or next to free.
If you find yourself being shut down by the competition, one of three things is happening. The people poaching your gigs have : 1. a lower price than you. 2. More Experience, better sound, etc than you do. OR, 3. a cooler hang.
Those are the areas to look at if you're in need of more gigs. A cappuccino machine might be a much better investment than a new mic. A different way of dealing with clients might be a better area to place your efforts than absorption panels. Moving to an area that doesn't have 250 free bedroom studios might be in order.
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Post by ericn on Jul 21, 2018 14:31:33 GMT -6
To me, the problem is Les Paul Memorial Overdub Parties where no studio is required as opposed to recording ensembles. The irony is that I've never heard anybody do an overdub that was as good as the same musician playing as part of an ensemble. This, of course, assumes a certain level of competence. Bob I have mentioned it before, I’m in the car and a local rapper is all proud of the fact that his new album was all recorded in a hotel room! Well the X5 has a stock except for the ENON front end that looks stock and sounds stock, it’s a slow very colored system no real lowend but pretty damn consistent top to bottom, Well I’m shouting “ It sounds like you fucking recorded in a hotel room and that’s nothing to be bragging about!” But his producer brought a “really great mic” sounded like generic Chinese tube mic to me😥 |
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