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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 8, 2018 8:44:58 GMT -6
So Cirrus 5381. Same as Prism Orpheus.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 8, 2018 10:13:31 GMT -6
Is the DA?
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Post by indiehouse on Aug 8, 2018 10:19:20 GMT -6
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 8, 2018 10:40:32 GMT -6
Thx: What are the Cirrus part's doing ??
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Post by Guitar on Aug 8, 2018 11:03:38 GMT -6
Thx: What are the Cirrus part's doing ?? AD... (lol!)
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 8, 2018 11:44:57 GMT -6
Interesting combo and in the context of competitors’ boxes!
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Post by matt on Aug 8, 2018 13:31:44 GMT -6
This info reinforces my opinion of the 16A as a great value. At the risk of repeating myself, if I wasn't staying with my Symphony MK1 and AD/DA 16Xs for now, I'd own two of them for 32x32 I/O.
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Post by jeromemason on Aug 8, 2018 14:04:17 GMT -6
So it's using 4580's and NE5532's which are prime candidates for dropping in OPA16XX's
That alone would put these at another level and they're in good places for using the air gun too without too much risk of heating other component's. I would say you could also track down the coupling caps and remove them because of the much lower DC offset of the OPA16XX's but when it comes to converters the conversion chips don't like any DC, much different than a preamp etc.
The voltages need to be checked and such, but I'd say there is a 99% chance that you could just drop the new chips right in. Two different ones I'd consider, the OPA1612 if you're wanting extremely transparent and high detail, or the OPA1642 if you wanted it to be a little fatter. Both are excellent choices and you wouldn't go wrong with either, but I've noticed the 1642 has a little more of a fatter tone. The 1612 seemed much more flat and super detailed. I'm surprised they went ESS and Cirrus 5381's only to use 4580's and 5532's...... I'm sure when BLA does their mod that's the first thing they swap.
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Post by jeromemason on Aug 8, 2018 15:26:41 GMT -6
Something else that is interesting and that I'd really love to find out is that ESS states that the new ES9026PRO is a pin compatible direct upgrade to the ES9016. If that's true it seems like you could upgrade the DAC's as well. The only thing that makes me think no is that the new generation has the built in filters, distortion compensation and a few other features. I'm not sure if there are some dead pins on the 9016 that they use for these features on the 9026. If that's the case then it technically could be possible to drop the new generation chip in and go. I guess Motu would be the only ones to answer that one. In fact, I would bet that when they do another version of the 16a, instead of going up to the ES9038PRO they'll go to the ES9026PRO because they don't have to change the architecture of what is there now, and would only have to program in the distortion compensation and filters.
The Pro-ject S2's filters and distortion compensation don't do a whole lot IMO. I usually keep the dist comp off and keep the filter at brick wall. Anyways, If the 9026 would drop in along with dropping in the OPA16XX's, for a $100 or so you could juice your 16a up quite a bit. The 4580's and NE5532's have a plastic sound to my ears and are not very open. Remember that the 4580 is basically the same chip as the JRC4558 (the chips used in the Tubescreamers) only I believe it'll drive heavier loads. I imagine the reason they've used 4580's is because the 16a doesn't have dedicated HP outs, so they used the 4580's in case someone planned on using the box for a massive HP Dist. I surely can't think of anything my 16a drives that a OPA2134 or OPA1612 isn't more than capable of handling.
Also, on the DAC opamps, you could remove the coupling caps and bridge the pads. That's another mod to note.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 8, 2018 15:31:43 GMT -6
Something else that is interesting and that I'd really love to find out is that ESS states that the new ES9026PRO is a pin compatible direct upgrade to the ES9016. The only thing that makes me think no is that the new generation has the built in filters, distortion compensation and a few other features. I'm not sure if there are some dead pins on the 9016 that they use for these features on the 9026. If that's the case then it technically could be possible to drop the new generation chip in and go. I guess Motu would be the only ones to answer that one. I bet they can't even answer it, as the electronic design was probably a 3rd party contractor.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 8, 2018 15:41:56 GMT -6
I’ve got a line on one for $850. Should I pull the trigger? Surely I could get my money back if I decide not to go with it, right?
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Post by wiz on Aug 8, 2018 15:48:48 GMT -6
I’ve got a line on one for $850. Should I pull the trigger? Surely I could get my money back if I decide not to go with it, right? Cables, you got em? 16A is all TRS 1/4” cheers Wiz
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Post by jeromemason on Aug 8, 2018 17:35:33 GMT -6
I’ve got a line on one for $850. Should I pull the trigger? Surely I could get my money back if I decide not to go with it, right? That's an insane deal..... For the quality and I/O count how could you not? Unless you don't have the $$$, that's the ONLY reason I wouldn't grab that. Damn sure wish I had the spare cash, I'd grab that sucker and use it as R/D to mod. If anyone has a 16a that they don't depend on every day and can live without for a few days I'll do the mod if you cover all the parts and shipping etc. I'm considering modding 2 channels both in and out to see how it does...... The only problem is I can't be down for more than half a day. I truly believe this mod will take it beyond the Apogee Symphony MKII's.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 8, 2018 19:47:59 GMT -6
Well, I never have the money per se...but if I were to decide to keep it, I would make like $1200 and add 8 channels...BUT...I know me and if the Symphony DA is slightly better it’s gonna be hard for me to pull the trigger. Plus, the extra 8 channels would be for an eventual additional 8 channels of sumbus...and I don’t HAVE to have that. The $1200 extra would be nice...
Maybe status quo is good.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2018 21:10:03 GMT -6
Well, I never have the money per se...but if I were to decide to keep it, I would make like $1200 and add 8 channels...BUT...I know me and if the Symphony DA is slightly better it’s gonna be hard for me to pull the trigger. Plus, the extra 8 channels would be for an eventual additional 8 channels of sumbus...and I don’t HAVE to have that. The $1200 extra would be nice... Maybe status quo is good.
The Symphony MK2 DA is going to be better, there's no doubt about it.. The real question is how necessary is it? The subjective differences between a lot of converters ain't massive and as we discussed earlier it's not always about "technical efficiency", ala there's examples of a metric ton of people preferring the MRX816 even though specs wise it sucks compared to an MOTU 16A..
John you know I'm as fussy as the best of them, but a reality check is needed once in a while.. If you can't cut amazing tracks on the MOTU, it ain't the interfaces fault.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 8, 2018 21:28:20 GMT -6
I get it. I’m just leery of continuing my backwards slide of justification...it happens. “Do I really need this Kemper?” “Surely I don’t need a $2500 Sta-level to make good tracks” “I can live without this mic” “If I sell these Helios I can buy x”
I have to remember that sometimes those inches given up set you back yards. And just because it’s a good deal doesn’t mean i have to buy it.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Aug 8, 2018 21:52:22 GMT -6
I get it. I’m just leery of continuing my backwards slide of justification...it happens. “Do I really need this Kemper?” “Surely I don’t need a $2500 Sta-level to make good tracks” “I can live without this mic” “If I sell these Helios I can buy x” I have to remember that sometimes those inches given up set you back yards. And just because it’s a good deal doesn’t mean i have to buy it. I ask myself a series of questions every time I decide I want a piece of gear. Will this piece make my work at least 10% better? Will this piece justify me raising my price per mix? Will the wow factor help me get more clients? If they are all a yes, then I save up triple what it costs. 1 part buys the gear and the other 2 parts goes into savings.
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Post by the other mark williams on Aug 8, 2018 21:55:50 GMT -6
That is an impressive list, jeremygillespie! I didn't know #3 even happened anymore.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Aug 8, 2018 22:08:27 GMT -6
That is an impressive list, jeremygillespie! I didn't know #3 even happened anymore. It honestly just keeps me from spending on what I don’t actually need. I usually get 1 thing a year. I did my buying this year already so I try not to even entertain the idea of getting something unless it falls in my lap for next to nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2018 22:09:49 GMT -6
I get it. I’m just leery of continuing my backwards slide of justification...it happens. “Do I really need this Kemper?” “Surely I don’t need a $2500 Sta-level to make good tracks” “I can live without this mic” “If I sell these Helios I can buy x” I have to remember that sometimes those inches given up set you back yards. And just because it’s a good deal doesn’t mean i have to buy it. Jeez you sound like me, this was my recent train of thought:
“Do I really need this Kemper?” “Surely I don’t need a $3500 Shelford channel to make good tracks” “I can live without this U67” “If I sell this LA-2A I can buy x”
If there's an ounce of doubt don't do it, I recently bought those Shelford strips not because I couldn't get get good results with a 6176. They have been used on X records and in all fairness grammy's have been won with Yammie digital mixers.. Although I would start asking, is this right for me? What if I want to use a Ribbon, oh this review says X..!
With the Shelford's there is no doubt, they are one of the best you can buy and everything else is different not better. At some point you do kinda have to get out of the rat race or you are wizzing away a lot of money for no reason at all, at this point I'm fine with expanding my studio but I am tired of throwing money away (even if it's caused by my own insecurities)..
Do it right, do it once..
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Post by jeromemason on Aug 8, 2018 22:23:06 GMT -6
Well, I never have the money per se...but if I were to decide to keep it, I would make like $1200 and add 8 channels...BUT...I know me and if the Symphony DA is slightly better it’s gonna be hard for me to pull the trigger. Plus, the extra 8 channels would be for an eventual additional 8 channels of sumbus...and I don’t HAVE to have that. The $1200 extra would be nice... Maybe status quo is good.
The Symphony MK2 DA is going to be better, there's no doubt about it.. The real question is how necessary is it? The subjective differences between a lot of converters ain't massive and as we discussed earlier it's not always about "technical efficiency", ala there's examples of a metric ton of people preferring the MRX816 even though specs wise it sucks compared to an MOTU 16A..
John you know I'm as fussy as the best of them, but a reality check is needed once in a while.. If you can't cut amazing tracks on the MOTU, it ain't the interfaces fault.
I'm not in the camp of the Symphony's D/A being better..... I've heard both and I honestly believe the Motu is more extended on top. Apogee has always from memory tuned their converters to be a little softer/smoother sounding. Honestly the Motu and Symphony as so close in builds that some guys did a null test on the purple site and found they nulled out to something like -76db. You can do a search and find that thread over there. Now, that was the MKI not the MKII, but the D/A side of the MKII were not all that much different, mainly the A/D side was what Apogee made much better. If you look at the guts of the MKII and 16a two things are absolute; the MKII uses the AKM A/D chips (which are great, but so are the Cirrus chips used in the 16a, which both Prism and Cranesong HEDD192 uses) and the other is the MKII uses the OPA1632's as the diff amp into the A/D. The 16a is set up a little different, but changing over the opamps to the OPA1642's would likely keep the detail extension of the 16a but also give it a bit more of a warmer/softer overall tone. Swapping all the opamps I truly believe would put the 16a over the Symphony, but that's just my theory, whether this is true or not is probably about to be found out as I believe I've got someone willing to mod 2 channels to start. I believe this person also still has their MKII's as well, so we'll absolutely know for sure. The bigger picture here is that if you can get a 16a for $850 or ever $1k, it can be tuned and upgraded to go above Apogee and you're saving a pile of money for the I/O.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2018 23:14:56 GMT -6
The Symphony MK2 DA is going to be better, there's no doubt about it.. The real question is how necessary is it? The subjective differences between a lot of converters ain't massive and as we discussed earlier it's not always about "technical efficiency", ala there's examples of a metric ton of people preferring the MRX816 even though specs wise it sucks compared to an MOTU 16A..
John you know I'm as fussy as the best of them, but a reality check is needed once in a while.. If you can't cut amazing tracks on the MOTU, it ain't the interfaces fault.
I'm not in the camp of the Symphony's D/A being better..... I've heard both and I honestly believe the Motu is more extended on top. Apogee has always from memory tuned their converters to be a little softer/smoother sounding. Honestly the Motu and Symphony as so close in builds that some guys did a null test on the purple site and found they nulled out to something like -76db. You can do a search and find that thread over there. Now, that was the MKI not the MKII, but the D/A side of the MKII were not all that much different, mainly the A/D side was what Apogee made much better. If you look at the guts of the MKII and 16a two things are absolute; the MKII uses the AKM A/D chips (which are great, but so are the Cirrus chips used in the 16a, which both Prism and Cranesong HEDD192 uses) and the other is the MKII uses the OPA1632's as the diff amp into the A/D. The 16a is set up a little different, but changing over the opamps to the OPA1642's would likely keep the detail extension of the 16a but also give it a bit more of a warmer/softer overall tone. Swapping all the opamps I truly believe would put the 16a over the Symphony, but that's just my theory, whether this is true or not is probably about to be found out as I believe I've got someone willing to mod 2 channels to start. I believe this person also still has their MKII's as well, so we'll absolutely know for sure. The bigger picture here is that if you can get a 16a for $850 or ever $1k, it can be tuned and upgraded to go above Apogee and you're saving a pile of money for the I/O.
I had the MK1 and the MOTU 1248, there was hardly anything in it like I specified before plus I showed you the diffmaker outputs which the correlation values were pretty similar (which covers nulls etc.).. If we believe for second Apogee is telling the truth then:
Symphony MK 2:
Digital to Analog:
THD+N: -119dB @ 21dBu (0.00014%) unweighted Dynamic Range: 126dB A weighted
Analog to Digital:
THD+N: -115dB @ 22dBu (0.00020%) unweighted Dynamic range: 122dB A weighted
MOTU 1248 / 16A
Digital to Analog:
Line output 1/4" TRS, balanced, tip hot 123 dB THD+N -110 dB
Analog to Digital:
Line input 1/4" TRS, bal/unbal, tip hot 117 dB THD+N -110 dB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is no doubt the MK2 is better, whether softer is your preference or not.. If we're going down the modding path BLA seem to think they can do miracles with an Avid I/O (via their "mod score")..
There is no way you can hear the difference in THD+N, it is beyond the threshold of human hearing at 0.0002%.. Dynamic range, yeah it's approximatley 140dB although it's Ampex that decided the noise floor was more than sufficient at -118dB. Also when we factor in most modern tracks probably have about 10 - 20dB dynamic range, it's not like it makes all that much difference.
I'm sure dropping in some upgraded OP Amps might bring tangible results, but today most middle of the road "pro audio" interfaces are more than adequate. I mostly stopped caring about converters a while back, well unless I'm at work.. It's not like Sigma Delta's and their surrounding components aren't well established at this point.
P.S one upside is if you get an MOTU you don't have to stay on old MAC, you can get a proper machine.. HEHEHEHE.!
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 9, 2018 16:54:55 GMT -6
Well, I bought it. Sigh. I get to be my own judge. I'll report back. I got it off of the Guitar Center site...and they freaking charged me tax...so it ended up being $940. Sucks, but I think I could flip it pretty easily at like $950 if I don't keep it.
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Post by Guitar on Aug 9, 2018 17:05:32 GMT -6
Well, I bought it. Sigh. I get to be my own judge. I'll report back. I got it off of the Guitar Center site...and they freaking charged me tax...so it ended up being $940. Sucks, but I think I could flip it pretty easily at like $950 if I don't keep it. Yes, that is the game with the Guitar Center website. There will always be tax and shipping in every state... so the prices may initially seem pretty low. I'm pretty sure they price items with that in mind. My PRS SE Custom 24 was $350 but out the door it was nearly $400. It's a good guitar, no denying that, but you do have to keep your expectations in order, regarding the final price. However I have gotten some really good deals from GC Used so I think it's a great place to shop. I'll be really interested in your MOTU / Symphony shootout!
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 9, 2018 17:09:00 GMT -6
Well, I bought it. Sigh. I get to be my own judge. I'll report back. I got it off of the Guitar Center site...and they freaking charged me tax...so it ended up being $940. Sucks, but I think I could flip it pretty easily at like $950 if I don't keep it. Yes, that is the game with the Guitar Center website. There will always be tax and shipping in every state... so the prices may initially seem pretty low. I'm pretty sure they price items with that in mind. My PRS SE Custom 24 was $350 but out the door it was nearly $400. It's a good guitar, no denying that, but you do have to keep your expectations in order, regarding the final price. However I have gotten some really good deals from GC Used so I think it's a great place to shop. I'll be really interested in your MOTU / Symphony shootout! Maybe a couple of you Nashville guys can come over and see what we find.
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