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Post by matt on Aug 20, 2018 16:12:09 GMT -6
A very Interesting thread, so what's the conclusion? I have read good things about JCF Audio, of course an other price range, but which chips are inside those convertors? Yeah, JCF is head and shoulders above even Apogee, Al Schmitt and Steve Genewick talk about using a Latte to print mixes at Capital Studio A in a video I watched not too long ago. I looked it up and went into sticker shock. For me, that's saying something.
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Post by jrasia on Aug 20, 2018 16:26:25 GMT -6
I can attest to the greatness of JCF. I got 2 x AD8 and the new DA8T here. All with PEP modules. Alas, considering how little recording I'm doing these days, I may have to list them. I'm in the same boat as John. Hit me up if any members are interested.
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Post by LesC on Aug 20, 2018 18:35:23 GMT -6
I might have to think about the 24ai and 24ao.. I'm always looking out for the next new thing in case my setup dies. If you're on windows forget about it, last night the phantom random crackle returned.. Doesn't matter what buffer size you set.! I've had random disconnects, crashes etc. I've NEVER had issues with my MTK on the same PC..
The drivers suck and I'm dumping mine shortly, I stopped using it for a year previously due to the same issues because support didn't have a clue..
Thank you for this. I sold my RME UFX a few months ago while I could still get more than I paid for it. I've been considering either the MOTU 828es or the RME UFX II or +. The MOTU has more features while the RME costs twice as much. I've used RME for a long time and their drivers have never let me down, so you've really helped my decision.
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Post by mulmany on Aug 20, 2018 19:10:01 GMT -6
If you're on windows forget about it, last night the phantom random crackle returned.. Doesn't matter what buffer size you set.! I've had random disconnects, crashes etc. I've NEVER had issues with my MTK on the same PC..
The drivers suck and I'm dumping mine shortly, I stopped using it for a year previously due to the same issues because support didn't have a clue..
Thank you for this. I sold my RME UFX a few months ago while I could still get more than I paid for it. I've been considering either the MOTU 828es or the RME UFX II or +. The MOTU has more features while the RME costs twice as much. I've used RME for a long time and their drivers have never let me down, so you've really helped my decision. I would not take his experience with Motu as true for all Windows users. I ran my 16a on Windows when I first got it without a single issue. There are lots of others that use Windows without problems. I would try it from a shop with a good return policy and test on your CPU.
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Post by LesC on Aug 20, 2018 19:24:05 GMT -6
Thank you for this. I sold my RME UFX a few months ago while I could still get more than I paid for it. I've been considering either the MOTU 828es or the RME UFX II or +. The MOTU has more features while the RME costs twice as much. I've used RME for a long time and their drivers have never let me down, so you've really helped my decision. I would not take his experience with Motu as true for all Windows users. I ran my 16a on Windows when I first got it without a single issue. There are lots of others that use Windows without problems. I would try it from a shop with a good return policy and test on your CPU. Yeah, I was thinking this too. But the number of users with MOTU windows driver problems just seems to grow. And several had working systems for months, then problems with MOTU seemingly unable to figure out the reasons. But I'm still thinking. The RME's are a lot of money but spread over the next ten years, the driver reliability might be worth it. I'll ruminate on it a bit longer.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 20, 2018 20:30:25 GMT -6
If you're on windows forget about it, last night the phantom random crackle returned.. Doesn't matter what buffer size you set.! I've had random disconnects, crashes etc. I've NEVER had issues with my MTK on the same PC..
The drivers suck and I'm dumping mine shortly, I stopped using it for a year previously due to the same issues because support didn't have a clue..
Thank you for this. I sold my RME UFX a few months ago while I could still get more than I paid for it. I've been considering either the MOTU 828es or the RME UFX II or +. The MOTU has more features while the RME costs twice as much. I've used RME for a long time and their drivers have never let me down, so you've really helped my decision. That’s one thing you have to give RME credit for truly rock solid drivers. They may not be the fashion of the moment, but they don’t suck and their rock solid.
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Post by LesC on Aug 20, 2018 20:38:41 GMT -6
Thank you for this. I sold my RME UFX a few months ago while I could still get more than I paid for it. I've been considering either the MOTU 828es or the RME UFX II or +. The MOTU has more features while the RME costs twice as much. I've used RME for a long time and their drivers have never let me down, so you've really helped my decision. That’s one thing you have to give RME credit for truly rock solid drivers. They may not be the fashion of the moment, but they don’t suck and their rock solid. Yes, and I can connect my SvartBox via SPDIF and my RME ADI-2 Pro via ADAT, so that will give me great conversion for my primary channels.
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Post by jeromemason on Aug 20, 2018 20:53:33 GMT -6
Thank you for this. I sold my RME UFX a few months ago while I could still get more than I paid for it. I've been considering either the MOTU 828es or the RME UFX II or +. The MOTU has more features while the RME costs twice as much. I've used RME for a long time and their drivers have never let me down, so you've really helped my decision. That’s one thing you have to give RME credit for truly rock solid drivers. They may not be the fashion of the moment, but they don’t suck and their rock solid. That ADI-2 Pro and ADI-2 DAC are pretty damn sexy I think retailers sell out of the DAC anytime they get a batch too, Hi-Fi and Pro guys are all over that box. I would throw in here, I'd isolate the driver thing to Windows, because on a Mac, the Motu boxes are solid. The issue I believe with the Windows drivers are that Motu is using a generic audio driver and with more and more pro guys going to Windows they surely need to take it seriously and get a driver system in place that is as solid as their Mac approach.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2018 5:52:58 GMT -6
Thank you for this. I sold my RME UFX a few months ago while I could still get more than I paid for it. I've been considering either the MOTU 828es or the RME UFX II or +. The MOTU has more features while the RME costs twice as much. I've used RME for a long time and their drivers have never let me down, so you've really helped my decision. I would not take his experience with Motu as true for all Windows users. I ran my 16a on Windows when I first got it without a single issue. There are lots of others that use Windows without problems. I would try it from a shop with a good return policy and test on your CPU. It's not CPU related, I've tested it on an ASUS ROG (I7 4810MQ) another machine with an I7 5960X and another with an E5 2697V4. The machine I'm currently using isn't the machine I used when I first had issues..
The only consistancy is I'm using USB and it's the same MOTU 1248 unit. Motu's reputation isn't built upon decent Windows drivers, there were a LOT of issues with older products too.. It would be interesting to see how it runs over Thunderbolt, although it's a lot of time and some expensive to find out on my side.
The MOTU is a good sounding interface although nowadays many are.. Amazing price for the amount of I/O, flexbility and AVB but if you don't need much of those I'd still look somewhere else personally..
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 23, 2018 14:55:17 GMT -6
I might have to think about the 24ai and 24ao.. I'm always looking out for the next new thing in case my setup dies. That's the setup I'm using. Been smooth sailing here, but I'm on a Mac.
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Post by jacobamerritt on Aug 29, 2018 14:33:31 GMT -6
I have a 16A and love it. Interfaces easily with my patchbays. Sounds great. Very stable.
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Post by keymod on Aug 30, 2018 3:06:42 GMT -6
I have a 16A and love it. Interfaces easily with my patchbays. Sounds great. Very stable. I just ordered one because it will mate perfectly with the 16 channel API 8200A/8200 sidecar I've been building ( forever, LOL ). I considered Apollo 16 but don't want to run Windows10, since I am happy using Windows7. Therefore, I now have a racked but unused 24Ao for sale.
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Post by keymod on Sept 13, 2018 3:05:31 GMT -6
Well, this isn't going well. Spent time installing the 16a in my patch bay, downloaded the latest motu driver software and updated the firmware. The computer ( ADK running Win7Pro ) recognizes that the 16a exists, but refuses to load the drivers. Opened a Tech report with Motu and they offered some suggestions, none of which worked. Last night a major crash of the computer, apparently because of newly installed hardware, caused me major ulcers and lost hours trying to get the computer back up. Miraculously, Windows somehow repaired the issue on it's own because I didn't have a clue what to do. But I'm back to square one, drivers won't load for the 16a and it's starting to look like a boat anchor.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2018 3:28:24 GMT -6
Well, this isn't going well. Spent time installing the 16a in my patch bay, downloaded the latest motu driver software and updated the firmware. The computer ( ADK running Win7Pro ) recognizes that the 16a exists, but refuses to load the drivers. Opened a Tech report with Motu and they offered some suggestions, none of which worked. Last night a major crash of the computer, apparently because of newly installed hardware, caused me major ulcers and lost hours trying to get the computer back up. Miraculously, Windows somehow repaired the issue on it's own because I didn't have a clue what to do. But I'm back to square one, drivers won't load for the 16a and it's starting to look like a boat anchor.
Same thing happened to me on W8, I downgraded it w/ older firmware / drivers and it worked (well, kinda).. Never got rid of the intermittent crackles issue..
Sorry to hear about your problems, I and many others on Windows machines feel your pain..
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Post by keymod on Sept 13, 2018 3:39:00 GMT -6
I understand Motu always was a Mac-based company, but they claim their products now work with Windows. And I have a very good Windows machine. I don't need the 16a for my own use, as I have RME Raydat running through my RADAR converters, but I wanted the 16a for visitors who are starting to bring their laptops. The thought is that they can plug into the 16a and access my sidecar, console and all of my outboard through my patch bays. The 16a will probably work fine with their Apple laptops, but I would like the option to use it myself.
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Post by indiehouse on Sept 13, 2018 7:19:33 GMT -6
I understand Motu always was a Mac-based company, but they claim their products now work with Windows. And I have a very good Windows machine. I don't need the 16a for my own use, as I have RME Raydat running through my RADAR converters, but I wanted the 16a for visitors who are starting to bring their laptops. The thought is that they can plug into the 16a and access my sidecar, console and all of my outboard through my patch bays. The 16a will probably work fine with their Apple laptops, but I would like the option to use it myself. Don’t give up on Motu tech support. I’ve had positive experiences with them.
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Post by matt@IAA on Sept 13, 2018 8:09:08 GMT -6
I am not a computer expert but this doesn't sound like a motu issue to me. Plugging in a USB device is not going to make a computer crash. I have a difficult time believing bad drivers would make a computer crash unless you were actively trying to use that device. But even then, it seems pretty unlikely.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2018 8:33:37 GMT -6
I am not a computer expert but this doesn't sound like a motu issue to me. Plugging in a USB device is not going to make a computer crash. I have a difficult time believing bad drivers would make a computer crash unless you were actively trying to use that device. But even then, it seems pretty unlikely.
If you've ever written drivers you'll find out it doesn't take that much effort to invoke an exception / BSOD. Power state failures, IRQL's etc. etc. hell I can do it from inside visual studio with a null pointer, actually once I stopped debugging and that was enough to flip the machine..
It's simple as sipping tea..
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Post by matt@IAA on Sept 13, 2018 9:53:58 GMT -6
The drivers didnt load. And even if they did, unplug+reboot should isolate it. He's saying it had to enter into some kind of recovery with repair. That's not, to me, a driver issue.
But anyway, I have Motu drivers on Win7 and have never had an issue. So it may be a combination of specific hardware he's using, or some other software installed, or who knows. But it's kind of hard to point at Motu and say "this is your issue". It is just as likely to be something else.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2018 10:26:35 GMT -6
The drivers didnt load. And even if they did, unplug+reboot should isolate it. He's saying it had to enter into some kind of recovery with repair. That's not, to me, a driver issue. But anyway, I have Motu drivers on Win7 and have never had an issue. So it may be a combination of specific hardware he's using, or some other software installed, or who knows. But it's kind of hard to point at Motu and say "this is your issue". It is just as likely to be something else.
Unplug and "reboot" won't isolate anything and drivers "didn't" load mean nothing out of context. You don't know how far the drivers got in the load process (unless you somehow read logging files / dumps (if they have them)), easiest way to find out is the check the hardware bus adapters under control panel > device manager..
They usually stand out with an exclamation mark if the device has not been recognized and if you go into properties it will give you an error code like "failed to load drivers".. Firstly there should be no "other" drivers with exclamations because that could point to missing / faulty chipset drivers for all we know, also the USB host adapter / chipset drivers (usually intel on PC) should be updated to the latest ones..
If there are zero errors, all chipset's drivers updated and the device isn't being recognized by the USB host adapter plus other devices (usb drives etc.) work fine 9/10 times it'll be the unit that's faulty..
Driver issues for the specific device? Well I had them with an RME and had to re-install them several times. Best thing to do is dig around in the system logs for anything that might give you a clue when plugging in / out (win button + R, compmgmt.msc, event logs)..
Also check the firmware on the MOTU, it will NOT work (at all) on the latest drivers with old firmware and it has to be updated over a network device.
Sorry but you have zero idea what effect HW / drivers can have on your system.. The first time I installed a Samsung Evo in my machine which required UEFI it trashed my machine (on X99 Asus) and required a re-install, so HW / SW can cause all sorts of weird and wonderful stuff.
I don't mean this as any disrespect, I've worked with audio equipment (interfaces etc. etc.) / servers / VMWARE etc. for twenty years so are you "actually" a computer expert? Or calling me out? I'm fine either way, but I'd rather get Keymod's issues sorted and not dredge up misguided speculation.
Keep trying with MOTU support, if you don't get anywhere PM me and we'll go through it..
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Post by subspace on Sept 13, 2018 11:24:57 GMT -6
I understand Motu always was a Mac-based company, but they claim their products now work with Windows. And I have a very good Windows machine. I don't need the 16a for my own use, as I have RME Raydat running through my RADAR converters, but I wanted the 16a for visitors who are starting to bring their laptops. The thought is that they can plug into the 16a and access my sidecar, console and all of my outboard through my patch bays. The 16a will probably work fine with their Apple laptops, but I would like the option to use it myself. I just had a producer do exactly this, brought his MacBook Pro in to run his project and I tried connecting my 16A after installing drivers on his machine. Of course I was running an older version of the driver, which needed to be used with that particular firmware and he was running High Sierra, which resulted in random noise in the 1st recording pass. I switched to a dead simple USB class compliant interface, an Aphex 500 USB rack, which worked perfectly. Just a caution on figuring on Macs being plug and play, there’s a wide range of MacOS versions in use out there and I wouldn’t want to be loading firmware based on whatever walked in the door that day.
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Post by matt@IAA on Sept 13, 2018 13:02:20 GMT -6
The drivers didnt load. And even if they did, unplug+reboot should isolate it. He's saying it had to enter into some kind of recovery with repair. That's not, to me, a driver issue. But anyway, I have Motu drivers on Win7 and have never had an issue. So it may be a combination of specific hardware he's using, or some other software installed, or who knows. But it's kind of hard to point at Motu and say "this is your issue". It is just as likely to be something else.
Unplug and "reboot" won't isolate anything and drivers "didn't" load mean nothing out of context. You don't know how far the drivers got in the load process (unless you somehow read logging files / dumps (if they have them)), easiest way to find out is the check the hardware bus adapters under control panel > device manager..
They usually stand out with an exclamation mark if the device has not been recognized and if you go into properties it will give you an error code like "failed to load drivers".. Firstly there should be no "other" drivers with exclamations because that could point to missing / faulty chipset drivers for all we know, also the USB host adapter / chipset drivers (usually intel on PC) should be updated to the latest ones..
If there are zero errors, all chipset's drivers updated and the device isn't being recognized by the USB host adapter plus other devices (usb drives etc.) work fine 9/10 times it'll be the unit that's faulty..
Driver issues for the specific device? Well I had them with an RME and had to re-install them several times. Best thing to do is dig around in the system logs for anything that might give you a clue when plugging in / out (win button + R, compmgmt.msc, event logs)..
Also check the firmware on the MOTU, it will NOT work (at all) on the latest drivers with old firmware and it has to be updated over a network device.
Sorry but you have zero idea what effect HW / drivers can have on your system.. The first time I installed a Samsung Evo in my machine which required UEFI it trashed my machine (on X99 Asus) and required a re-install, so HW / SW can cause all sorts of weird and wonderful stuff.
I don't mean this as any disrespect, I've worked with audio equipment (interfaces etc. etc.) / servers / VMWARE etc. for twenty years so are you "actually" a computer expert? Or calling me out? I'm fine either way, but I'd rather get Keymod's issues sorted and not dredge up misguided speculation.
Keep trying with MOTU support, if you don't get anywhere PM me and we'll go through it..
I actually said I'm not a computer expert by any means. You don't know how far drivers got in the load process either, so as far as I know everyone here is just speculatin'. Why would I call you out? I have nothing to prove on this topic at all. But, of the three folks talking about this, apparently I'm the only one that can get a 16A working without any issues on his machine. Go figure.
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Post by keymod on Sept 14, 2018 3:16:08 GMT -6
I appreciate everyone's comments. Please don't get upset with each other on my account. I haven't had any time to address my Windows issue. I have very little understanding about what goes on behind the scenes in a computer's workings but I can assure you that my machine was working issue free for years until this attempt at Motu drivers. And yes, Windows pointed out that the problem was related to a new hardware/software issue as it told me to try to get into safe mode by trying to hit the F8 button while re-booting. One of the suggestions by Windows was to download updates to 7, as it inferred updating might make the new drivers to be recognized. This is what ( appeared ) to cause the crash as, once the updates were installed and the computer tried to re-boot, the crash happened upon a failed re-boot. Thank you, Shadowamd, for your offer to help - I will let you know.
Dogears, I'm glad your machine is working for you with 16a. I really want to get mine running properly as well.
Subspace - I had a couple visitors to the studio last night and one guy brought over his new MacBook ( I don't know what version ) . He downloaded the Motu drivers while here, plugged in the USB cable to the 16a and had it working through my patch bays and console within minutes, just as I had envisioned. We didn't have to do anything about firmware, as I had actually been able to update the firmware while attempting to get it to work on my Windows machine. We didn't try Thunderbolt as we didn't have a cable.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 14, 2018 4:23:37 GMT -6
I actually said I'm not a computer expert by any means. You don't know how far drivers got in the load process either, so as far as I know everyone here is just speculatin'. Why would I call you out? I have nothing to prove on this topic at all. But, of the three folks talking about this, apparently I'm the only one that can get a 16A working without any issues on his machine. Go figure.
I was an early adopter of the interface, initially nothing worked properly... After a couple of updates I had the MOTU 1248 working fine but the control panel was buggy which is only a web page / nothing to do with a machine.
On the latest FW / Drivers I get the same issues some earlier FW / drivers had (intermittent crackles).. It could be fine for five hours then all of a sudden it happens.
Of course I went through all the optimizations, even when it was working fine though due to "safety" buffers latency was never all that good over USB.. It's not on the same playing field as RME and the routing matrix isn't all that great compared to TotalMix, then again I can't say many USB interfaces / digital mixers are.
Thunderbolt is where the MOTU works best IMO, I have one on my W10 laptop.. Shame I really don't like W10..!
I'm for sure not getting "upset" it's a forum and I choose to reply (I could just y'know not), also I'm generally so laid back I'm horizontal , when sorting out issues I find it's easier to cut the BS and get straight the core of it.
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Post by subspace on Sept 14, 2018 8:34:40 GMT -6
Subspace - I had a couple visitors to the studio last night and one guy brought over his new MacBook ( I don't know what version ) . He downloaded the Motu drivers while here, plugged in the USB cable to the 16a and had it working through my patch bays and console within minutes, just as I had envisioned. We didn't have to do anything about firmware, as I had actually been able to update the firmware while attempting to get it to work on my Windows machine. We didn't try Thunderbolt as we didn't have a cable. I would guess USB would've solved our issue as well but I was wired for TB2 and there was a 500 rack with USB sitting right in front of me so expediency it was. It probably would've been fine if I had updated firmware in my 16A, but I love my old Yosemite partition and it's rock-solid with it so I don't worry about the latest firmware.
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