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Post by mrholmes on May 1, 2018 17:33:36 GMT -6
OH MY.
I talk about this with my Luthier for a long time, he worked for the Gibson distribution in Germany. He agress with me that there is a long long line of errors year after year.
Just a few random errors come to my mind.
1. Very very very bad customer service since Gibson is doing the distribution for Europe alone!!
2. Adhesion contracts with shop owners. This brought the world biggest retailer to the point to not sell Gibson for a longer period!!
3. Stupid German Motor-Tuning-Heads not working properly!!
4. Comeing up with a Gibson Studio Monitor?
5. Planing to sell Microphones under the Gibson Brand??
6. Cutting down QC....WHY?
I had many students in the last 5 years with big trouble with Gibsons. The biggest thing was a truss-rod nut which was not moving right or left - brand new SG.
7. Giving a lot of know how to China factories. WHY??? Now they build good qualtiy guitars under diffrent brands, and people start to give shit about the headstock LOGO.
Gibson is a traditional High-Qualty-US-Guitar Brand. I expect good qualty guitars from Gibson. If I dont get what was sure bet for decades ---- BYE BYE
This CEO is a true busted flush and I dont understand why they still doing it with the guy?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 1, 2018 17:40:45 GMT -6
I hope Gibson comes out of Chapter 11 lean and mean, focussed on making guitars. Time to go back to their roots. My 2015 J-200 Parlor is simply the best guitar I've ever owned and my bassist's left-hand 2018 J-200 is even better. They are astonishing instruments. The fit/finish, playability and tonality of these guitars is beyond reproach. The legacy of this brand has earned it another chance in the marketplace- with new management, of course. The current batch has joined the long, sad list of bad businessmen who drive viable, valuable businesses into the ground in the name of leveraged expansion. Debt kills, it's that simple. Not doubting the quality of your guitar, but that ain't no J-200. The "J" stands for "Jumbo", it's not a letter chosen at random out of a hat. You can't have a parlor size jumbo, it's an oxymoron. It's typical of Henry's disrespect for the tradition of his own company. The proper designation should be P-200. As to Gibson coming out focused on making guitars, I doubt it, considering that the new people in control are hedge fund MBAs, not guitar people. I wonder how long it'll take to ship manufacturing offshore to China or Korea.... I hope I'm wrong... So Korea gets to do to Nashville what Nashville did to Kalamazoo? Last time somebody told me that they wanted a new “Real Gibson Electric” I told them they still make them, they just say Heritage!
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Post by swurveman on May 1, 2018 18:44:09 GMT -6
1. Virtually none of the $1.5 trillion of the cratering subprime mortgages in 2008 were backed by Fannie or Freddie. Care to elaborate on that point? Not being snarky here but that's contrary to a lot of what I've read. By late 2008 Fannie/Freddie owned or backed upwards of $300 Billion in bad debt (subprime mortgages). Not really. My view regarding these debates-which essentially become political spats in what I consider a political environment where booth parties are owned by Wall Street and special interests is- "Forget it Jake. It's Chinatown".
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Post by johneppstein on May 1, 2018 19:45:41 GMT -6
Not doubting the quality of your guitar, but that ain't no J-200. The "J" stands for "Jumbo", it's not a letter chosen at random out of a hat. You can't have a parlor size jumbo, it's an oxymoron. It's typical of Henry's disrespect for the tradition of his own company. The proper designation should be P-200. As to Gibson coming out focused on making guitars, I doubt it, considering that the new people in control are hedge fund MBAs, not guitar people. I wonder how long it'll take to ship manufacturing offshore to China or Korea.... I hope I'm wrong... So Korea gets to do to Nashville what Nashville did to Kalamazoo? Last time somebody told me that they wanted a new “Real Gibson Electric” I told them they still make them, they just say Heritage! Sadly, they no longer make flattops. I've been a (real) Gibson flattop guy since around '63. Too bad that nobody really makes them anymore.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 1, 2018 19:55:18 GMT -6
So Korea gets to do to Nashville what Nashville did to Kalamazoo? Last time somebody told me that they wanted a new “Real Gibson Electric” I told them they still make them, they just say Heritage! Sadly, they no longer make flattops. I've been a (real) Gibson flattop guy since around '63. Too bad that nobody really makes them anymore. Yeah unfortunately there is no money in flat tops these days. Custom is the only way to go.
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Post by jeremygillespie on May 1, 2018 20:49:22 GMT -6
Honestly, if I want a serious Gibson style acoustic these days I’d have to go vintage, or get one made by a builder. I can’t remember the last time I played a new Gibson acoustic and thought it was good. Most of them have been out right turds.
With any luck the guys in the mando division and the few that are capable of building nice acoustics will start their own company.
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Post by Tbone81 on May 1, 2018 20:50:01 GMT -6
Care to elaborate on that point? Not being snarky here but that's contrary to a lot of what I've read. By late 2008 Fannie/Freddie owned or backed upwards of $300 Billion in bad debt (subprime mortgages). Not really. My view regarding these debates-which essentially become political spats in what I consider a political environment where booth parties are owned by Wall Street and special interests is- "Forget it Jake. It's Chinatown". Well, to each his own. But I wasn't being argumentative, just wondering if I was missing something in your 1st point. I agree with just about everything you said.
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Post by johneppstein on May 2, 2018 6:50:38 GMT -6
Sadly, they no longer make flattops. I've been a (real) Gibson flattop guy since around '63. Too bad that nobody really makes them anymore. Yeah unfortunately there is no money in flat tops these days. Custom is the only way to go. There might be money if Gibson didn't overcharge absaurdly for substandard product. Others seem to do OK.
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 2, 2018 7:18:37 GMT -6
Aside from outrageously overextending the company through buying so many other companies, the CEO broke cardinal retail rules. A simple basic, better, best line is how it should work, not 50 versions of the same product. I couldn't keep track of any of the various models Gibson offered.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 2, 2018 7:46:02 GMT -6
No shit. The EXACT same thing that caused (well, one of them) the Mortgage Crisis. Package, resell, package, resale, package, resale. Crazy that there are suckers that will buy stuff without knowing what they're buying. You know back in the old days when the Enron Crisis hit I was sitting in a coffeehouse in Rice Village maybe 10 miles from the Erin building with a VC explaining Eric’s 5th rule of business; if it takes somebody more than 10 seconds to explain what the business dose, walk away!
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Post by Johnkenn on May 2, 2018 8:34:42 GMT -6
Not very surprising to me given the relationship we allow between the financial class and the political class. Banks are the biggest welfare recipients this nation has ever seen. I remember listening to an interview with a bunch of bankers at a Manhattan bar right in the middle of the economic collapse (which they caused, broadly speaking). These dudes were snide little shits whining about how the citizenry was stupid and ungrateful for what they (the bankers) do for the world. This was literally right in the middle of them getting a check for a gazillion dollars from all of us because they tanked the economy with their fraudulent practices. It was wild hearing these entitled-frat-boys working at daddy’s frat-bro’s firm snickering to one another. Except that without the greed of the customer base, they never would have sold a single thing. Bankers made more due to selling more, and the consumer wanted free money just as much as the bankers did. Everyone loves to place blame on certain people, it's an easy way for people to categorize the world around themselves, but it's disingenuous to think the "bankers did it" without seeing that they only provided a service to those who demanded it, regardless of the ethics of it all. The truth is that it was politics that started it but everyone wanted a piece of the low rates, which were essentially easy money. Bill Clinton removed the pieces of the bills that required separation of investments(Glass-Steagall), and put forth legislation that required banks to make a certain percentage of their loans to lower-income people that wouldn't normally be eligible for loans (1995 Community reinvestment act), also pressured HUD into buying up large amounts of subprime loans, and forced regulators to hold bank expansions until they complied with subprime lending as well. Banks would sell back to FannyMae/FreddieMac and the Fed kept cutting rates to keep the "warm and fuzzy" period going as long as possible before the inevitable crash due to inflation. The Fed had to start raising rates to slow the inflation, but that strained the 30+ million subprime loan payers and the house of cards would collapse when coupled with Dubya and his finance guys ignoring all the red flags for 8 years and you have a housing/banking crisis in the making. This^^
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Post by iamasound on May 2, 2018 9:44:28 GMT -6
I hope Gibson comes out of Chapter 11 lean and mean, focussed on making guitars. Time to go back to their roots. My 2015 J-200 Parlor is simply the best guitar I've ever owned and my bassist's left-hand 2018 J-200 is even better. They are astonishing instruments. The fit/finish, playability and tonality of these guitars is beyond reproach. The legacy of this brand has earned it another chance in the marketplace- with new management, of course. The current batch has joined the long, sad list of bad businessmen who drive viable, valuable businesses into the ground in the name of leveraged expansion. Debt kills, it's that simple. I have a 1980 Ibanez J-200, a really nice sounding, loud and projecting maple bodied "homage" to the Gibson. A couple of years ago I had heard that a store in Basel had a hand picked 200 from the Gibson factory, so headed down to check out how close mine came to it...it didn't come close, that Gibson just blew me and mine away. I was a little baffled though when I first picked it up and felt that something was off. I played an open E chord in the first position and the vibrational energy coming off of the soundboard felt muffled, stifled some way. Then something like a little voice inside my head suggested that I smack the bottom end of the guitar. The price of the guitar was almost CHF 7,000 and it wasn't mine, but I was alone in the room and so, making sure that the strap pin wasn't in there so I wouldn't hurt my hand, gave the guitar a hefty zetz. There was a big snapping sound and I got scared that I broke it, but no, thank goodness, I guess things just settled in where they needed to be, and after that and for the next 20 minutes was in jumbo heaven. I tried out a few alternate tunings and it was perfectly intonated every time and held each tuning. Finger picking, cross picking, flurries and combinations of playing fast and loud, with a soft puck, a stiff pick, everything sounded so full, rich and very, very gorgeous. If they could do this consistently and focus on their strengths, Gibson could remain a contender. This one was a very special guitar and I guess was no fluke. I hope for the sake of their production staff that they get it together as well as for artists that need great tools like the one I played (but wish that I could afford).
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Post by matt on May 2, 2018 10:06:45 GMT -6
My 2015 J-200 Parlor is simply the best guitar I've ever owned and my bassist's left-hand 2018 J-200 is even better. This one was a very special guitar and I guess was no fluke. My bassist's J-200 fits your description. He has a very controlled finger-style technique with a soft attack and the sound that rolls out of his guitar is mesmerizing. So balanced and full. My Parlor is really a J-165 sized body in J-200 livery so it doesn't sound quite as deep but the tonal character is the same. They sound glorious together. I hope Gibson gets good management and keeps making great guitars like these.
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Post by johneppstein on May 2, 2018 10:38:28 GMT -6
For the last severtal years Gibson has produced a number of different J-200s, not counting the baby. List prices started at around $5,000, which usually retails aropund $3,500-$4,000. Every one of those I've seen has been an utter dog, with workmanship that hasn't even looked completely finished. I'm talking things like bridges that appeared to be straight off the CNC router with splintery edges that obviously had not been hand sanded or finished in any way - top surface of the wings flat like an Epiphone copy, not nicely rounded as it should be. Embarassing. Maybe that might pass with somebody who has never held an original but if you have the lack of quality is glaring. Then there are the "Custom Shop" models that run between $10,000 and $50,000, depending on the amount of extraneous trim. Perhaps some dealers might negotiate discounts on some of those, but I have not seen any advertised. You shouldn't have to pay $10,000 just to get an instrument that has had the basic hand finishing work done, even if it is a "flagship" model. For that kind of money you can easily get a nice '50s vintage one. Obviously Gibson had abandoned the player's market and was looking to sell "museum quality" instruments to doctors and lawyers who would likely just put it in a glass case in their "man cave".
I have about $5,000 in my '59 because it had had a factory quality refinish job done about 30 years ago. And that includes installation of the LR Baggs Anthem pickup system.
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Post by geoff738 on May 2, 2018 17:56:01 GMT -6
Honestly, if I want a serious Gibson style acoustic these days I’d have to go vintage, or get one made by a builder. I can’t remember the last time I played a new Gibson acoustic and thought it was good. Most of them have been out right turds. With any luck the guys in the mando division and the few that are capable of building nice acoustics will start their own company. John Walker and Kevin Kopp are still out there. Not sure where REN Ferguson has ended up. He got poached by Fender a few years back but that didn’t last. These guys are all builders from the custom shop in Montana. Have heard differing opinions about the quality of current Gibson’s, but hope they can get their act together under new management. Henry might have been good for the company three decades ago, but recently? He’s a nutter. Cheers, Geoff
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Post by geoff738 on May 2, 2018 19:58:05 GMT -6
Just read that Heritage is going through hard times too. A few people let go last week and some left in solidarity. On top of layoffs either last year or earlier this year.
Despite being only only a few hours down the highway from Kalamazoo theyre pretty rare around here. The couple I’ve played were excellent.
Cheers, Geoff
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Post by jeremygillespie on May 2, 2018 19:59:51 GMT -6
Just read that Heritage is going through hard times too. A few people let go last week and some left in solidarity. On top of layoffs either last year or earlier this year. Despite being only only a few hours down the highway from Kalamazoo theyre pretty rare around here. The couple I’ve played were excellent. Cheers, Geoff They are fantastic guitars but I agree - don’t see many out in the field.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 2, 2018 20:31:53 GMT -6
Just read that Heritage is going through hard times too. A few people let go last week and some left in solidarity. On top of layoffs either last year or earlier this year. Despite being only only a few hours down the highway from Kalamazoo theyre pretty rare around here. The couple I’ve played were excellent. Cheers, Geoff That sucks and used they are a bargain.
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 3, 2018 6:26:29 GMT -6
In my world (live blues), I see mostly Fender and Gibson guitars. The most common boutique guitar I see is Delaney. Had a guy with an 8 string Ibanez playing funky blues last week though. That was wild.
Way more boutique amps than guitars.
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Post by kilroyrock on May 3, 2018 6:54:06 GMT -6
In my world (live blues), I see mostly Fender and Gibson guitars. The most common boutique guitar I see is Delaney. Had a guy with an 8 string Ibanez playing funky blues last week though. That was wild. Way more boutique amps than guitars. If people looked down on amps vs the 2 guitar brands they've had stuffed down their eye sockets through placements for the last 20 years, you'd see just marshall and fender amps just the same. Maybe the newer ones did, but nobody chose what amp they played through on guitar hero when I played. Sonex 180 prices went up though!
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 3, 2018 7:17:03 GMT -6
In my world (live blues), I see mostly Fender and Gibson guitars. The most common boutique guitar I see is Delaney. Had a guy with an 8 string Ibanez playing funky blues last week though. That was wild. Way more boutique amps than guitars. If people looked down on amps vs the 2 guitar brands they've had stuffed down their eye sockets through placements for the last 20 years, you'd see just marshall and fender amps just the same. Maybe the newer ones did, but nobody chose what amp they played through on guitar hero when I played. Sonex 180 prices went up though! We do get mostly Fender amps though. And if not an actual Fender, it's usually a custom derivative of a Fender.
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Post by johneppstein on May 3, 2018 19:18:22 GMT -6
In my world (live blues), I see mostly Fender and Gibson guitars. The most common boutique guitar I see is Delaney. Had a guy with an 8 string Ibanez playing funky blues last week though. That was wild. Way more boutique amps than guitars. If people looked down on amps vs the 2 guitar brands they've had stuffed down their eye sockets through placements for the last 20 years, you'd see just marshall and fender amps just the same. Maybe the newer ones did, but nobody chose what amp they played through on guitar hero when I played. Sonex 180 prices went up though! What does Guitar Hero have to do with real amplifiers? What does Guitar Hero have to do with anything besides playing games?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 3, 2018 19:29:12 GMT -6
If people looked down on amps vs the 2 guitar brands they've had stuffed down their eye sockets through placements for the last 20 years, you'd see just marshall and fender amps just the same. Maybe the newer ones did, but nobody chose what amp they played through on guitar hero when I played. Sonex 180 prices went up though! What does Guitar Hero have to do with real amplifiers? What does Guitar Hero have to do with anything besides playing games? You mean playing at playing guitar 😁
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Post by kilroyrock on May 3, 2018 20:45:25 GMT -6
If people looked down on amps vs the 2 guitar brands they've had stuffed down their eye sockets through placements for the last 20 years, you'd see just marshall and fender amps just the same. Maybe the newer ones did, but nobody chose what amp they played through on guitar hero when I played. Sonex 180 prices went up though! What does Guitar Hero have to do with real amplifiers? What does Guitar Hero have to do with anything besides playing games? That's where you have lost touch. All current pop stars were playing guitar hero ten years ago on PlayStation 2 as teenagers. They then set out to play and demand the Rockstar guitars they played, by Gibson and fender. If they chose an amp in these games, the boutique amp market would not be so strong, as the video game era children would demand only two amps. Marshall and fender. Remember orange was not readily available new in shops until 2003-ish. Those you could find were 1500-2k. If I didn't play music already I would have been looking for anything fender or Gibson. CEO banked on that. It failed. The internet won. It taught the new era of impulse purchase to follow the forum trends. Guitar heroes are now only in classic rock again.
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Post by jeremygillespie on May 3, 2018 20:51:31 GMT -6
What does Guitar Hero have to do with real amplifiers? What does Guitar Hero have to do with anything besides playing games? That's where you have lost touch. All current pop stars were playing guitar hero ten years ago on PlayStation 2 as teenagers. They then set out to play and demand the Rockstar guitars they played, by Gibson and fender. If they chose an amp in these games, the boutique amp market would not be so strong, as the video game era children would demand only two amps. Marshall and fender. Remember orange was not readily available new in shops until 2003-ish. Those you could find were 1500-2k. If I didn't play music already I would have been looking for anything fender or Gibson. CEO banked on that. It failed. The internet won. It taught the new era of impulse purchase to follow the forum trends. Guitar heroes are now only in classic rock again. There is way more than pop music... Just a few, Julian Lage Blake Mills JOHN MAYER Eric Tessmer Tons of badass popular guitarists out and about that play all sorts of guitars and amps
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