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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 5, 2019 17:32:35 GMT -6
This has been one of my questions. I've been just sending my Drum bus to a stereo channel of the SB...I haven't bothered with it any other way because I only have 8 channels of SB. I guess I could re-print each drum piece through the SB and then mix in the DAW to the Drumbus...then send that to two channels of SB...PITA though. lol
But lets say I eventually have enough channels to do everything real time. I assume it would go something like this - K to SB channel 1, Snare Top and bottom etc to SB channel 2 and so on. OH and ROOM to stereo SB channels. But how would I then have a Drumbus? I mean, I guess I could do it in parallel sending it to both the separate SB channel and the the Drum Bus in the DAW...Am I making sense?
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Post by matt@IAA on Mar 5, 2019 17:46:44 GMT -6
If you take all your mono drum tracks and sum them you have a drum bus in the analog domain. So whatever stereo bus you sum to is your bus. That would then sum as a single stereo pair into the program / two track / stereo bus, using two more inputs. So if you have 8 drum stems, you’d need to use two busses and ten inputs.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 5, 2019 17:48:16 GMT -6
Yeah guess that's really the only way.
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 5, 2019 17:55:20 GMT -6
almost there. The SB1 starts a 0dB just like the SB2. You just gain the ability to turn down your signal on the SB1. NOT turn it up. This would limit how a desk would work in terms of mixing as you usually have +10-16dB in the fader alone on various desks. Either way, you still have to have a good mix coming out of your computer and hitting the SB..not matter what it is. You won't be able to have everything hitting as hard across the board...then it wouldn't be a mix, everything would just be loud. These boxes aren't a mixer. In fact they are FAR from a full console in terms of how you'd mix OTB with a large format desk. However, it is the best summing box in terms of active circuity as you stated, and in that regard is the best "back end" of a console you can probably get today. But you wouldn't setup your outputs of your computer and then mix on the SB1. I mean you could to a very limited point. if you want to turn things down with the rotary knobs live, you totally could However, don't think you could do a full 16ch mix all analog on this this with rotary knobs. Theres a reason why Tom Dowd said "screw this, I want to us all my fingers" and invented faders. You'll still want to do just about all your mixing(think automation) ITB and then you are flavoring it with the SB. This also helps with recall for later. Which in some ways is an advantage to the SB2 as you just have to push a few buttons likely to recall a mix instead of trying to reset your rotary knobs just right. Jeff partnered with a company that created a box called Dawtomation that would be the answer to hitting the SumBus with the best fader resolution. It's a plugin that controls a VCA box and it controls the output volume of each channel. So you set up your DAW session as if you were going into a console, all faders at zero and then your automation is done through the plugin's faders. THIS is as close to getting a console sound as you can get with the SumBus. Well that and making up the gain coming out of the box with a pair of VP28s or Heiders. yeah that system looks cool! Not cheap though sadly. But is very cool. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 5, 2019 17:59:28 GMT -6
This has been one of my questions. I've been just sending my Drum bus to a stereo channel of the SB...I haven't bothered with it any other way because I only have 8 channels of SB. I guess I could re-print each drum piece through the SB and then mix in the DAW to the Drumbus...then send that to two channels of SB...PITA though. lol But lets say I eventually have enough channels to do everything real time. I assume it would go something like this - K to SB channel 1, Snare Top and bottom etc to SB channel 2 and so on. OH and ROOM to stereo SB channels. But how would I then have a Drumbus? I mean, I guess I could do it in parallel sending it to both the separate SB channel and the the Drum Bus in the DAW...Am I making sense? how come youre not doing stems? You could still be sending the Bass, guitars, drums vocals on seperate stems wto your 8ch SB. You'd need two output bus's on the SB to do a separate bus. So lets say you have like a 16x4 or 24x4 SB. You'd send your 4-8ch of drum mics to induvidual channels. Then send them to either only 1 bus or both. Id do both, lets say A is my main mix and then B is my drum bus. So everything else, all 16-24 ch are going to Bus A. On Bus B only the drums are going there, I then take that stereo bus and send it to my bus compressor of choice, crush it, then bring back to the SB on two more channels and that pair gets sent to Bus A as well. Analog parallel drums! Juicy. |
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Post by bartacusad on Mar 5, 2019 17:59:46 GMT -6
This has been one of my questions. I've been just sending my Drum bus to a stereo channel of the SB...I haven't bothered with it any other way because I only have 8 channels of SB. I guess I could re-print each drum piece through the SB and then mix in the DAW to the Drumbus...then send that to two channels of SB...PITA though. lol But lets say I eventually have enough channels to do everything real time. I assume it would go something like this - K to SB channel 1, Snare Top and bottom etc to SB channel 2 and so on. OH and ROOM to stereo SB channels. But how would I then have a Drumbus? I mean, I guess I could do it in parallel sending it to both the separate SB channel and the the Drum Bus in the DAW...Am I making sense? That has been my end game scenario too once I can add at least 8 more channels. Send all my drums to 8 channels assigned to the B bus then through my Dione and then back in with the rest of the band on the A bus with that cable I was talking about. I think Jeff does have something he's cooking up to sum the A & B bus in the future but for now the little diy cable works fine. |
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Post by MorEQsThanAnswers on Mar 5, 2019 19:20:14 GMT -6
Jeff partnered with a company that created a box called Dawtomation that would be the answer to hitting the SumBus with the best fader resolution. It's a plugin that controls a VCA box and it controls the output volume of each channel. So you set up your DAW session as if you were going into a console, all faders at zero and then your automation is done through the plugin's faders. THIS is as close to getting a console sound as you can get with the SumBus. Well that and making up the gain coming out of the box with a pair of VP28s or Heiders. oh wow... www.dawtomationsystems.com/collections/solo8/products/solo-8 |
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 5, 2019 23:23:03 GMT -6
This has been one of my questions. I've been just sending my Drum bus to a stereo channel of the SB...I haven't bothered with it any other way because I only have 8 channels of SB. I guess I could re-print each drum piece through the SB and then mix in the DAW to the Drumbus...then send that to two channels of SB...PITA though. lol But lets say I eventually have enough channels to do everything real time. I assume it would go something like this - K to SB channel 1, Snare Top and bottom etc to SB channel 2 and so on. OH and ROOM to stereo SB channels. But how would I then have a Drumbus? I mean, I guess I could do it in parallel sending it to both the separate SB channel and the the Drum Bus in the DAW...Am I making sense? how come youre not doing stems? You could still be sending the Bass, guitars, drums vocals on seperate stems wto your 8ch SB. You'd need two output bus's on the SB to do a separate bus. So lets say you have like a 16x4 or 24x4 SB. You'd send your 4-8ch of drum mics to induvidual channels. Then send them to either only 1 bus or both. Id do both, lets say A is my main mix and then B is my drum bus. So everything else, all 16-24 ch are going to Bus A. On Bus B only the drums are going there, I then take that stereo bus and send it to my bus compressor of choice, crush it, then bring back to the SB on two more channels and that pair gets sent to Bus A as well. Analog parallel drums! Juicy. Yes - I'm doing stems now...but the goal is enough channels to break it out like you're talking about. My problem is I don't have a HW stereo comp. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 6, 2019 0:33:27 GMT -6
how come youre not doing stems? You could still be sending the Bass, guitars, drums vocals on seperate stems wto your 8ch SB. You'd need two output bus's on the SB to do a separate bus. So lets say you have like a 16x4 or 24x4 SB. You'd send your 4-8ch of drum mics to induvidual channels. Then send them to either only 1 bus or both. Id do both, lets say A is my main mix and then B is my drum bus. So everything else, all 16-24 ch are going to Bus A. On Bus B only the drums are going there, I then take that stereo bus and send it to my bus compressor of choice, crush it, then bring back to the SB on two more channels and that pair gets sent to Bus A as well. Analog parallel drums! Juicy. Yes - I'm doing stems now...but the goal is enough channels to break it out like you're talking about. My problem is I don't have a HW stereo comp. Well break out the soldering iron and build more SB channels and there's tons of buss compressor options out there! |
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 6, 2019 0:38:29 GMT -6
how come youre not doing stems? You could still be sending the Bass, guitars, drums vocals on seperate stems wto your 8ch SB. You'd need two output bus's on the SB to do a separate bus. So lets say you have like a 16x4 or 24x4 SB. You'd send your 4-8ch of drum mics to induvidual channels. Then send them to either only 1 bus or both. Id do both, lets say A is my main mix and then B is my drum bus. So everything else, all 16-24 ch are going to Bus A. On Bus B only the drums are going there, I then take that stereo bus and send it to my bus compressor of choice, crush it, then bring back to the SB on two more channels and that pair gets sent to Bus A as well. Analog parallel drums! Juicy. Yes - I'm doing stems now...but the goal is enough channels to break it out like you're talking about. My problem is I don't have a HW stereo comp. Audioscape's calling your name, Johnkenn... |
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Post by ragan on Mar 6, 2019 0:44:56 GMT -6
Continuing on this tangent...
There's a weird phenomena going on for me with bus compression. I seriously want a HW bus comp...except when I listen to shootouts, some done here on RGO, I never have any kind of a strong preference for the HW. Which is *really* weird because I've AB'd my arse off with hardware vs plugins and I demonstrably prefer the sound of hardware. It's not even that close typically and my ear has honed in on (in most contexts) that difference. For whatever reason, the place where it seems it should be among the MOST consequential (across the 2) is where comparisons are a toss-up. Including some friends here have been kind enough to do with my own material.
I have no explanation for it and I still kind of want a HW SSL comp.
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 6, 2019 0:58:42 GMT -6
Continuing on this tangent... There's a weird phenomena going on for me with bus compression. I seriously want a HW bus comp...except when I listen to shootouts, some done here on RGO, I never have any kind of a strong preference for the HW. Which is *really* weird because I've AB'd my arse off with hardware vs plugins and I demonstrably prefer the sound of hardware. It's not even that close typically and my ear has honed in on (in most contexts) that difference. For whatever reason, the place where it seems it should be among the MOST consequential (across the 2) is where comparisons are a toss-up. Including some friends here have been kind enough to do with my own material. I have no explanation for it and I still kind of want a HW SSL comp. My favorite SSL Bus Comp plugin is DMG's TrackComp on the "G-Bus" setting. It unseated The Glue for me. Under certain conditions, it can pretty closely match my Audioscape. But there are certain other situations where it sounds NOTHING like the Audioscape. I mean NOTHING like it. It's not necessarily a *bad* "nothing," but it's a completely different transient. Now, for all I know, TrackComp might be closer to the original. All I know is I prefer the Audioscape under those conditions by a large margin. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 6, 2019 11:25:02 GMT -6
Continuing on this tangent... There's a weird phenomena going on for me with bus compression. I seriously want a HW bus comp...except when I listen to shootouts, some done here on RGO, I never have any kind of a strong preference for the HW. Which is *really* weird because I've AB'd my arse off with hardware vs plugins and I demonstrably prefer the sound of hardware. It's not even that close typically and my ear has honed in on (in most contexts) that difference. For whatever reason, the place where it seems it should be among the MOST consequential (across the 2) is where comparisons are a toss-up. Including some friends here have been kind enough to do with my own material. I have no explanation for it and I still kind of want a HW SSL comp. SSL VCA comps are an interesting beast. When I first heard one in a SSL Duality...i did not like it. Didn't get the hype or understand why its so well accepted. It took me at least a year of using it to really find its true vibe and use. Its amazing when done right. When not done right..its...idk. just another compressor that pumps too much. Every piece of hardware has a sweet spot..or two..and none of them are the same, thats whats awesome about hardware. But it takes time to learn how to push it and use it and find what you love about it and what you hate and using both to your advantage. But to me as well is that a lot of shootouts that are posted online are mp3s or uploaded to Youtube/Soundcloud and get turned into AACs or something else thats a lossy format. Nothing I ever work on sounds the same when online. Just doesn't. Because im hearing it in full resolution. The trick is, is all the hardware and other things worth it after the file gets stripped of some of its magic? For me, generally yes. Which is a bit of a downer to me about the whole online streaming thing. Even when it sounds good from that....i can't help but imagine how it actually sounds. |
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Post by dror520 on Mar 6, 2019 11:47:06 GMT -6
Continuing on this tangent... There's a weird phenomena going on for me with bus compression. I seriously want a HW bus comp...except when I listen to shootouts, some done here on RGO, I never have any kind of a strong preference for the HW. Which is *really* weird because I've AB'd my arse off with hardware vs plugins and I demonstrably prefer the sound of hardware. It's not even that close typically and my ear has honed in on (in most contexts) that difference. For whatever reason, the place where it seems it should be among the MOST consequential (across the 2) is where comparisons are a toss-up. Including some friends here have been kind enough to do with my own material. I have no explanation for it and I still kind of want a HW SSL comp. SSL VCA comps are an interesting beast. When I first heard one in a SSL Duality...i did not like it. Didn't get the hype or understand why its so well accepted. It took me at least a year of using it to really find its true vibe and use. Its amazing when done right. When not done right..its...idk. just another compressor that pumps too much. Every piece of hardware has a sweet spot..or two..and none of them are the same, thats whats awesome about hardware. But it takes time to learn how to push it and use it and find what you love about it and what you hate and using both to your advantage. But to me as well is that a lot of shootouts that are posted online are mp3s or uploaded to Youtube/Soundcloud and get turned into AACs or something else thats a lossy format. Nothing I ever work on sounds the same when online. Just doesn't. Because im hearing it in full resolution. The trick is, is all the hardware and other things worth it after the file gets stripped of some of its magic? For me, generally yes. Which is a bit of a downer to me about the whole online streaming thing. Even when it sounds good from that....i can't help but imagine how it actually sounds. Just curious, how do you setup the SSL bus compression? |
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 6, 2019 11:51:02 GMT -6
SSL VCA comps are an interesting beast. When I first heard one in a SSL Duality...i did not like it. Didn't get the hype or understand why its so well accepted. It took me at least a year of using it to really find its true vibe and use. Its amazing when done right. When not done right..its...idk. just another compressor that pumps too much. Every piece of hardware has a sweet spot..or two..and none of them are the same, thats whats awesome about hardware. But it takes time to learn how to push it and use it and find what you love about it and what you hate and using both to your advantage. But to me as well is that a lot of shootouts that are posted online are mp3s or uploaded to Youtube/Soundcloud and get turned into AACs or something else thats a lossy format. Nothing I ever work on sounds the same when online. Just doesn't. Because im hearing it in full resolution. The trick is, is all the hardware and other things worth it after the file gets stripped of some of its magic? For me, generally yes. Which is a bit of a downer to me about the whole online streaming thing. Even when it sounds good from that....i can't help but imagine how it actually sounds. Just curious, how do you setup the SSL bus compression? Varies tune to tune. Usually I like lower ratios though. 1.5 or 2, not all SSL style comps have the 1.5 ratio. Slow attack and fast release. Just make the needle dance a bit. Not a heavy handed buss compressor guy. I like to mix low into it and use the make up gain to get the levels just right. That's how I used the SSL Duality one. Im in process of building a couple of clone SSLs by Sperent and DIY Racked. I have and SB4001 too which is awesome with all the features it has. Use a side chain filter often depending on what's happening in the mix. |
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Post by dror520 on Mar 6, 2019 15:38:57 GMT -6
Thanks!
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 1, 2019 18:43:18 GMT -6
I've been mixing a bunch of stuff without the Sumbus - just ITB - because, well, these clients aren't paying enough for me to take the time to print and the reprint 3 revisions or whatever. Finishing up one of my own tunes today and holy crap. It's not really a subtle difference.
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Post by craigmorris74 on Apr 2, 2019 13:34:27 GMT -6
I've been mixing a bunch of stuff without the Sumbus - just ITB - because, well, these clients aren't paying enough for me to take the time to print and the reprint 3 revisions or whatever. Finishing up one of my own tunes today and holy crap. It's not really a subtle difference. Hey John, I'd love to hear the difference. Would it be too big of a pain to post a comparison? Thanks, Craig |
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 2, 2019 13:46:07 GMT -6
Let me see if I can do a snippet of a comparison
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Post by ragan on Apr 2, 2019 14:11:28 GMT -6
I’d really love to hear it too.
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Post by jtc111 on Apr 2, 2019 14:44:50 GMT -6
I'm curious too. I've yet to hear a summing mixer that made me think the improvement was worth the investment. Granted, everything I've heard has been of the "economical" variety with the exception of the Dangerous Music 2-BUS+, but I'm not sure how much of what impressed me was the sound of the summing or the extra features it has that other boxes don't.
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Post by nobtwiddler on Apr 2, 2019 17:19:33 GMT -6
Maybe it's just me ,
But no "in the box" mix I've ever done, comes close to anything I've summed out
to either the console, my remote Helios & Neve 8816 rig, or the Dangerous 2 BUSS+
Not once.
The 2 Buss + is a beautiful piece.
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Post by indiehouse on Apr 2, 2019 17:58:32 GMT -6
I’ve got a Sumbus kit sitting here. I just gotta find the 30+ hours to build the damn thing.
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Post by Quint on Apr 2, 2019 18:34:51 GMT -6
So is my understanding correct that, though the 16x2 version comes with 16 input cards ready to send signal to 4 busses (A Left, A Right, B Left, B Right), it only comes with one ACA card (hence, 16x2 instead of 16x4) for the A bus and that you must purchase a second ACA card to take advantage of routing to the second L/R bus (B bus)?
In other words, if purchased as is, would selecting the B bus on the input cards of the 16x2 version basically result in the signal going nowhere?
If so, what is the cost of purchasing a standalone ACA card to insert in the B bus? I don't think I've seen where that is individually available for sale, but maybe I just missed it.
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 2, 2019 18:37:30 GMT -6
So is my understanding correct that, though the 16x2 version comes with 16 input cards ready to send signal to 4 busses (A Left, A Right, B Left, B Right), it only comes with one ACA card (hence, 16x2 instead of 16x4) for the A bus and that you must purchase a second ACA card to take advantage of routing to the second L/R bus (B bus)? In other words, if purchased as is, would selecting the B bus on the input cards of the 16x2 version basically result in the signal going nowhere? If so, what is the cost of purchasing a standalone ACA card to insert in the B bus? I don't think I've seen where that is individually available for sale, but maybe I just missed it. That is correct. It’s an add on. jsteiger |
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