You know, i'm tired of people who won't even consider that there might be an alternate way to do something, or, oh, why bother....
However, a couple of parting thoughts.....
I wouldn't try to turn them into Mastodon or War Wage. I'd listen to what they have to offer and see what develops. We already have Mastodon and War Wage.
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The way to do the "singing with monitors" thing with a really loud sort of band is to use a small PA system in the live room. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. But if you want the singer to feel like he's onstage it's worth a try.
Have a good night. Here, have a couple aspirin and some Tums....
You probably wouldn't like my music these days, it's not noisy enough. However what I was doing 25-35 years ago is a different story.
Hey, John! No aspirin or Tums for me! Just a couple recording sessions that included some programmed strings (real players are coming in later...I'm stoked to record a violin again), some tribal-esque toms, and some vocals.
...then I mixed until 3:30am my time. Six hours ago. Did some sleeping and now I've been at my day job for two hours.
I'm refreshed!
Back to our discussion!
I ALSO hate when people won't consider that there might be an alternate way of working. Luckily, I'm not one of those people. I often try different ways of working. Alternate methods of just recording (not even including songwriting, mixing, and mastering) I've focused on recently:
1. "Move the mics further back off guitar cabs." Everyone working in hardcore/metal says push 'em up on the grill. I backed 'em off based on advice given here and elsewhere. Mixed results. I got much better results from another new-to-me mic'ing technique called the Fredman technique. Two 57s as close to each other as possible right up on the grill. One on-axis and one at 45º off-axis "looking" across the front of the other mic. The phase cancellation just happens to be right in that fizz range of distorted guitars. Really great!
2. "Set up fewer mics on drums." That's a thing you told me a while back saying I was having phase cancellation problems (but then wouldn't tell me what you were hearing to make you say that). I didn't ever end up getting results with the impact I need. I ended up having to - mid-session - set up three extra mics (two toms and a second room). After making him play it a bunch of times the drummer just couldn't get the toms to speak clearly enough on his 16th note doubles alternating between the kick and floor tom. Added room mic for the space and spread and added close mics for the punch.
3. "Track the band live together." They thought they could nail it. A common thought is that bands will sound better and it will result in more energy in the track. Cue 3 hours of drum editing on a 6 minute song with busy drums and 2 hours of drum and bass editing on the 3 minute song. All guitars are unuseable. The drummer sounded seasick and the guitar/bass tracks were't tight enough. The physical and mental demands of the parts tightly enough for the genre weren't conducive to everyone nailing it all at the same time.
4. "Don't tune vocals." I had a fairly gifted singer in recently doing an acoustic thing. So many people are always saying "make 'em sing it again, don't tune it." I want my records to sound good so I gave it a shot. Well, she just couldn't hit a lower register part. We tried probably 16 times before she resigned to not hitting it and started looking for an alternate vocal line (I already had one in my back pocket). We tried some alternate lines. On pitch? Yep. Did it feel right? Nope. Tuned the low stuff and all the sudden I'm a genius and saved the day.
5. In fact, I tried your "no-compression-in-the-headphones" thing last night. The singer kept holding back on all the intense stuff. They ended up asking me to lower their vocal in their headphones then - without telling me - pullled a headphone half off (so they could still hear themselves) and ruined a number of their takes with some super phasey and super loud (headphones cranked up at their request) bleed. The takes we needed for the emotional crest of the song were in the garbage and the vocalist was dead tired. A vocal session half-ruined by me following your advice. Of course, I could have possibly been doing it wrong. How would I improve the no-compression-in-the-headphones thing? No snark. No attitude. I'd love to find a better method of working. I'm looking at 12db swings in dynamics at the microphone mid-verse.
Don't be so difficult, now. You KNOW I wasn't saying to turn them into literal clones of those bands. But, those are the bands - stylistically - that get pointed at a lot as "steer us in this direction." Your argument for me not doing what I can to make them sound as big and and punchy as those bands is "those bands already exist?" Tell that to the bands that come in. They have 100 different bands on their phones that all sound similar Wage War yet all sound different to them. I'm not interested in telling artists their vision, passion, and/or intention isn't valid.
I'd LOVE to hear your music. This isn't me being snarky or shitty. I'd honestly love to hear it. One of my favorite records lately has been Melanie's "Gather Me." "Brand New Key" is a great song - sure - but "Ring the Living Bell" floored me. Top to bottom, that's an amazing record. Something a fair bit more modern but blew me away in the same way was and album by The Wooden Birds called "Two Matchsticks." I'd also love to hear your noisy stuff. Truly, no snark. I'm not opposed to looking back for inspiration or just good listening. Most of my clients are looking to make modern-sounding stuff so that's what I focus on creating.
...but then there's that dismissive thing again. You say "you probably wouldn't like my music" then imply that your music isn't bad enough for my taste. Man, you can't stop it can you? Why do you think that you have to belittle others whether they deserve it or not? By now I definitely deserve a little of it - I've had some swipes at you in response to what you've said. But even your basic interactions with others - people who have done nothing to provoke you - you jab at, denigrate, dismiss, and posture authority over. Why is that?
johneppstein (and others who've had to witness this - sorry!),
I am trying to connect and interact with people on a human level who do this thing I love. This new world of making music on computers, unfortunately often remotely, with fewer people around makes finding community hard. Add into that my less-than-ideal-location where music isn't pouring from every pore of the city and all the sudden there is very little community to be found.
I come here to chat, bounce ideas back and forth, live vicariously through others who have a much larger gear budget than I, and try to learn from others experiences.
I don't doubt that you have a great deal of experience and an endless number of fantastic stories from your more than 35 years making music. Some of the things you've said on the site are brilliant. Your advice to me on my free-standing angled wall idea was helpful. The manner in which you delivered it - draped in the cloak of superiority - left quite a bit to be desired.
We've been on the wrong foot since we've started interacting. I sincerely apologize for my role in that. I push back against people and I'm aware that sometimes I push too hard. I'm also not solely at fault here.
I don't accept a world that doesn't include assumed mutual respect - even to those who haven't been alive as long as I've been doing something. I apologize for anything I've said that was hurtful or made you feel less-than-respected.