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Post by forgotteng on Jan 12, 2018 21:09:01 GMT -6
Here is today's version of Real Recording Stories for the Simple Man. I was tracking horns for a client today and decided to try a stereo micing technique using my Rode NTR ribbon mics in Blumlein about 4-5 feet away from an alto sax and a trumpet. I got the most natural sound I ever got. You don't hear much of these mics because they are not very sexy, (although I think they look bad ass.) I was blown away. I have a "no control room studio" where the tracking area is on the other side of my monitors and as I was playing the tracks back I had to keep checking if the horn players were still playing because it sounded too real. I fooled myself and couldn't believe it. Fascinating to me because I knew it was a tight schedule and I had about an hour, so not a lot of time to move mics or correct. I spent the night before waking up a number of times planning out my strategy. I also used a pair of Blue Hummingbird mics as close mics that were very uninspiring. I think my placement was bad on them and I was so blown away by the Rode Blumlein that I never took the time to re position the birds. The NTR's were running into my Stam 1073MPA and then into a Vintech CA609 that was just barely catching the edge.
I love having moments of discovery in my craft that are inspiring where you plan 2 techniques and 1 of them blows while the other nails it. It's still magic to me.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 12, 2018 22:10:42 GMT -6
Cool. I think you'll find techniques like Blumlein are the winning aspect, more than the particular mics. Keep doin' it!
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Post by forgotteng on Jan 12, 2018 22:48:34 GMT -6
If this is true than I find it even more fascinating. I mean, I agree with you up to a point and my limited success in this craft is proof to it. I never had the means or access to top shelf gear and I have always had to use average gear and study and practice technique. Although my clients seem to be happy with the results, the more I study the more I recognize the flaws in my own work. At any rate, thanks EmRR, you've given me something to ponder. |
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Post by c0rtland on Jan 12, 2018 23:18:31 GMT -6
I have much less experience than emrr. However when I read your post I was thinking the same thing. All roads lead back to the engineer not just the gear. Technique trumps gear. Player trumps instrument. Ears trump internet. Every. time.
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Post by c0rtland on Jan 12, 2018 23:24:10 GMT -6
Which is good news and bad news. You don't need a million dollars, but there are no shortcuts.
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Post by Vincent R. on Jan 13, 2018 0:48:44 GMT -6
Would love to hear it.
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Post by schmalzy on Jan 13, 2018 2:26:40 GMT -6
Ribbon mics definitely do a thing for horns.
I have a re-ribboned Apex 205 that was PERFECTO for some trumpet on a emo/indie rock record. Place it about 4 feet away, let the trumpeter bleat about for a while, then (nicely) kicked him out of the studio and wrapped up the cabling.
It just worked!
I didn't need the width - the tunes were fairly dense with two rhythm guitar parts, an extra guitar part coming and going section-to-section on every song, bass, drums, lead vocal, plus the trumpet - but I was thinking my two Cascade Fat Heads in Blumlein if I needed stereo image.
Glad you had success with those mics. I've been side-eying them for a while. I just don't need 'em right now and have too much else to grab before I snag more limited-use mics (like ribbons can sometimes be).
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Post by forgotteng on Jan 13, 2018 4:43:15 GMT -6
Ribbon mics definitely do a thing for horns. I have a re-ribboned Apex 205 that was PERFECTO for some trumpet on a emo/indie rock record. Place it about 4 feet away, let the trumpeter bleat about for a while, then (nicely) kicked him out of the studio and wrapped up the cabling. It just worked! I didn't need the width - the tunes were fairly dense with two rhythm guitar parts, an extra guitar part coming and going section-to-section on every song, bass, drums, lead vocal, plus the trumpet - but I was thinking my two Cascade Fat Heads in Blumlein if I needed stereo image. Glad you had success with those mics. I've been side-eying them for a while. I just don't need 'em right now and have too much else to grab before I snag more limited-use mics (like ribbons can sometimes be). I can understand the limited use part of this. I used to think of ribbons as a qwerky option when I wanted an old school kind of vibe and the more I used them the more they started to fit in and they became less limited use and more of a go to. I find for live tracking it's amazing how many times the figure 8 pattern works. One of my interns had a pair of Royer 101's that he left at the studio on long term loan that I loved. When he collected them I missed them and after going back and forth and wrestling with budget issues I picked up 1 NTR. I loved it so much that I added another when I could afford it. I also have a cascade fat head that gets used a lot on guitar amps. |
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Post by forgotteng on Jan 13, 2018 4:49:47 GMT -6
I might try to post something if I get the time. Although now I set the bar high with how impressed I was so expectations can be intimidating. You know how some forums can be. Trolls coming out of the woodwork saying it's the worst sound they ever heard blah blah blah.  |
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Post by nobtwiddler on Jan 13, 2018 7:57:28 GMT -6
I have had the same type of experience the first time I placed a Royer SF-12 stereo ribbon, about 5 feet out in front of a drum kit in my place.
I walked back into the control room while the drummer was playing, and for the first time ever, the sound coming thru the monitors was exactly like the sound I heard while standing in the room!
I was blown away...
I believe EmRR is correct " techniques like Blumlein are the winning aspect" but I also think the "Ribbon" mic is also a beautiful capture tool.
Since that time, I've purchased a few more Royer Stereo ribbons, and use them every session for, Drums, either out in front, as Overheads and or Room mics, Acoustic guitars, Horns, Strings, Piano, Background vocals....etc....
They are amazing mics.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 13, 2018 8:40:27 GMT -6
I might try to post something if I get the time. Although now I set the bar high with how impressed I was so expectations can be intimidating. You know how some forums can be. Trolls coming out of the woodwork saying it's the worst sound they ever heard blah blah blah. Not generally how things go here, that's for sure. |
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Post by EmRR on Jan 13, 2018 8:44:50 GMT -6
Yeah, not at all to minimize the ribbon here, on the contrary, I use a lot of them for this exact thing. I've had Samar MF65's and a custom stereo he built also for a long time, recently added a pair of Sennheiser MKH30 fig8 condensers, and they are very different in outcome, both very good. The ribbons forgive, the MKH does not.
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Post by Vincent R. on Jan 13, 2018 9:17:37 GMT -6
I might try to post something if I get the time. Although now I set the bar high with how impressed I was so expectations can be intimidating. You know how some forums can be. Trolls coming out of the woodwork saying it's the worst sound they ever heard blah blah blah. Not generally how things go here, that's for sure. There is a reason I post so much stuff here and only my YouTube videos on the other site. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 13, 2018 9:19:32 GMT -6
Not generally how things go here, that's for sure. There is a reason I post so much stuff here and only my YouTube videos on the other site. +1 |
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Post by Tbone81 on Jan 14, 2018 12:39:29 GMT -6
I have had the same type of experience the first time I placed a Royer SF-12 stereo ribbon, about 5 feet out in front of a drum kit in my place. I walked back into the control room while the drummer was playing, and for the first time ever, the sound coming thru the monitors was exactly like the sound I heard while standing in the room! I was blown away... I believe EmRR is correct " techniques like Blumlein are the winning aspect" but I also think the "Ribbon" mic is also a beautiful capture tool. Since that time, I've purchased a few more Royer Stereo ribbons, and use them every session for, Drums, either out in front, as Overheads and or Room mics, Acoustic guitars, Horns, Strings, Piano, Background vocals....etc.... They are amazing mics. My favorite OH sound I ever heard was a royer sf12. If I had the money I buy one in a heart beat. |
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Post by Guitar on Jan 14, 2018 18:30:13 GMT -6
I love stereo ribbons on drums, too. Also acoustic guitar has a lot of potential (even though I usually stay mono.)
Cool post! I've only recorded one horn to date, we used a 2247 SE and an M88TG, and either one worked fine in the track. It was a saxophone.
I would love to record a whole section, sometime!
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Post by ericn on Jan 14, 2018 21:39:55 GMT -6
I have had the same type of experience the first time I placed a Royer SF-12 stereo ribbon, about 5 feet out in front of a drum kit in my place. I walked back into the control room while the drummer was playing, and for the first time ever, the sound coming thru the monitors was exactly like the sound I heard while standing in the room! I was blown away... I believe EmRR is correct " techniques like Blumlein are the winning aspect" but I also think the "Ribbon" mic is also a beautiful capture tool. Since that time, I've purchased a few more Royer Stereo ribbons, and use them every session for, Drums, either out in front, as Overheads and or Room mics, Acoustic guitars, Horns, Strings, Piano, Background vocals....etc.... They are amazing mics. Hey Paul was it you who turned me on to Steven Sank Modded Beyer M260's for the RCA Short Ribbon vibe without going broke ? Or was it Silvertone? |
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Post by forgotteng on Jan 15, 2018 11:26:59 GMT -6
Ok, Let's try this out here and see if it works. As you can assume the last track is the Rode NTR stereo blumlein ribbon track. The mono tracks are the close miced Blue Hummingbird microphones. You will of course notice that Trumpet is louder than the sax. I will have to doctor this a bit in the mixdown. At any rate it is what it is and it's here for all your geeky entertainment.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 15, 2018 11:47:34 GMT -6
Wow that ribbon room tone just transports me right down to New Orleans....or something. Very nice!
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Post by quiethouse on Jan 15, 2018 16:18:29 GMT -6
If this is true than I find it even more fascinating. I mean, I agree with you up to a point and my limited success in this craft is proof to it. I never had the means or access to top shelf gear and I have always had to use average gear and study and practice technique. Although my clients seem to be happy with the results, the more I study the more I recognize the flaws in my own work. At any rate, thanks EmRR , you've given me something to ponder. I always call it "utilitarian" instead of average. Just make sure the talent of the player is there. You wouldn't believe how transparent my gear gets when I'm recording talented people. |
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Post by svart on Jan 17, 2018 7:11:40 GMT -6
I find that most of the brass I've recorded has been "learner" caliber horns, which absolutely need something to tame the screeching top end they have. Professional level instruments tend to be much more mild sounding and I've always reached for a well positioned KM mic for those since I'm going to end up boosting the top end of them on the mix anyway..
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Post by forgotteng on Jan 17, 2018 7:41:17 GMT -6
I find that most of the brass I've recorded has been "learner" caliber horns, which absolutely need something to tame the screeching top end they have. Professional level instruments tend to be much more mild sounding and I've always reached for a well positioned KM mic for those since I'm going to end up boosting the top end of them on the mix anyway.. Yea that struggle is real. These guys were good players and it always makes a difference if the player has a handle on their instrument. |
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Post by Vincent R. on Jan 17, 2018 7:59:48 GMT -6
Yeah, I had a similar situation with a string quartet. The second violinist kept squeaking on the high notes. There is only so much you can do to fix that. When I recorded the trumpet on my “Granada” recording I didn’t need to do anything. I set up my Peluso 2247se a few feet away and my player just killed it. He could play circles around what was written.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 17, 2018 8:26:29 GMT -6
Rue the average rockabilly bassist, slap transients 20+dB hotter than the notes. Get a good one, you don't have a problem.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 17, 2018 8:35:45 GMT -6
I know that sound, haha.
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