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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 14, 2018 11:46:57 GMT -6
Here's how I've been doing it...At least in Pro Tools. Open the plugin, click on the double page looking icon (believe it's called "Plugin Automation Enable" and add "Level Rider." Now that parameter should show up when you select "Level Rider" in the track view in the mix window. Click write automation in PTs and choose write mode on the plugin. Play the track back and you should see the automation being written. After it's done, change the plugin to "read" mode. You can then change the automation on rider level to whatever you want.
I could have sworn I've done that before and then copied and pasted the moves in the volume automation - which would allow you to remove the plugin - but it didn't let me yesterday...
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Post by drbill on Jan 14, 2018 11:56:04 GMT -6
Here's how I've been doing it...At least in Pro Tools. Open the plugin, click on the double page looking icon (believe it's called "Plugin Automation Enable" and add "Level Rider." Now that parameter should show up when you select "Level Rider" in the track view in the mix window. Click write automation in PTs and choose write mode on the plugin. Play the track back and you should see the automation being written. After it's done, change the plugin to "read" mode. You can then change the automation on rider level to whatever you want. I could have sworn I've done that before and then copied and pasted the moves in the volume automation - which would allow you to remove the plugin - but it didn't let me yesterday... Ahhhh...I see what you're doing now. Yes, when you open the plugin there's a button at the top called "Auto". Clicking on that opens the plugin automation enable list. Mine does not have "level rider" though. Do you mean "Rider Fader"?
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Post by M57 on Jan 14, 2018 12:06:57 GMT -6
I was just playing with this.. In Logic. Highlight the Region or Regions that you want printed with VR. It doesn't matter if the yellow "recording cycle range band" is on or not. Type: ^B (control B) or pull down File > Bounce > Regions in Place. you should get this.. Select either Leave or Mute depending on what you want Logic to do with your original track and it should create a duplicate track directly below the original that is processed. When I tested it my mono vocal track stayed mono.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 14, 2018 14:03:54 GMT -6
Here's how I've been doing it...At least in Pro Tools. Open the plugin, click on the double page looking icon (believe it's called "Plugin Automation Enable" and add "Level Rider." Now that parameter should show up when you select "Level Rider" in the track view in the mix window. Click write automation in PTs and choose write mode on the plugin. Play the track back and you should see the automation being written. After it's done, change the plugin to "read" mode. You can then change the automation on rider level to whatever you want. I could have sworn I've done that before and then copied and pasted the moves in the volume automation - which would allow you to remove the plugin - but it didn't let me yesterday... Ahhhh...I see what you're doing now. Yes, when you open the plugin there's a button at the top called "Auto". Clicking on that opens the plugin automation enable list. Mine does not have "level rider" though. Do you mean "Rider Fader"? Yes! Sorry...was doing it by memory.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 14, 2018 15:32:03 GMT -6
M57, with the automation operating on the original track and bouncing, wouldn't that just create a new audio track without automation which you'd then have to fine tune?
That's cool, but kind of a workaround, I think there's a way to print the plug-in automation, and then you're free to tweak the automation written in the usual Logic automation mode.
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Post by M57 on Jan 14, 2018 15:39:42 GMT -6
M57, with the automation operating on the original track and bouncing, wouldn't that just create a new audio track without automation which you'd then have to fine tune? Wasn't that the point? Kind of like treat it like clip gain so you can work with a nice even track. I did see automation lanes for all Vocal Rider Functions, I but I wasn't able to get it to write to those lanes - not that I tried that much.. I gave it one pass and got nothing. Probably have to put it in write mode AND press record or something like that..
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 14, 2018 16:45:57 GMT -6
Thanks Mark, I know it can be done, but it's been so long, I don't remember how. It would be cool to simply set the Vocal Rider and say write or read, and then have that automation available to fine tune. It would most likely have dozens of smaller increment changes I probably wouldn't bother to do myself.
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Post by M57 on Jan 14, 2018 17:08:56 GMT -6
Thanks Mark, I know it can be done, but it's been so long, I don't remember how. It would be cool to simply set the Vocal Rider and say write or read, and then have that automation available to fine tune. It would most likely have dozens of smaller increment changes I probably wouldn't bother to do myself. K - just did it.. Put the WR in "Write" mode and in Logic bring up the automation lane on the track for the "Vocal Rider Fader" and put the track in latch mode. Hit play and it should write the automation. Then put everything back into read mode where you can tweak the automation to your heart's content. One thing I noticed is that the VR fader will not go outside of its set range even if the automation you draw asks for it. Of course, you can draw automation lanes for the range too
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Post by drbill on Jan 22, 2018 11:53:36 GMT -6
I've been trying this out on instrumental guitar parts. Mostly melody parts that I need to be present and always "heard", but not sterile and crushed or manipulated feeling.
My conclusions are that it's an amazing tool...but that it eeks the life out of things. (for lack of a better description) I can see using it if you want something to SIT in a mix and not move, but that's kind of anti-musical to me. Musicians move. That's where the emotion lies. At least most of the time for me. I find that I can get closer to where I want things to be with a gentle compressor (like an opto) to shape the line, and then an 1176 to lop off the peaks along with judicious automation. Or sometime vice versa on the compressor order. Vocal Rider works amazingly well, but it's too "obvious" for lack of a better word for me. It doesn't surprise me that it's in widespread use on pop vocals. It's certainly a time saver, but at the expense of the emotion of the music for me. I'll stick mostly to manual fader automation and appropriate levels of compression at this point.
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Post by M57 on Jan 22, 2018 18:04:54 GMT -6
I've been trying this out on instrumental guitar parts. Mostly melody parts that I need to be present and always "heard", but not sterile and crushed or manipulated feeling. My conclusions are that it's an amazing tool...but that it eeks the life out of things. (for lack of a better description) I can see using it if you want something to SIT in a mix and not move, but that's kind of anti-musical to me. Musicians move. That's where the emotion lies. At least most of the time for me. I find that I can get closer to where I want things to be with a gentle compressor (like an opto) to shape the line, and then an 1176 to lop off the peaks along with judicious automation. Or sometime vice versa on the compressor order. Vocal Rider works amazingly well, but it's too "obvious" for lack of a better word for me. It doesn't surprise me that it's in widespread use on pop vocals. It's certainly a time saver, but at the expense of the emotion of the music for me. I'll stick mostly to manual fader automation and appropriate levels of compression at this point. Thanks drbill. I've never thought of it this way - I think I may have given up on this plug for this reason without really understanding why. But the more I think about it, the more I think the problem can be mitigated. - Make the fader reaction time "slow."
- Limit the range that the fader throws itself.
- Automate the range to create the "movement" you speak of.
When I was using it I ended up useing B plus automation, so clearly I was intuitively fighting the issue you describe. But now that I better understand what it is I think I'll revisit this plug. I probably didn't use the slow reaction time. "C" may too time-consuming, but I bet I can put this plug back into my arsenal ..and retain the movement you speak of.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 22, 2018 18:07:32 GMT -6
By "limit the range the fader throws", isn't that boxing it in, wouldn't keeping a sort of wide range be more natural, or am I mistaken?
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Post by M57 on Jan 22, 2018 18:26:52 GMT -6
By "limit the range the fader throws", isn't that boxing it in, wouldn't keeping a sort of wide range be more natural, or am I mistaken? Limiting the range of the fader is like telling the engineer that he's not allowed to ride the fader as much.. Hence, more dynamic movement. E.g, potential more of what the artist was attempting to achieve via mic technique. At least thats the way I'm interpreting the issue.
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 22, 2018 18:35:19 GMT -6
I only let it throw about 2.5db +/-
If your mix is balanced well 2.5db is a mountain in level on the vocal.
It's best to run this in two instances on the vocal. One that is post eq/desser and in fast mode and is keeping the level going into the compressor at a fairly even amount. This equates to a bigger sound and more natural sound because most compressors pinch when they compress and that's something that will make the vocal seem small. The first instance, the best way to determine the amount of throw is to look at the waveform honestly. If your vocal waveform averages pretty solid with some spikes, you would measure how much in db those spikes are and then set your bottom threshold to whatever that is. The top threshold I usually will mimic to whatever I set the bottom to, that will keep the compressor(s) at a steady average and let you use much less compression.
Then, on your last insert, you put another instance, sidechain in everything sans the vocal and only let it throw that 2.5db up or down. The top horizontal slider I usually will set to where the peaks are so the fader ducks but the sidechain will restrict how much it ducks so it's important to have that going.
That's how I use it and you could actually use the clip gain line and go through the vocal and manually do this into the compressor and also use the vocals fader automation instead of the plugin as well, but I find if you get really familiar with this plugin and learn it inside and out you can skip all that and have a really nice vocal level/sound.
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Post by drbill on Jan 22, 2018 19:23:19 GMT -6
I only let it throw about 2.5db +/- If your mix is balanced well 2.5db is a mountain in level on the vocal. It's best to run this in two instances on the vocal. One that is post eq/desser and in fast mode and is keeping the level going into the compressor at a fairly even amount. This equates to a bigger sound and more natural sound because most compressors pinch when they compress and that's something that will make the vocal seem small. The first instance, the best way to determine the amount of throw is to look at the waveform honestly. If your vocal waveform averages pretty solid with some spikes, you would measure how much in db those spikes are and then set your bottom threshold to whatever that is. The top threshold I usually will mimic to whatever I set the bottom to, that will keep the compressor(s) at a steady average and let you use much less compression. Then, on your last insert, you put another instance, sidechain in everything sans the vocal and only let it throw that 2.5db up or down. The top horizontal slider I usually will set to where the peaks are so the fader ducks but the sidechain will restrict how much it ducks so it's important to have that going. That's how I use it and you could actually use the clip gain line and go through the vocal and manually do this into the compressor and also use the vocals fader automation instead of the plugin as well, but I find if you get really familiar with this plugin and learn it inside and out you can skip all that and have a really nice vocal level/sound. I've gone to 1.5 dB even and it was still too "obvious" for me. I can "hear" it do it's thing, and I don't want to. If 2.5dB range is a mountain of level, you're doing radically different style mixes than I generally am. I'm about subtlty, not beating it into submission with a club. There's a time and place for both I suppose, but I'm contrarian to so many of the mix styles I hear in pop/modern country.
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Post by drbill on Jan 22, 2018 19:25:58 GMT -6
I've been trying this out on instrumental guitar parts. Mostly melody parts that I need to be present and always "heard", but not sterile and crushed or manipulated feeling. My conclusions are that it's an amazing tool...but that it eeks the life out of things. (for lack of a better description) I can see using it if you want something to SIT in a mix and not move, but that's kind of anti-musical to me. Musicians move. That's where the emotion lies. At least most of the time for me. I find that I can get closer to where I want things to be with a gentle compressor (like an opto) to shape the line, and then an 1176 to lop off the peaks along with judicious automation. Or sometime vice versa on the compressor order. Vocal Rider works amazingly well, but it's too "obvious" for lack of a better word for me. It doesn't surprise me that it's in widespread use on pop vocals. It's certainly a time saver, but at the expense of the emotion of the music for me. I'll stick mostly to manual fader automation and appropriate levels of compression at this point. Thanks drbill . I've never thought of it this way - I think I may have given up on this plug for this reason without really understanding why. But the more I think about it, the more I think the problem can be mitigated. - Make the fader reaction time "slow."
- Limit the range that the fader throws itself.
- Automate the range to create the "movement" you speak of.
When I was using it I ended up useing B plus automation, so clearly I was intuitively fighting the issue you describe. But now that I better understand what it is I think I'll revisit this plug. I probably didn't use the slow reaction time. "C" may too time-consuming, but I bet I can put this plug back into my arsenal ..and retain the movement you speak of. Thanks for the thoughts M57! I've done both B and C. I will try A - that may help. If I have to automate to "fix" what the plug is doing it ends up sounding really contrived and un-natural and that's a complete waste for me. It's easier to start from scratch and automate by hand and sometimes use clip gain for stuff that's way out. That sounds natural to me. Not like automation trying to fix automation which is what I end up with when using vocal rider. I'm blazing fast with the auto, so that's still probably my best bet.
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Post by mikec on Jan 23, 2018 11:10:44 GMT -6
I only let it throw about 2.5db +/- If your mix is balanced well 2.5db is a mountain in level on the vocal. It's best to run this in two instances on the vocal. One that is post eq/desser and in fast mode and is keeping the level going into the compressor at a fairly even amount. This equates to a bigger sound and more natural sound because most compressors pinch when they compress and that's something that will make the vocal seem small. The first instance, the best way to determine the amount of throw is to look at the waveform honestly. If your vocal waveform averages pretty solid with some spikes, you would measure how much in db those spikes are and then set your bottom threshold to whatever that is. The top threshold I usually will mimic to whatever I set the bottom to, that will keep the compressor(s) at a steady average and let you use much less compression. Then, on your last insert, you put another instance, sidechain in everything sans the vocal and only let it throw that 2.5db up or down. The top horizontal slider I usually will set to where the peaks are so the fader ducks but the sidechain will restrict how much it ducks so it's important to have that going. That's how I use it and you could actually use the clip gain line and go through the vocal and manually do this into the compressor and also use the vocals fader automation instead of the plugin as well, but I find if you get really familiar with this plugin and learn it inside and out you can skip all that and have a really nice vocal level/sound. I just picked up vocal rider based on this post. Looking forward to trying it out with this method. For $24 I figured it was worth a shot.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 23, 2018 11:24:10 GMT -6
jeromemason, when you said, "Then, on your last insert, you put another instance, sidechain in everything sans the vocal and only let it throw that 2.5db up or down", you lost me.
What is the "everything" you're sidechaining except the vocal? We're talking about adjusting levels on a main vocal aren't we?
And this is done last, under all the other plug-ins?
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 23, 2018 11:47:35 GMT -6
Yeah man, just make a mono bus send on every channel, send them all post fader unity to the VR's sidechain minus the vocal and you're good to go. It take's an average level input and controls just how much the fader can actually dip in relation to the inputed audio.
And it's done as the very last plugin on your vocal channel, unless you wanted to put a limiter behind it to catch anything that might just happen to pass through, I've done that a couple of times.
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