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Post by rowmat on Dec 23, 2017 18:53:00 GMT -6
Ok. Dumb question- but I thought the line input ran through the input transformer? I'm wondering about this myself. I see some of y'all stating that there isn't a line input transformer. Are you trying to point out that there isn't a separate (third) transformer or simply that the line input doesn't have a way of running through the lone input transformer? There are plenty of preamps that have a selector switch to allow the line level input to be selected to go through the input transformer. Does this new Warm unit, or the Heritage, not allow this? That's a bummer if you can't. One would need to either see the circuit schematics (unlikely) or open up the case and trace the signal path. The Heritage has no line input transformer (from the published photo showing the internals) and I very much doubt the Warm does either considering their price point. I'm guessing the line inputs will be a fairly straightforward active balanced design.
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Post by Quint on Dec 23, 2017 19:35:02 GMT -6
I'm wondering about this myself. I see some of y'all stating that there isn't a line input transformer. Are you trying to point out that there isn't a separate (third) transformer or simply that the line input doesn't have a way of running through the lone input transformer? There are plenty of preamps that have a selector switch to allow the line level input to be selected to go through the input transformer. Does this new Warm unit, or the Heritage, not allow this? That's a bummer if you can't. One would need to either see the circuit schematics (unlikely) or open up the case and trace the signal path. The Heritage has no line input transformer (from the published photo showing the internals) and I very much doubt the Warm does either considering their price point. I'm guessing the line inputs will be a fairly straightforward active balanced design. I get that adding a third transformer dedicated to the line input would add cost and add to the price point as well as take up more space, but isn't that why so many preamps have a selector switch to allow the mic AND line inputs to pass through a single input transformer (versus two), not to mention the DI? That additional selector switch and circuitry can't add near as much to the price as adding a third transformer. I'm not disagreeing with you that this may be the case with these units but, given the relatively minimal extra amount of cost to implement this, as well as the prevalence of this feature in other preamps and that it IS a feature requested and utilized by many in other preamps, I'm surprised that it wouldn't be a feature on these new Warm and Heritage units. It seems like a glaring oversight to me. As much as I would like to see some of these new Warm and Heritage units in 500 series, I am intrigued enough to consider making room in my racks and buy one of these new 19" units, especially the new Warm 273 with it's extra high frequency points. The (apparent) lack of a line input through a transformer does make me think twice though. Edit: The Heritage line input apparently DOES go through the input transformer. So what about the Warm?
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Post by rowmat on Dec 23, 2017 20:01:18 GMT -6
One would need to either see the circuit schematics (unlikely) or open up the case and trace the signal path. The Heritage has no line input transformer (from the published photo showing the internals) and I very much doubt the Warm does either considering their price point. I'm guessing the line inputs will be a fairly straightforward active balanced design. I get that adding a third transformer dedicated to the line input would add cost and add to the price point as well as take up more space, but isn't that why so many preamps have a selector switch to allow the mic AND line inputs to pass through a single input transformer (versus two), not to mention the DI? That additional selector switch and circuitry can't add near as much to the price as adding a third transformer. I'm not disagreeing with you that this may be the case with these units but, given the relatively minimal extra amount of cost to implement this, as well as the prevalence of this feature in other preamps and that it IS a feature requested and utilized by many in other preamps, I'm surprised that it wouldn't be a feature on these new Warm and Heritage units. It seems like a glaring oversight to me. As much as I would like to see some of these new Warm and Heritage units in 500 series, I am intrigued enough to consider making room in my racks and buy one of these new 19" units, especially the new Warm 273 with it's extra high frequency points. The (apparent) lack of a line input through a transformer does make me think twice though. Edit: The Heritage line input apparently DOES go through the input transformer. So what about the Warm? It appears the Heritage line input uses the mic transformer with a pad. realgearonline.com/post/150067
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Post by Quint on Dec 23, 2017 20:33:05 GMT -6
I get that adding a third transformer dedicated to the line input would add cost and add to the price point as well as take up more space, but isn't that why so many preamps have a selector switch to allow the mic AND line inputs to pass through a single input transformer (versus two), not to mention the DI? That additional selector switch and circuitry can't add near as much to the price as adding a third transformer. I'm not disagreeing with you that this may be the case with these units but, given the relatively minimal extra amount of cost to implement this, as well as the prevalence of this feature in other preamps and that it IS a feature requested and utilized by many in other preamps, I'm surprised that it wouldn't be a feature on these new Warm and Heritage units. It seems like a glaring oversight to me. As much as I would like to see some of these new Warm and Heritage units in 500 series, I am intrigued enough to consider making room in my racks and buy one of these new 19" units, especially the new Warm 273 with it's extra high frequency points. The (apparent) lack of a line input through a transformer does make me think twice though. Edit: The Heritage line input apparently DOES go through the input transformer. So what about the Warm? It appears the Heritage line input uses the mic transformer with a pad. realgearonline.com/post/150067Yeah, I saw that. I wonder if the Warm does? Hopefully so.
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Post by matt@IAA on Dec 23, 2017 20:38:15 GMT -6
Becomes an interesting discussion when you’ve got a clone that’s trying to basically completely emulate an existing product. How far can you get before it’s not a 1073? Because a 1073 has a separate input transformer and doesn’t pad down to use the mic input. More of a philosophical question I guess.
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Post by Quint on Dec 23, 2017 21:06:03 GMT -6
Becomes an interesting discussion when you’ve got a clone that’s trying to basically completely emulate an existing product. How far can you get before it’s not a 1073? Because a 1073 has a separate input transformer and doesn’t pad down to use the mic input. More of a philosophical question I guess. I would agree. But if so many others DO offer a pad into the tranny, it does make you wonder why others don't?
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Post by jayson on Dec 25, 2017 14:12:10 GMT -6
I notice that for the 500 versions of both the 1081 and the 1073, the line input is a completely different kit. Does it make that huge a difference to use a separate tranny over a pad? Does it make an audible difference?
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Post by EmRR on Dec 25, 2017 20:51:18 GMT -6
It should be a very audible reason, and the circuit differences are large. So it's a philosophical choice; be original or change the path.
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Post by miscend on Dec 27, 2017 13:47:15 GMT -6
Anyone else read the info about warm working with carnhill to recreate the original transformer? So then this would be a new carnhill design Several clone manufacturers along with AMS Neve all make similar claims. AMS Neve say the current crop of 'off the shelf' Carnhill transformers are not the same as the original Marinair and St Ives transformers used in the early Neve gear. AMS Neve say that they worked with Carnhill to produce custom transformers that match the original Neve's and they are exclusive to AMS Neve products. But then Heritage Audio also claim they have worked with another UK based transformer maker (OEP) to produce custom transformers that more closely match the original Marinair and St Ives iron than the versions Carnhill were producing. Now you have Warm Audio saying the same thing. So Carnhill (and OEP) are producing several types of transformers that are supposed to be replicas of the orginal Neves's for several different manufacturers that are all claiming to use exclusive custom built transformers based upon the same original! So which 'authentic' clone is the most authentic? Where do AML fit in? Do they use off the shelf parts for their EZ1073.
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Post by Guitar on Dec 27, 2017 14:57:35 GMT -6
This one and the WA-412 are the first Warm products to really get my attention. I guess I'm a multi-channel preamp guy. Or need to be, haha. My drums want things like this.
I'm not thrilled about all the molex stuff but I guess if it holds up over time, who cares. Looks pretty good, otherwise!
I'm also very curious about the Warm WA-47 since it's cheaper than what I paid for my Peluso 2247 SE, used even.
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Post by Quint on Dec 27, 2017 18:06:47 GMT -6
I just got word back from Warm Audio that the line input on these new 1073 clones DOES go through the input transformer. So that's good news.
They also said that the inductors used in the eq circuit are custom made for Warm Audio.
Here's their response:
"The line input does go through the input transformer and is padded to a line input level and impedance.
The inductors are made custom for us."
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Post by wiz on Dec 27, 2017 21:29:06 GMT -6
I just got word back from Warm Audio that the line input on these new 1073 clones DOES go through the input transformer. So that's good news. They also said that the inductors used in the eq circuit are custom made for Warm Audio. Here's their response: "The line input does go through the input transformer and is padded to a line input level and impedance. The inductors are made custom for us." Might they mean... padded to a MIC level input and impedance? cheers Wiz
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Post by Quint on Dec 28, 2017 3:40:46 GMT -6
I just got word back from Warm Audio that the line input on these new 1073 clones DOES go through the input transformer. So that's good news. They also said that the inductors used in the eq circuit are custom made for Warm Audio. Here's their response: "The line input does go through the input transformer and is padded to a line input level and impedance. The inductors are made custom for us." Might they mean... padded to a MIC level input and impedance? cheers Wiz I'm sure that was just a typo on their part. There wouldn't be a need to pad line level to get line level, as you pointed out. I'm just glad the line input goes through the input transformer. Though I have more 500 rack space available than 19" space, it's getting hard to ignore the price of the WA-273. I may have to get one and try it out.
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Post by Ward on Dec 28, 2017 7:57:54 GMT -6
I may have to buy one also.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 28, 2017 8:12:52 GMT -6
ding, ding, ding.. and in this corner we have... I think the most interesting thing at the moment would be a simple shootout between the Warm and the Heritage pre/eq's. They're in the same price class, and both make some claims to higher quality.
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Post by Guitar on Dec 28, 2017 8:51:51 GMT -6
Don't forget the BAE and maybe a Vintech or something, haha, I wonder who can get all of them.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 28, 2017 8:59:14 GMT -6
but those are more than twice as expensive. The question really is how does the Warm or the Heritage stack up against the real thing. They're $799 and $899. When it comes to having $2,000 for 2 channel preamp with EQ, there are lots of options. The RTZ 9762A might be even be an improvement over the original Neve for example.
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Post by Guitar on Dec 28, 2017 9:51:25 GMT -6
Well the AMS Neve you posted is not "the real thing" either, if you want to be completely accurate. It's just another high price clone with a fancy name on it. Somebody's going to have to rent a vintage 1073 or something for this comparison to be really good.
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Post by EmRR on Dec 28, 2017 9:55:18 GMT -6
I just listened to some work I did long ago on that broadcast console with 33114 and 33115, tracked through the bus amps rather than the direct outs from the input modules. EQ's certainly engaged and used. I've not heard anything else like it. Certainly other 'genre' things are 'more similar than' other things, but nothing has been interchangeable.
Did I already say it? I'm sure I did. Padded down so line will go through the mic preamp input transformer is an unintended Neve sound, done solely to sell the idea that it went through an input transformer...the wrong one....with a double trip through the preamp stage. I'm looking at the AML drawing, which I understand to be 'as original', I can't spot the right Neve drawings ATM. Pad it down, transformer then steps it back up +6 or +12, depends on how they have it interact with the input Z switch. The proper line transformer into the 2nd amp stage is 10K:600, quoted as -13dB, and the control range tells us it's immediately padded even more, to counter the gain range of the 2nd stage amp. Which feeds/buffers the EQ, or not.
In short, skipping the line transformer and going with an input pad into the preamp transformer lowers gain more than an original, boosts it back up more, and runs it through an additional amp stage it wouldn't normally see. It allows removal of a transformer, a less complex stepped gain control, and leaves the 2nd stage amp in the gain state for mic input rather than switching to the line stage gain. Personally, I'd rather see original input path, even if it was an IC based balancing solution over the cost of another transformer.
Ponder Neve's reasoning for having a complex dual input, rather than simply padding down line input by, what, 40-50dB(?), to squeeze it back through the same preamp stage. The could have saved a lot of dough, but didn't take that path.
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Post by donr on Dec 28, 2017 10:07:48 GMT -6
Does anyone clone a faithful Neve line input?
Might there be a market for an authentic line only and eq Neve clone? 500 series?
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Post by Guitar on Dec 28, 2017 10:09:49 GMT -6
I'm pretty sure the AMS and the BAE do. Those all seem to have three transformers, 2 inputs, 1 output.
EDIT: Also, the more expensive Vintech channel, and the AML EZ1073 DIY rack kit.
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Post by notneeson on Dec 28, 2017 10:10:58 GMT -6
Does anyone clone a faithful Neve line input? Both the AMS and BAE modules do. I think they have to, since in theory they could be used in an 80 series console as replacements. Right? There are probably others.
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Post by notneeson on Dec 28, 2017 10:11:22 GMT -6
I'm pretty sure the AMS and the BAE do. Those all seem to have three transformers, 2 inputs, 1 output. EDIT: Also, the more expensive Vintech channel, and the AML EZ1073 DIY rack kit. Jinx. Simulpost.
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Post by Vincent R. on Dec 28, 2017 10:53:56 GMT -6
I'm also very curious about the Warm WA-47 since it's cheaper than what I paid for my Peluso 2247 SE, used even. I'm curious about this myself. I had a Peluso 2247 SE for years. I've also used the 2247LE, which has a tad more low end, but similar top end. I got to put my 2247SE next to a Wagner U47W. It was a much brighter microphone than the Wagner. The Wagner sounded like I expected a vintage mic to sound; large, rich, dark, and detailed. I've also compared recordings of the 2247SE made here at my place with recordings of a FLEA 47. The FLEA 47 had a bit more open top end than the Wagner, but not as beefy in the bottom, which actually made it a bit more usable on many sources. Then again, that's probably due the VF14 in the Wagner vs the EF12 in the FLEA. From the clips I've heard and from people I've spoken with who have one, it seems they have embraced the darker, vintage tone with their mic. Meaning it will probably be darker than the 2247 SE. It even sounds darker than the FLEA 47 in the Zenpro Clipalator samples. What I would need to hear is the "larger than life" that the FLEA, Wagner, and Peluso all exhibit. That to me is what makes or breaks a U47 clone. I'd love to get one in my studio to try out, but I'm not going crazy for a U47 at the moment. My BLUE Stage 2 w/ B7 cap does a decent job getting that sound for my needs. www.zenproaudio.com/clipalatorBack to the NEVE CLONES: I'm hoping someone puts the Warm next to a BAE, AMS, or even a Vintech on a few different sources. I really want to hear how they hold up.
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Post by matt@IAA on Dec 28, 2017 10:55:27 GMT -6
I just listened to some work I did long ago on that broadcast console with 33114 and 33115, tracked through the bus amps rather than the direct outs from the input modules. EQ's certainly engaged and used. I've not heard anything else like it. Certainly other 'genre' things are 'more similar than' other things, but nothing has been interchangeable. Did I already say it? I'm sure I did. Padded down so line will go through the mic preamp input transformer is an unintended Neve sound, done solely to sell the idea that it went through an input transformer...the wrong one....with a double trip through the preamp stage. I'm looking at the AML drawing, which I understand to be 'as original', I can't spot the right Neve drawings ATM. Pad it down, transformer then steps it back up +6 or +12, depends on how they have it interact with the input Z switch. The proper line transformer into the 2nd amp stage is 10K:600, quoted as -13dB, and the control range tells us it's immediately padded even more, to counter the gain range of the 2nd stage amp. Which feeds/buffers the EQ, or not. In short, skipping the line transformer and going with an input pad into the preamp transformer lowers gain more than an original, boosts it back up more, and runs it through an additional amp stage it wouldn't normally see. It allows removal of a transformer, a less complex stepped gain control, and leaves the 2nd stage amp in the gain state for mic input rather than switching to the line stage gain. Personally, I'd rather see original input path, even if it was an IC based balancing solution over the cost of another transformer. Ponder Neve's reasoning for having a complex dual input, rather than simply padding down line input by, what, 40-50dB(?), to squeeze it back through the same preamp stage. The could have saved a lot of dough, but didn't take that path. If I understand correctly, the Neve varies gain by changing the input to a fixed gainstage, versus varying the feedback resistor on an opamp. And, IIRC, the original 1073 modules used a different area of the input attenuator for line vs mic signals, so likely a different amount of resistance there altogether. I agree with you that padding the line down to go through the mic pre is more "sonically egregious" than on a different type of amplifier, because you're altering the gain structure in a significant way.
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