|
|
Post by cowboycoalminer on Jan 21, 2014 8:14:45 GMT -6
JK before you pop for a 121 I think I'd buy a 57 and put it on the grill cloth in the center of the cone. That will for sure yield a good sound. Might be good enough for you. I like it.
Thanks Matt. I'll check it out.
|
|
|
|
Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 21, 2014 8:21:03 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Jan 21, 2014 8:50:11 GMT -6
JK before you pop for a 121 I think I'd buy a 57 and put it on the grill cloth in the center of the cone. That will for sure yield a good sound. Might be good enough for you. I like it. Thanks Matt. I'll check it out. Yeah - that's what I'm gonna do... |
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Jan 21, 2014 9:18:48 GMT -6
Wonder how the Royer 101 sounds? $799 On it's bright side, t's a little bit darker than the "bright side" of a 121 but not quite as dark as the 121's "dark side". Just FYI, The "dark side" of a R121 is the one with the logo badge on it. If you want definition out of a Royer 121, face the badge outwards! |
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Jan 21, 2014 9:32:40 GMT -6
An excellent point. You need three microphones to record guitar amps (usually using 2 at a time) An SM57, a Senn 421 and a Royer 121. I've got a 2x12 cab that I really love. It's a stereo unit that I got for giving guitar lessons, an amp head plugged into each side. But of course, it can be used mono, which is how I would like to try to record it. It's an over-sized Avatar G212 Signature cabinet with two different speakers, a Celestion Vintage 30 and a Celestion G12H30 70th Anniversary Special. If used in mono, how would you mic this cabinet up? A couple of mics for the whole cabinet, or a couple of mics for each speaker? And what would be the best mic placement? You can assume that 2 of each of the mics you mentioned are available. Fantastic question! I am actually quite familiar with that cabinet with those exact speakers in it too. In my experience, the best sound you can get out of the cabinet is with a 57 and an R121. Mic the vintage 30 (usually on the left) with the 57, aimed straight in about 1" away from the edge of the dust cap... or about 4" from the outside edge of the speaker. It should be between 1" and 4" off the speaker (2.5 to 10 cm). Mic the G12H30 with the Royer 121 with the logo facing outwards, aimed at the center of the dust cap (also the center of the whole loudspeaker apparatus) and about 6" to a 1' (15cm to 30cm) away. If you want extra "snarl" out of your recording, replace the Royer with a Sennheiser 421 (or even a 441 or 609/906) and position it like the 57 is. In your mix situation, you will likely have the 57 on "0" and the R121 on about "-15" if you record both with gain parity. Which brings to the next point... which preamps work best with these mics and this cabinet? I've got 35 preamps/channel strips. Neve, Avalon, Focusrite, Grace, API, Drawmer etc etc... and the best I have found are the API. They just "pull" the sound of a speaker together in conjunction with the microphone. Use the pad, make sure you don't hit the Royer with phantom power though - even though it's not supposed to hurt it like it would with an old RCA ribbon, I've had a Royer "go to sleep" for few hours after I've accidentally left the phantom power on it. Next, what else do you need to do once you've done that? LA3a compression baby!! It is to a guitar amp what an LA2a or other tube opto is to a vocal. It just works. Every time. Never let anyone down. |
|
|
|
Post by watchtower on Jan 21, 2014 12:45:45 GMT -6
JK before you pop for a 121 I think I'd buy a 57 and put it on the grill cloth in the center of the cone. That will for sure yield a good sound. Might be good enough for you. I like it. Thanks Matt. I'll check it out. I would pop that sm57 a little bit off center. Like right where the dustcap and cone meet. Less fizz/treble that way. I have a R101 and R121 shootout available if anyone is interested. Granted, it's on a high gain amp sound, so maybe it wont be useful for you. I find the R121 has more of a sheen in the upper treble, but overall is smoother. It just sounds more "professional" (if that means anything to you) and polished. The R101 has a metallic grainyness in the upper mids in comparison. Of course, they sound way closer to each other than either does to an SM57. |
|
|
|
Post by LesC on Jan 21, 2014 15:04:53 GMT -6
Fantastic question! I am actually quite familiar with that cabinet with those exact speakers in it too. In my experience, the best sound you can get out of the cabinet is with a 57 and an R121. Mic the vintage 30 (usually on the left) with the 57, aimed straight in about 1" away from the edge of the dust cap... or about 4" from the outside edge of the speaker. It should be between 1" and 4" off the speaker (2.5 to 10 cm). Mic the G12H30 with the Royer 121 with the logo facing outwards, aimed at the center of the dust cap (also the center of the whole loudspeaker apparatus) and about 6" to a 1' (15cm to 30cm) away. If you want extra "snarl" out of your recording, replace the Royer with a Sennheiser 421 (or even a 441 or 609/906) and position it like the 57 is. In your mix situation, you will likely have the 57 on "0" and the R121 on about "-15" if you record both with gain parity. Which brings to the next point... which preamps work best with these mics and this cabinet? I've got 35 preamps/channel strips. Neve, Avalon, Focusrite, Grace, API, Drawmer etc etc... and the best I have found are the API. They just "pull" the sound of a speaker together in conjunction with the microphone. Use the pad, make sure you don't hit the Royer with phantom power though - even though it's not supposed to hurt it like it would with an old RCA ribbon, I've had a Royer "go to sleep" for few hours after I've accidentally left the phantom power on it. Next, what else do you need to do once you've done that? LA3a compression baby!! It is to a guitar amp what an LA2a or other tube opto is to a vocal. It just works. Every time. Never let anyone down. Holy cow, what a fantastic answer, another one for the soon-to-be-made "Studio Techniques" subforum! I happen to like snarl, as some of you have noted, I'm a fairly snarly guy. So I might start with the 421, nothing to do with the fact that it's $1,000 cheaper than the R121. Instead of 35 pres, I've got 3: Drawmer 1960 (which I'm considering selling), 2 Warm Audio TB12's, and the RME UFX built-ins. I'm going to try the Drawmer and the Warm (which should be more API-like). Depending on the results, I may decide to keep the Drawmer. I have no illusions about ever being in the same room as an LA3a, but I'll try the UAD version. Again Ward, thank you so much! |
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Jan 21, 2014 15:37:36 GMT -6
If there is ONE Drawmer worth owning, it is the 1960. You can do an awful lot with that tube pre/compressor. Especially the compressor side of it.
And your Tone Beast is capable of getting "API-ish"... so that might be your starting point. X18, Nickel, Clean.
|
|
|
|
Post by popmann on Jan 21, 2014 16:34:54 GMT -6
Before I start rambling about the panned back view...the backside of Royer is more fragile than an OLD ribbon. What he did, effectively was put all the strength on the front to handle the SPLs and left the back weak and easy to damage. BAD idea putting it near a loud amp for a few DB more highs. Now, if you're gonna play super quiet, fine...but, with the front side PROPERLY positioned about 12-18" in front of the amp into a Millenia and 88.2....I have never had to bump highs. I'd venture if someone is, they're loading it down with a vintage style mic preamp and/or putting it too close. It's proximity effect (sub 250hz) is frigging HUGE...get it away from the amp and the thing is LINEAR down to 50hz, which you amp better not be putting out much of...last thing you need is to pay to reribbon your Royer to gain a few DB of highs. This is the one thing I didn't really want to get into when buying an amp and trying to mic it. I really want to have one mic that just works...So, am I gonna have to spring for a 121? That AEA N22 sure looks interesting to me too... You're overthinking this, IMO. You don't own a dynamic. Right? You should own a nice LDD in a home studio for a number of reasons, but if you need to call it just for amps...fine...an Sm7 does better on amps, and the mid bump will sound more like a "57 deluxe"-giving you two flavors....but, a 421 or RE20 will suffice with less accuracy in response (big 2k boost and dip below on the 421 and 4k dip on the re20**). A 58 will be fine, too, but you're not after fine. Point is--every home studio should own a nice (and standard) dynamic mic...and whichever one you own will be fine here. When you get it...you experiment to find the sweet spot on the ONE speaker...mark it if you want, but likely varying gain may make it move.  You ever wonder what the cabs with duct tape or marker "L" on them are? Drop the mic there. Set the preamp level and record. This is actually one of those pieces I could teach a monkey or even a songwriter to do in 30min. You LDC MIGHT yield a nicer track (than the dynamics) when you are playing with no dirt at all. Buy a dynamic. If your gear pimp can't hand you a re20 and sm7 for a weekend, call Blackbird, because they can. I don't want to quote prices for them...but, it won't be expensive unless something's changed. Tell them you want an sm7B....with the B...because they DO have the originals, too, and while I find them functionally interchangeable, they are a little different. **remember me saying if your voice is troublesome in the upper mids to try an re20? This is where double duty of dynamics comes in. I'd prefer the Sm7 on amps AND voices, but it's got a pretty healthy upper mid bump, so if that's an issue, it won't be for you. Neither will a U67. Or U87. Or 4050. Or...well, you would get the 414eb around here. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2014 16:36:32 GMT -6
Dude. Find a way to keep both. We'll be samers!
|
|
|
|
Post by watchtower on Jan 21, 2014 17:02:14 GMT -6
Hey ward, you don't find phase issue when you blend a 6" away R-121 with a 1" away SM57? I know I did in the past. I had to back the SM57 up to where the Royer was to get things right.
Also, popmann is right. The rear of the R-121 is more sensitive and is specifically not recommended for close-miking guitar amps in the manual.
|
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Jan 21, 2014 17:58:48 GMT -6
Has anyone tried the shinybox w/lundahl tranny and 1.8m ribbon? A lot cheaper than the 121(I really want to try a 121 though)
|
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Jan 21, 2014 18:39:12 GMT -6
I'm gonna try this cheap R144 after dinner.
|
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Jan 21, 2014 18:53:52 GMT -6
I'm gonna try this cheap R144 after dinner. Don't expect too much, that ribbon is likely 6 microns thick, anything over 2 is a fail IMO |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Jan 21, 2014 18:56:49 GMT -6
Nerd
|
|
|
|
Post by tasteliketape on Jan 21, 2014 19:32:35 GMT -6
Samson vr88 is a good cheap ribbon if you can find one. I was told the guy from miktek had somthing to do with the devolpment of it when he worked for samson.
i just found a nos on ebay jmo
|
|
|
|
Post by henge on Jan 21, 2014 19:35:33 GMT -6
Two words... Mo Ney And it's bank rolling my Sta-Level Sell it! ;-) |
|
|
|
Post by matt on Jan 21, 2014 19:35:43 GMT -6
And there's this one: AEA N22Looks very interesting. |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Jan 21, 2014 20:51:58 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Jan 21, 2014 21:32:19 GMT -6
What about an AEA R84?
|
|
|
|
Post by matt on Jan 21, 2014 21:55:45 GMT -6
Very impressive sounding, even with the limitation of youtube audio. Might have to try an N22 out. |
|
|
|
Post by cowboycoalminer on Jan 21, 2014 22:28:47 GMT -6
I've got a pair and I love them. Not an all a rounder on amps though IMO. Stellar mics on many different voices however. |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Jan 23, 2014 9:38:21 GMT -6
Just picked up a 57 for $40!
|
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Jan 23, 2014 14:32:08 GMT -6
Just picked up a 57 for $40! Don't just close mic, Experiment with distant micing that 57 a foot or more, I've gotten great sounds that way, have fun! |
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Jan 23, 2014 18:32:43 GMT -6
My cheap 57 didn't come with a clip...so I just improvised...Honestly, even this was better than I was hoping for! Even like this, it's a very usable tone believe it or not...I have to say, though. The Kemper is pretty damn convincing. It holds up well. Attachment Deleted |
|
You ever wonder what the cabs with duct tape or marker "L" on them are? Drop the mic there. Set the preamp level and record. This is actually one of those pieces I could teach a monkey or even a songwriter to do in 30min. You LDC MIGHT yield a nicer track (than the dynamics) when you are playing with no dirt at all. 
