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Post by Quint on May 11, 2018 9:20:36 GMT -6
I have to say - if I had a competing product that I knew was better (not saying it is btw) I would put them side by side all day long. I'd agree with you if things were done transparently. I don't have a problem with direct and honest comparisons. It's the insinuation in the video that comes off as shitty. As if tons of other products don't ALSO have internal power supplies. Heritage is trying to subtly imply in that video that the increase in noise must be at least partially and specifically due to the Warm. Heritage knows what they're doing and so does Chad. It all just seems unnecessary. I say let your product speak for itself instead of trying to create false equivalencies about your competition. Where was the demonstration of what happens when you set the Heritage external supply on top of the Heritage rack unit?
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,936
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Post by ericn on May 11, 2018 12:35:37 GMT -6
I have to say - if I had a competing product that I knew was better (not saying it is btw) I would put them side by side all day long. I'd agree with you if things were done transparently. I don't have a problem with direct and honest comparisons. It's the insinuation in the video that comes off as shitty. As if tons of other products don't ALSO have internal power supplies. Heritage is trying to subtly imply in that video that the increase in noise must be at least partially and specifically due to the Warm. Heritage knows what they're doing and so does Chad. It all just seems unnecessary. I say let your product speak for itself instead of trying to create false equivalencies. Where was the demonstration of what happens when you set the Heritage external supply on top of the Heritage rack unit? I think the choice of a competitively priced unit is valid, but again they are justifying there design choices, Warm can just as easily produce a video showing why they think internal is better. In most cases in products I know of at this point if you got enough drinks in the guys behind the product you would find the biggest factors in the choice of an out board PSU were cost, and rating agency certification! Funny how so many people didn’t like the line lump on the Warm WA76, bet that had a bit to do with their Choice this time around. Damned if you do damned if you don’t. Again I see the theory behind an outboard PSU, but in use I’ll bet it is negated. BradD was going to mount the outboard PSU for his new CADAC in the rack with his out board had to explain to him that it would cause noise in the outboard, now consider how much of your out board is connected via unbalanced inserts and all the outboard PSU’s in your rack. In the real world how much are those outboard PSU’s helping or hurting?
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Post by sozocaps on May 11, 2018 12:53:18 GMT -6
The Heritage Audio OST-10 uses linear power regulators on each slot
This is what I have on my Anniversary 1073's and a few JR EQ and 73's seems great...
Had the Lindell 10 (version 1) was horrible Im sure MK2 is much better.... ( I have the Lindell 6 slot )
J
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Post by cdkelly on May 12, 2018 21:33:58 GMT -6
Is this a Warm unit on top of the Heritage? If so, what he does is very cheesy. He could as well have used one of the external supplies he's using on his other products. Disappointing promotion if you ask me... Well Chad (cdkelly) never misses an opportunity to bash Warm, so I'm not surprised be posted that video, flawed or "cheesy" as it may be. That video actually kind of makes me think twice about buying Heritage products. Definitely not a fan of their approach on this. Quint, I didn't say anything whatsoever to 'bash warm'; I added a relevant video I found to the conversation and nothing more, being a product developer myself. Far from 'never missing an opportunity', I frankly rarely get on GS or RGO at all, let alone to grind any person axe. I stay too preoccupied making microphones and working on records to get involved much in online stuff; but I do stand behind and use the Elite Series 1073 in my work (along with my own handcrafted 24 channels of API). Conversely, I have PM'd you at least once to talk and try to figure out what the heck your beef is and get past it (and heard nothing back in return but 'crickets', and Quint, that offer still stands...), though you do rarely miss an opportunity to troll what I post on this subject... As for why that particular piece was used in the demonstration opposed to another 'line lump' by HA as someone else commented, one reason is that it wouldn't do anything. The HA supplies are switched mode (high frequency) supplies and do not produce 60 cycle hum or buzz. The video was demonstrating the noise floor difference between an internal, linear supply vs an external, switching one in that type of circuit. They grabbed the closest thing that fit the bill. The video actually does demonstrate a good bit more class than how I feel that it is coming off to people here (at least IMO), because I suspect they were nice enough not to show the direct comparison of self-noise between the two units themselves (like input to output measurement of unit A vs unit B, that sort of thing), and there is a noticeable difference that I do know of. I can't be certain but I think they were trying to demonstrate that in a more roundabout way that was a little less blunt than literally saying 'here is the noise of unit A, here is the noise of unit B'; but I understand that may not be how some people take it. They were trying to be not so direct as that, and I think they should get some credit for that. I get how it may come off; maybe it would have been best to actually be straightforward with it and show the noise levels of each on their own... but I know their intention was to not be so direct.
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Post by cdkelly on May 12, 2018 22:35:39 GMT -6
I'd agree with you if things were done transparently. I don't have a problem with direct and honest comparisons. It's the insinuation in the video that comes off as shitty. As if tons of other products don't ALSO have internal power supplies. Heritage is trying to subtly imply in that video that the increase in noise must be at least partially and specifically due to the Warm. Heritage knows what they're doing and so does Chad. It all just seems unnecessary. I say let your product speak for itself instead of trying to create false equivalencies. Where was the demonstration of what happens when you set the Heritage external supply on top of the Heritage rack unit? I think the choice of a competitively priced unit is valid, but again they are justifying there design choices, Warm can just as easily produce a video showing why they think internal is better. In most cases in products I know of at this point if you got enough drinks in the guys behind the product you would find the biggest factors in the choice of an out board PSU were cost, and rating agency certification! Funny how so many people didn’t like the line lump on the Warm WA76, bet that had a bit to do with their Choice this time around. Damned if you do damned if you don’t. Again I see the theory behind an outboard PSU, but in use I’ll bet it is negated. BradD was going to mount the outboard PSU for his new CADAC in the rack with his out board had to explain to him that it would cause noise in the outboard, now consider how much of your out board is connected via unbalanced inserts and all the outboard PSU’s in your rack. In the real world how much are those outboard PSU’s helping or hurting? Exactly, I think they could and should if they felt the facts were on their side to do so or if they felt it was worth doing, etc... I think they spend their marketing dollars a bit differently than that and don't really get into the technical very much; and that's OK as well. But just to sort of address the point that some have made here about the video being 'below the belt' in some way or what not, I've seen a few comments to that effect; I can vouch that it really isn't. I mean, I've worked in this industry almost my whole adult life (for more than 20 years) and I can say for sure, as we all know, that this is a competitive business. A manufacturer has every obligation to (firstly) try their very best to make the better product and (secondly) to make the case to the public that their product is the better product, by whatever means that entails. I've seen how brutal this can get in my earlier career, and believe me... this stuff here is not in the least. It's actually being done quite gingerly. I can remember just some years ago working for a company who had a product, and a distributor friend of mine (who carried a competing product) showing me a flier printed out which graphed and charted the negatives about my product and other similar ones, and distributed these fliers at their table. I thought it was fine, we still had drinks after the show, and are great friends. That is called doing one's job. That is part of your job as a manufacturer, distributor, etc., to maintain your brand(s). Again, a manufacturer has an absolute obligation to try to make the best product, and then to make the case to the public that they have made the better product; i.e better than their competitors... and to spell that out in clear detail. If someone thinks that kind of thing is out of bounds, I just sure hope they never try to start their own company in a highly competitive industry... they're going to have a really tough time. For example, right now I handcraft boutique gear reproductions for direct clients. I don't have much of a public presence anymore due to the nature of working with people one on one to make what they want exactly, most of the communication is direct.... but if anyone thinks I don't gladly discuss extensively why my work is better and more affordable than whomever I'm competing with? of course I do!... absolutely, in clear detail and on the record I will say what things I'm doing differently and why I think they are superior choices. and of course the hard part is that it has to be true, since just talk alone is easy. But guys, that's really the nature of the business.
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Post by Quint on May 12, 2018 23:32:58 GMT -6
Well Chad (cdkelly) never misses an opportunity to bash Warm, so I'm not surprised be posted that video, flawed or "cheesy" as it may be. That video actually kind of makes me think twice about buying Heritage products. Definitely not a fan of their approach on this. Quint, I didn't say anything whatsoever to 'bash warm'; I added a relevant video I found to the conversation and nothing more, being a product developer myself. Far from 'never missing an opportunity', I frankly rarely get on GS or RGO at all, let alone to grind any person axe. I stay too preoccupied making microphones and working on records to get involved much in online stuff; but I do stand behind and use the Elite Series 1073 in my work (along with my own handcrafted 24 channels of API). Conversely, I have PM'd you at least once to talk and try to figure out what the heck your beef is and get past it (and heard nothing back in return but 'crickets', and Quint, that offer still stands...), though you do rarely miss an opportunity to troll what I post on this subject... As for why that particular piece was used in the demonstration opposed to another 'line lump' by HA as someone else commented, one reason is that it wouldn't do anything. The HA supplies are switched mode (high frequency) supplies and do not produce 60 cycle hum or buzz. The video was demonstrating the noise floor difference between an internal, linear supply vs an external, switching one in that type of circuit. They grabbed the closest thing that fit the bill. The video actually does demonstrate a good bit more class than how I feel that it is coming off to people here (at least IMO), because I suspect they were nice enough not to show the direct comparison of self-noise between the two units themselves (like input to output measurement of unit A vs unit B, that sort of thing), and there is a noticeable difference that I do know of. I can't be certain but I think they were trying to demonstrate that in a more roundabout way that was a little less blunt than literally saying 'here is the noise of unit A, here is the noise of unit B'; but I understand that may not be how some people take it. They were trying to be not so direct as that, and I think they should get some credit for that. I get how it may come off; maybe it would have been best to actually be straightforward with it and show the noise levels of each on their own... but I know their intention was to not be so direct. Every post you've made here on RGO in the last four months has been about one of two topics, the HA73 or comparisons between the HA73 and the WA73, and those comparisons have involved repeated digs at the "supposed" inferiority of the WA73 to the HA73 here and particularly on GS. The nature of those comparisons and the singular post topic seem to indicate that you are promoting Heritage in some fashion and/or have some reason to slag Warm. I don't have a problem with people promoting a product, for which they are being compensated (or otherwise), but I do have a problem with it if it's done in a non-transparent fashion. I also have a problem with it if comparisons to competing products attempt to create false equivalencies by making claims that the WA73 is on the same level as the GAP 73 offering (even though they don't use the same quality of parts) or subtly implying that the extra noise in that video is at least partially and specifically due to the WA73 sitting on top and not just linear supplies in general. I mean, they could have made the same comparison using one of their own units with a linear supply and shown the same thing. The use of the Warm was for one reason and one reason only. I have no dog in this hunt. I don't own products from either company and I actually just purchased two of the new Stam 73s because of apparent shortcomings in the WA73 AND HA73. I just don't like seeing this sort of promotion/denigration. Promotion should be transparent and products should speak for themselves without the need to make false or misleading statements about the competition.
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Post by wiz on May 13, 2018 1:32:30 GMT -6
When you put gear in racks you should put them in one at a time...power them up and see if you have noise issues. Then move them, interchange them to get the best you can. Often it’s a placement issue, caused exactly by what that video shows...
Do this and you will get as quiet system as you can...that and cable placement and dressing.
I also use wood racks. That way you can custom place each unit vertically for ventilation/noise issues.
Cheers
Wiz
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Post by Johnkenn on May 13, 2018 7:42:25 GMT -6
Well Chad (cdkelly) never misses an opportunity to bash Warm, so I'm not surprised be posted that video, flawed or "cheesy" as it may be. That video actually kind of makes me think twice about buying Heritage products. Definitely not a fan of their approach on this. I frankly rarely get on GS or RGO at all, let alone to grind any person axe. I stay too preoccupied making microphones and working on records to get involved much in online stuff 78.media.tumblr.com/cbdc91841381d6aec48d9f8943bc5a4a/tumblr_n40kuzM7L31smcbm7o1_250.gif
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Post by kcatthedog on May 13, 2018 7:47:44 GMT -6
I guess that is the thing about tacky is that it is about poor appearances ? To the extent to which it seems deliberate doesn’t seem to be about fairness or integrity between competitors: just doubly tacky?
There are many ways to fairly/legitimately measure differences in gear and that video doesn’t seem to pass the test?
As was said above, where was the control factor for the biases of the test methodology, i.e., drop another piece gear in the same place or interchange the original pieces, then what happens to the measurements , then draw conclusions?
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Post by cdkelly on May 13, 2018 13:05:12 GMT -6
Quint, I didn't say anything whatsoever to 'bash warm'; I added a relevant video I found to the conversation and nothing more, being a product developer myself. Far from 'never missing an opportunity', I frankly rarely get on GS or RGO at all, let alone to grind any person axe. I stay too preoccupied making microphones and working on records to get involved much in online stuff; but I do stand behind and use the Elite Series 1073 in my work (along with my own handcrafted 24 channels of API). Conversely, I have PM'd you at least once to talk and try to figure out what the heck your beef is and get past it (and heard nothing back in return but 'crickets', and Quint, that offer still stands...), though you do rarely miss an opportunity to troll what I post on this subject... As for why that particular piece was used in the demonstration opposed to another 'line lump' by HA as someone else commented, one reason is that it wouldn't do anything. The HA supplies are switched mode (high frequency) supplies and do not produce 60 cycle hum or buzz. The video was demonstrating the noise floor difference between an internal, linear supply vs an external, switching one in that type of circuit. They grabbed the closest thing that fit the bill. The video actually does demonstrate a good bit more class than how I feel that it is coming off to people here (at least IMO), because I suspect they were nice enough not to show the direct comparison of self-noise between the two units themselves (like input to output measurement of unit A vs unit B, that sort of thing), and there is a noticeable difference that I do know of. I can't be certain but I think they were trying to demonstrate that in a more roundabout way that was a little less blunt than literally saying 'here is the noise of unit A, here is the noise of unit B'; but I understand that may not be how some people take it. They were trying to be not so direct as that, and I think they should get some credit for that. I get how it may come off; maybe it would have been best to actually be straightforward with it and show the noise levels of each on their own... but I know their intention was to not be so direct. Every post you've made here on RGO in the last four months has been about one of two topics, the HA73 or comparisons between the HA73 and the WA73, and those comparisons have involved repeated digs at the "supposed" inferiority of the WA73 to the HA73 here and particularly on GS. The nature of those comparisons and the singular post topic seem to indicate that you are promoting Heritage in some fashion and/or have some reason to slag Warm. I don't have a problem with people promoting a product, for which they are being compensated (or otherwise), but I do have a problem with it if it's done in a non-transparent fashion. I also have a problem with it if comparisons to competing products attempt to create false equivalencies by making claims that the WA73 is on the same level as the GAP 73 offering (even though they don't use the same quality of parts) or subtly implying that the extra noise in that video is at least partially and specifically due to the WA73 sitting on top and not just linear supplies in general. I mean, they could have made the same comparison using one of their own units with a linear supply and shown the same thing. The use of the Warm was for one reason and one reason only. I have no dog in this hunt. I don't own products from either company and I actually just purchased two of the new Stam 73s because of apparent shortcomings in the WA73 AND HA73. I just don't like seeing this sort of promotion/denigration. Promotion should be transparent and products should speak for themselves without the need to make false or misleading statements about the competition. Quint, I can respect what you're saying. Let's let it pass, OK, and again you can message me privately if you ever wished to. I also am friends with Van Der Stam and I know he makes some great products. I almost did some work for the company after I moved back to Baton Rouge; but quickly got too tied up doing some things here on my own (I split my time between making handcrafted gear and working on records, and am having too much fun to dive back into the 9-5 world just yet). I also do not really have a dog in this hunt. I know both companies, obviously I know one a bit more intimately from my history; I just have an 'informed opinion' about certain things, OK, and we can leave it at that. Here's what I do know about the video and noise test, OK. The higher self noise that they measure when they kick on the competing unit 'is' more or less the self noise of that competing unit during normal operation, if you were to do the test a bit more directly and hook the two of them up side by side and take an input-to-output measurement of each with all the levels set the same and the EQ engaged/set flat. Most of that extra noise in the competing unit is PSU-derived. Maybe I shouldn't be saying this but I know that's actually the case and the real point of the test. To their credit, they were trying to make that point for the viewer without being so direct as to state it. Maybe that wasn't the best way, you may be right. But I know it's a valid point to make.... if something has a self noise of say, 10db higher; then you really do lose that much in usable dynamic range... so it's a real issue. Can both products still produce great results in the right skilled hands? Yes, of course, and they both do... but that's the point that was trying to be conveyed.
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Post by kcatthedog on May 13, 2018 13:46:58 GMT -6
It would be best to see an independent third party test with controls, as with all due respect, it seems a little niave to think a competitor would plan and hold a test to show off another product’s strengths. Without controls and more rigorous Methodology tests(?) like this are at best suspect. I honestly laughed the first time I saw the video pop up on FB. I found this funny as I remember all the hullabaloo over warm using an outer psu and because I thought the conjectured point of a 73 clone was to replicate the original? Perhaps, the heritage is a great sonic clone, but isn’t it ironic how much its build actually differs from the original ? Be great to see Rupert himself bench all the wannabes I’d pay money for that report !
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Post by drbill on May 13, 2018 14:21:43 GMT -6
I don't have either, and probably will never own either, so no axes to grind here.
I thought the video was OK - informative even, and yes, what he was discussing in the video IS a problem with gear. i.e.: noise radiating from toroidal power supplies. Both internally and to external pieces of gear. I didn't even notice the unit on top was a Warm until Warm proponents started complaining. I think the power supply design of these two products IS a purchasing consideration.
You see these types of competitive product eval's all the time. Turn on TV, watch Ford trucks pull more than Chevy's or Ram's. That's all good. But I'd still buy a Ram.
It's just business. Choose the one you like for whatever reason you like and get back to making music.
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Post by subspace on May 13, 2018 15:16:58 GMT -6
Wow, that Heritage really picks up induced noise in impressive fashion, no wonder it has an outboard PSU. Unfortunately my racks are fairly tight with a wide range of manufacturer's gear, all with internal PSUs, so that makes their unit a non-starter for my rack, but kudos to them for pointing out the issue.
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Post by cdkelly on May 13, 2018 16:20:49 GMT -6
Wow, that Heritage really picks up induced noise in impressive fashion, no wonder it has an outboard PSU. Unfortunately my racks are fairly tight with a wide range of manufacturer's gear, all with internal PSUs, so that makes their unit a non-starter for my rack, but kudos to them for pointing out the issue. Subspace, its nothing specific to the HA product, it's something specific to any Neve 1073's with Carnhills. Keep in mind that circuitry derives from the large format console era where a power supply was located in the machine room. Carnhill output transformers aren't shielded, Carnhill input transformer's shielding is historically fairly minimal (folded steel usually opposed to drawn mu metal), because that's all that was necessary for their original configuration and, love it or hate it, it's become tradition at this point. messing with those things does actually change the sound because the shielding can interract with the magnetic flux of the transformer. Beyond that, transistors and polystyrene capacitors and other things are just prone to EMI. It's just physics. That being said, some toroids obviously put out alot more EMI than others. Some have a shield wrap or potting layer that helps alot, some are just well made and tuned well. I don't think the implication is that 'any' internal PSU would do that; but that the one they put it near wasn't a particularly nice one, and I think that's partly the point. I'm not trying to change your mind on anything; but just to be sure your opinion is properly informed with some design history...
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Post by Quint on May 13, 2018 19:08:01 GMT -6
Wow, that Heritage really picks up induced noise in impressive fashion, no wonder it has an outboard PSU. Unfortunately my racks are fairly tight with a wide range of manufacturer's gear, all with internal PSUs, so that makes their unit a non-starter for my rack, but kudos to them for pointing out the issue. Subspace, its nothing specific to the HA product, it's something specific to any Neve 1073's with Carnhills. Keep in mind that circuitry derives from the large format console era where a power supply was located in the machine room. Carnhill output transformers aren't shielded, Carnhill input transformer's shielding is historically fairly minimal (folded steel usually opposed to drawn mu metal), because that's all that was necessary for their original configuration and, love it or hate it, it's become tradition at this point. messing with those things does actually change the sound because the shielding can interract with the magnetic flux of the transformer. Beyond that, transistors and polystyrene capacitors and other things are just prone to EMI. It's just physics. That being said, some toroids obviously put out alot more EMI than others. Some have a shield wrap or potting layer that helps alot, some are just well made and tuned well. I don't think the implication is that 'any' internal PSU would do that; but that the one they put it near wasn't a particularly nice one, and I think that's partly the point. I'm not trying to change your mind on anything; but just to be sure your opinion is properly informed with some design history... But here we go again. You and Heritage are attempting to present conclusions which are derived from an incomplete argument. 1. If the intent of the video was to demonstrate that, for self noise internal to 1073 type circuits specifically, it's better to have an external PSU powering said circuit rather than an internal one, that video didn't address that. It only showed the level of noise that the Heritage allows through its chassis and the degree to which the Heritage circuit is susceptible to induced noise from outside the chassis. A proper and defensible demonstration would isolate it down to one variable and show how the location of the PSU actually powering the Heritage makes a difference in internal noise. A more difficult demonstration to show? Yes, but it's the only way to do it properly. As is, no conclusions about the Warm versus the Heritage can be made from that video about this specific topic. 2. If the purpose of the video was, at least in part, to slag the choice by Warm to locate the PSU internally, which I beleive it was, then you would need to do a similar demonstration with the Warm as described above for the Heritage. It's also worth mentioning that the Warm has an internal shield specifically placed and designed to separate it's internal psu from the rest of the circuit. So equating the noise the Warm psu induced on the Heritage to the noise the Warm PSU would induce on it's own circuit is an apples to oranges comparison and means nothing. As is, no conclusions about the Warm versus the Heritage can be made from that video about this specific topic. 3. If the purpose of the video was to demonstrate the effect of induced noise upon the Heritage from an external transformer in another unit, that could have been demonstrated by the use of ANY nearby piece of audio equipment with an internal PSU, including one of the Heritage external linear PSUs. If the expectation of a piece of professional gear is that it's built to perform regardless of other pieces of gear placed around it, wouldn't that more so be an implication of the Heritage's inability to sheild itself against external induced noise rather than the supposed higher than normal level of noise the Warm is inducing in the Heritage? I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but if that is the case, then why does Heritage get to call the Warm inferior because of noise it may be inducing on the Heritage below it, yet Heritage then gets to turn around and use external PSUs (with even less shielding) which may very well induce noise on other pieces of nearby equipment, which is the exact thing you (and Heritage in that video) are dogging the Warm about? As is, no conclusions about the Warm versus the Heritage can be made from that video about this specific topic. 4. How does the increase in noise induced on the Heritage by the Warm compare to the other way around or to noise which other equipment may induce on the Heritage or which the Heritage may induce on other equipment. Without such additional comparisons, no conclusion of quality of the Warm versus the Heritage can be made. 5. If the placement of the PSU internally is automatically such a bad idea for 1073 circuits then why has Heritage done that exact thing with some of its own non-Elite products like it's table top units? 6. You say the torroidal transformer in the Warm is inferior to others because of the noise it induces. Please provide data which shows that it is inferior relative to other power transformers and how the noise which it may induce on nearby units is any worse than the noise which power transformers in other units may also induce on nearby units. These are all questions which would need to be addressed to make any sort of reasonable and defensible conclusions about the relative quality and location of the PSU in the Warm and Heritage units. That video doesn't prove squat. And why do you keep promoting the Heritage over the Warm so hard if you apparently don't even work for Heritage? That seems a bit odd?
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Post by Johnkenn on May 13, 2018 19:32:48 GMT -6
I totally get what you’re saying, Quint. And I don’t think you’re wrong...but this just feels soooo gearslutian...can we just move on?
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Post by Quint on May 13, 2018 19:48:01 GMT -6
I totally get what you’re saying, Quint. And I don’t think you’re wrong...but this just feels soooo gearslutian...can we just move on? Hey, I hear you on that man. It's not my desire to go "full on GS" here. It just seems readily apparent that there is some sort of agenda going on here, and those sorts of thing are as "gearslutian" as they get. I don't have a problem moving on, I just think it's important to point out when someone is unfairly criticizing their competition based on misleading info. I'd think that's the exact sort of thing we don't want on RGO.
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Post by cdkelly on May 13, 2018 19:55:43 GMT -6
Subspace, its nothing specific to the HA product, it's something specific to any Neve 1073's with Carnhills. Keep in mind that circuitry derives from the large format console era where a power supply was located in the machine room. Carnhill output transformers aren't shielded, Carnhill input transformer's shielding is historically fairly minimal (folded steel usually opposed to drawn mu metal), because that's all that was necessary for their original configuration and, love it or hate it, it's become tradition at this point. messing with those things does actually change the sound because the shielding can interract with the magnetic flux of the transformer. Beyond that, transistors and polystyrene capacitors and other things are just prone to EMI. It's just physics. That being said, some toroids obviously put out alot more EMI than others. Some have a shield wrap or potting layer that helps alot, some are just well made and tuned well. I don't think the implication is that 'any' internal PSU would do that; but that the one they put it near wasn't a particularly nice one, and I think that's partly the point. I'm not trying to change your mind on anything; but just to be sure your opinion is properly informed with some design history... But here we go again. You and Heritage are attempting to present conclusions which are derived from an incomplete argument. 1. If the intent of the video was to demonstrate that, for self noise internal to 1073 type circuits specifically, it's better to have an external PSU powering said circuit rather than an internal one, that video didn't address that. It only showed the level of noise that the Heritage allows through its chassis and the degree to which the Heritage circuit is susceptible to induced noise from outside the chassis. A proper and defensible demonstration would isolate it down to one variable and show how the location of the PSU actually powering the Heritage makes a difference in internal noise. A more difficult demonstration to show? Yes, but it's the only way to do it properly. As is, no conclusions about the Warm versus the Heritage can be made from that video about this specific topic. 2. If the purpose of the video was, at least in part, to slag the choice by Warm to locate the PSU internally, which I beleive it was, then you would need to do a similar demonstration with the Warm as described above for the Heritage. It's also worth mentioning that the Warm has an internal shield specifically placed and designed to separate it's internal psu from the rest of the circuit. So equating the noise the Warm psu induced on the Heritage to the noise the Warm PSU would induce on it's own circuit is an apples to oranges comparison and means nothing. As is, no conclusions about the Warm versus the Heritage can be made from that video about this specific topic. 3. If the purpose of the video was to demonstrate the effect of induced noise upon the Heritage from an external transformer in another unit, that could have been demonstrated by the use of ANY nearby piece of audio equipment with an internal PSU, including one of the Heritage external linear PSUs. If the expectation of a piece of professional gear is that it's built to perform regardless of other pieces of gear placed around it, wouldn't that more so be an implication of the Heritage's inability to sheild itself against external induced noise rather than the supposed higher than normal level of noise the Warm is inducing in the Heritage? I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but if that is the case, then why does Heritage get to call the Warm inferior because of noise it may be inducing on the Heritage below it, yet Heritage then gets to turn around and use external PSUs (with even less shielding) which may very well induce noise on other pieces of nearby equipment, which is the exact thing you (and Heritage in that video) are dogging the Warm about? As is, no conclusions about the Warm versus the Heritage can be made from that video about this specific topic. 4. How does the increase in noise induced on the Heritage by the Warm compare to the other way around or to noise which other equipment may induce on the Heritage or which the Heritage may induce on other equipment. Without such additional comparisons, no conclusion of quality of the Warm versus the Heritage can be made. 5. If the placement of the PSU internally is automatically such a bad idea for 1073 circuits then why has Heritage done that exact thing with some of its own non-Elite products like it's table top units? 6. You say the torroidal transformer in the Warm is inferior to others because of the noise it induces. Please provide data which shows that it is inferior relative to other power transformers and how the noise which it may induce on nearby units is any worse than the noise which power transformers in other units may also induce on nearby units. These are all questions which would need to be addressed to make any sort of reasonable and defensible conclusions about the relative quality and location of the PSU in the Warm and Heritage units. That video doesn't prove squat. And why do you keep promoting the Heritage over the Warm so hard if you apparently don't even work for Heritage? That seems a bit odd? Quint, you do bring up some good points and I do have more insight into much of that if you're interested to hear my opinions, but I fear the administrator is right that we've gone down the rabbit hole enough on the subject. If you'd like to PM me, I'm happy to continue the discussion with you. I have actually developed power supplies and worked on getting the hum of linear power supplies out of the audio path, and I can tell you more on that subject if interested. Just one quick point though just to re-iterate, a switching PSU doesn't produce 60 cycle hum... so setting that particular (Elite) PSU line lump next to a piece of audio gear won't do anything (in the audio range anyway). I mentioned that before, but just wanted to re-iterate. Not saying one is better than the other; they both have their caveats. Typically, a linear, particularly toroidal, transformer produces the dreaded 60 (or 50) cycle hum, and there are a specific but limited 'bag of tricks' that you can employ to deal with that. Been there and done it, for 3 companies. Also, the higher end Heritage rackmount 1u preamps I've seen do also have an external PSU for similar reasons (albeit a nicer one). Their table-top pre may have an internal PSU; but being 2u in height there is room to do some of the 'tricks' I mention, like putting the toroid on its side and tuning it, etc. Haven't seen inside it; but just postulating.
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Post by shoe on May 13, 2018 22:33:16 GMT -6
I suppose I can try this noise test myself in a week or so when I bring my warm back home to its spot in exactly this orientation in my rack abovw the heritage (I am currently using the warm for some recordings "in the field" of my dad's house where he's hosting a bunch of musicians this week). Of course mine is a stereo unit, so i am not sure if the 2U format makes a difference to how far away the PT is from the bottom of the chassis. I can't recall off the top of my head if it just sits on the bottom, but I would think so.
In case anyone is wondering why I chose the Warm over the Heritage for this recording, there are several answers.
1. The Warm I have is a stereo unit with internal psu and one cable coming out, so the format is more convenient for a setup "in the field".
2. The Warm's external hardware is more solid, so I am not worried about anyone accidentally breaking a knob or switch when I am not looking.
3. The Warm's high pass filter is great and very useful because it does not need the rest of the EQ circuit to be engaged to have it on (and I don't plan to use the rest of the EQ for this live recording situation).
4. The Warm's LED indicators are very handy for setting levels quickly in a hectic environment.
5. Also if something does accidentally clip the preamp itself, the Warm is a bit more forgiving and gradual in its onset of hard clipping. That's a benefit in a live situation where unexpected peaks can happen.
Also, someone was mentioning the GAP Pre73 earlier and, honestly, if you upgrade the transformers in there it does sound quite good and as good or better than the warm or heritage in some situations. It's also quite solidly made in terms of external hardware. I would just reccomend having zenpro audio do their upgrade and give the unit a once over (in my case they also upgraded the power filter caps to higher quality and that allows it to handle bass very well now while it would somwtimes sag out, before).
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Post by schmalzy on May 14, 2018 11:19:59 GMT -6
I don't have either, and probably will never own either, so no axes to grind here. I thought the video was OK - informative even, and yes, what he was discussing in the video IS a problem with gear. i.e.: noise radiating from toroidal power supplies. Both internally and to external pieces of gear. I didn't even notice the unit on top was a Warm until Warm proponents started complaining. I think the power supply design of these two products IS a purchasing consideration. You see these types of competitive product eval's all the time. Turn on TV, watch Ford trucks pull more than Chevy's or Ram's. That's all good. But I'd still buy a Ram. Came in here to say two things and a better engineer said it for me already. 1. I didn't even know it was a Warm product. Had it not been mentioned, I'd have not thought much of it. I guess I'm not a shit-stirrer in that way. 2. My day job (which I will be leaving in a few months) is in advertising. This is what competing makers do in a competitive marketplace: tell you the things they do better/differently than others. I thought it was even a little classy he put the tape over the logos and didn't say the preamp-equivalent of "his truck out-trucked Chevy and Ram trucks four years in a truck row."
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Post by kcatthedog on May 15, 2018 10:31:09 GMT -6
That’s another way of saying people don’t expect a competitor’s test to be objective: expect it to be self serving.
All the more reason, as I said originally, to put more weight behind independent 3rd party tests with controlled methodology, to remove introduced bias and achieve less contestable results .
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Post by shoe on May 15, 2018 16:40:23 GMT -6
Wanted to point out that it's not necessarily the case that, if your pick up an adjacent unit's transformer hum, that same hum is picked up within the adjacent unit itself. The placement of the signal transformers in each unit plays a significant role and so does the way the transformer is shielded within that unit.
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Post by Guitar on May 15, 2018 16:55:18 GMT -6
drbill the ford vs chevy analogy is perfect. Just picture the bumper sticker "Heritage" Calvin pissing all over "Warm" Ford or whatever it is. I can't stand this stuff and I hope it dies a slow death.
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Post by notneeson on May 15, 2018 17:58:50 GMT -6
drbill the ford vs chevy analogy is perfect. Just picture the bumper sticker "Heritage" Calvin pissing all over "Warm" Ford or whatever it is. I can't stand this stuff and I hope it dies a slow death. To quote my friend Ricardo: “Calvin pissing on Calvin pissing.”
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Post by cdkelly on Jun 29, 2018 2:28:31 GMT -6
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