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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2018 8:27:48 GMT -6
Nice, thanks for the info ..
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Post by svart on Apr 23, 2018 8:36:51 GMT -6
Eric was wondering if the PSU for the Elite was causing it to "run out of gas" compared to his Dan A. Neve clones with original iron. Oh I see. The answer is that if an external power unit "runs out of gas" while still being spec'd properly for the total current, that usually means multiple things.. Either the internal bulk capacitance is too low to support steps in total demand, the local part decoupling is poor, the power traces are too narrow/thin to handle the current of the design, and/or the connecting cable's conductors are too small for the application.. Or all of the above in some cases.. It's rare that an external supply is itself the culprit if it's rated properly for the draw but still can't seem to supply during high demand situations.
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 23, 2018 9:10:20 GMT -6
That is the interesting thing about the sonics of this design and build, is that they are actually very very different than the original ?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 23, 2018 9:19:56 GMT -6
Eric was wondering if the PSU for the Elite was causing it to "run out of gas" compared to his Dan A. Neve clones with original iron. Oh I see. The answer is that if an external power unit "runs out of gas" while still being spec'd properly for the total current, that usually means multiple things.. Either the internal bulk capacitance is too low to support steps in total demand, the local part decoupling is poor, the power traces are too narrow/thin to handle the current of the design, and/or the connecting cable's conductors are too small for the application.. Or all of the above in some cases.. It's rare that an external supply is itself the culprit if it's rated properly for the draw but still can't seem to supply during high demand situations. Chris I just recently discovered the home where I did the comparison seams to be suffering from sags, their Google fiber system has been cutting in and out and I know from my a Google fiber Eng, that this a common occurrence on sagging lines as well as the transformer outside has a constant buzz. Next time I do session over there I’m going to take a Furman voltage regulator a cord rigged to see the current draw of the Heritage with a VOM and another VOM rigged to measure voltage. Like I said if I wasn’t gain matching for a fair fight a simple change in gain structure and the problem was solved. Since moving to KC I haven’t needed the voltage regulators that were a must in Galveston, glad I kept one!
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 23, 2018 19:10:22 GMT -6
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Post by cdkelly on Apr 23, 2018 19:43:42 GMT -6
Oh I see. The answer is that if an external power unit "runs out of gas" while still being spec'd properly for the total current, that usually means multiple things.. Either the internal bulk capacitance is too low to support steps in total demand, the local part decoupling is poor, the power traces are too narrow/thin to handle the current of the design, and/or the connecting cable's conductors are too small for the application.. Or all of the above in some cases.. It's rare that an external supply is itself the culprit if it's rated properly for the draw but still can't seem to supply during high demand situations. Chris I just recently discovered the home where I did the comparison seams to be suffering from sags, their Google fiber system has been cutting in and out and I know from my a Google fiber Eng, that this a common occurrence on sagging lines as well as the transformer outside has a constant buzz. Next time I do session over there I’m going to take a Furman voltage regulator a cord rigged to see the current draw of the Heritage with a VOM and another VOM rigged to measure voltage. Like I said if I wasn’t gain matching for a fair fight a simple change in gain structure and the problem was solved. Since moving to KC I haven’t needed the voltage regulators that were a must in Galveston, glad I kept one! so there actually may be no problem with the Heritage?
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Post by shoe on Apr 23, 2018 20:18:49 GMT -6
Chris I just recently discovered the home where I did the comparison seams to be suffering from sags, their Google fiber system has been cutting in and out and I know from my a Google fiber Eng, that this a common occurrence on sagging lines as well as the transformer outside has a constant buzz. Next time I do session over there I’m going to take a Furman voltage regulator a cord rigged to see the current draw of the Heritage with a VOM and another VOM rigged to measure voltage. Like I said if I wasn’t gain matching for a fair fight a simple change in gain structure and the problem was solved. Since moving to KC I haven’t needed the voltage regulators that were a must in Galveston, glad I kept one! so there actually may be no problem with the Heritage? I have no problems with mine. It just sounds like a fuzz pedal if you crank the gain to max.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 25, 2018 10:22:43 GMT -6
Chris I just recently discovered the home where I did the comparison seams to be suffering from sags, their Google fiber system has been cutting in and out and I know from my a Google fiber Eng, that this a common occurrence on sagging lines as well as the transformer outside has a constant buzz. Next time I do session over there I’m going to take a Furman voltage regulator a cord rigged to see the current draw of the Heritage with a VOM and another VOM rigged to measure voltage. Like I said if I wasn’t gain matching for a fair fight a simple change in gain structure and the problem was solved. Since moving to KC I haven’t needed the voltage regulators that were a must in Galveston, glad I kept one! so there actually may be no problem with the Heritage? In general no, but I do expect a PSU to be able to handle a situation every other piece I have taken over there so I will try to upgrade the PSU simply because it’s the obvious place they went cheap and an upgrade anybody can do ! After living on an island for 8 years where a 130v was normal and having to have voltage regulators on everything, I expect better than average from a PSU, but like I said simple easy upgrade! That said it is a great inexpensive way to get the Neve tone and if gain staged correctly a bargain, as someone else mentioned it goes into fuzz tone distortion a easier than most I have heard, but again if you pay attention to gain stageing not a big deal! Local MI shop just signed up as a Warm dealer so we are going to see what Neve flavors we can come up with and I’m going to convince BradD to bring his Flea 47 for a shootout when Warm fills its back orders!
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Post by shoe on Apr 26, 2018 22:24:24 GMT -6
So, I got in a transformer-based supply today for the Heritage (had to really dig around for an appropriate one on ebay) and this time there IS a quite significant difference in sound between the stock switching supply and the transformer-based supply. I am finding the transformer supply seems to allow a mellower clipping character if the preamp goes into overdrive. It does not seem to break up as abruptly and I find I much prefer the sound of it. The most notable difference seems to be on transients, as evidenced by summing together two out of phase tracks using the two supplies. On note attacks for the bass track I ran through the line in, there was a negligible difference at settings that didn't clip at all (in my test, that was at 50 gain and below with the signal I sent through), a noticeable difference at 55, where some louder transients were harsher on the switching supply, but most were similar, and very notable differences at 60 and above (which is where I was getting into serious clipping territory with this clip).
SO, essentially the more gain I added, the harsher the switching supply tracks sounded to me compared to the transformer supply. At max gain, both were still in fuzz bass mode, of course, but the transformer supply had a warmer fuzz tone while the switching one was more "zippy" and bright with very abrupt transients.
Interestingly, the transformer supply is actually a 250mA supply (as opposed to the stock 520mA), but as noted earlier in the thread, the consumption for these units is listed around 90mA, so either supply should be able to provide enough current.
I am going to hypothesize that what might be different between the two is that the transformer supply probably is able to keep up with current demand changes on transients and the transistors get a more consistent voltage, thus maintaining a higher headroom and not clipping as much on transients. Meanwhile, if the switching supplies are a bit slow to respond to that demand, the voltage could be sagging for a few ms and transients may be clipping under the momentarily reduced headroom, thus causing them to generate more harmonic content and sound brighter/harsher. Notably, the Warm Audio version of this same preamp also uses a toroidal transformer supply and people have commented that its transients also seem mellower as compared to the Heritage.
Now which is preferable for your source material is up to you. I am personally finding the transformer supply more pleasant.
I can post the comparison clips later when I have a chance.
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Post by yotonic on Apr 26, 2018 22:51:29 GMT -6
This is great! All Heritage gear should go to eleven!
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Post by m03 on Apr 26, 2018 23:26:28 GMT -6
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Post by cdkelly on May 5, 2018 23:17:29 GMT -6
So, I got in a transformer-based supply today for the Heritage (had to really dig around for an appropriate one on ebay) and this time there IS a quite significant difference in sound between the stock switching supply and the transformer-based supply. I am finding the transformer supply seems to allow a mellower clipping character if the preamp goes into overdrive. It does not seem to break up as abruptly and I find I much prefer the sound of it. The most notable difference seems to be on transients, as evidenced by summing together two out of phase tracks using the two supplies. On note attacks for the bass track I ran through the line in, there was a negligible difference at settings that didn't clip at all (in my test, that was at 50 gain and below with the signal I sent through), a noticeable difference at 55, where some louder transients were harsher on the switching supply, but most were similar, and very notable differences at 60 and above (which is where I was getting into serious clipping territory with this clip). SO, essentially the more gain I added, the harsher the switching supply tracks sounded to me compared to the transformer supply. At max gain, both were still in fuzz bass mode, of course, but the transformer supply had a warmer fuzz tone while the switching one was more "zippy" and bright with very abrupt transients. Interestingly, the transformer supply is actually a 250mA supply (as opposed to the stock 520mA), but as noted earlier in the thread, the consumption for these units is listed around 90mA, so either supply should be able to provide enough current. I am going to hypothesize that what might be different between the two is that the transformer supply probably is able to keep up with current demand changes on transients and the transistors get a more consistent voltage, thus maintaining a higher headroom and not clipping as much on transients. Meanwhile, if the switching supplies are a bit slow to respond to that demand, the voltage could be sagging for a few ms and transients may be clipping under the momentarily reduced headroom, thus causing them to generate more harmonic content and sound brighter/harsher. Notably, the Warm Audio version of this same preamp also uses a toroidal transformer supply and people have commented that its transients also seem mellower as compared to the Heritage. Now which is preferable for your source material is up to you. I am personally finding the transformer supply more pleasant. I can post the comparison clips later when I have a chance. Shoe, I hate to be a devil's advocate here but it is also possible that the switching mode (and higher mA rated) stock supply is drawing out transients faster and therefore sounding 'edgier' and producing more distortion. It would be my understanding that a 'slower' power supply would round out transients more and not respond fast enough to fully draw out a transient peak. This would produce a form of compression and may very well prevent peaks and clip distortion by virtue of that... but this does not mean that PSU would be better... it would be technically worse. and you may be able to turn the gain up higher with the aftermarket supply purely because of a sluggish response/rounding off of peaks. I am not saying this is bad, as the charm found in many pieces of gear is to be found in it doing that; but it would still stand that the stock supply is the one that is 'correct', and delivering transient and microdynamic detail, whether the source is harsh or not. I've never heard of a switching supply referred to as 'slow'. Just thinking aloud here, I'll be curious what else you find...
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Post by cdkelly on May 6, 2018 19:54:46 GMT -6
this sort of addresses the internal vs external argument and I think its really well done.
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Post by hasbeen on May 10, 2018 12:29:35 GMT -6
this sort of addresses the internal vs external argument and I think its really well done. I would like to see what happens if he inserts a sheet of MuMetal between units.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 10, 2018 12:55:50 GMT -6
The biggest thing designers forget is that in practice these out board PSU’s have to be located somewhere and useally end up next to some piece of gear, this pretty much negates the whole theory of remote power supplies Now I do buy into most of the benefits in theory but who has the space for a rack just for remote PSU’s?
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 10, 2018 13:06:55 GMT -6
I wonder if the PSU's interact with each other if placed nearby.
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Post by hasbeen on May 10, 2018 13:14:40 GMT -6
I really want to check the Heritage HA73EQ next to my AML ez1073.
Please anyone in RI or Boston city or South Shore let me know.
Thanks
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Post by Johnkenn on May 10, 2018 14:52:55 GMT -6
I’ve actually got mine for sale in the classifieds if anyone is interested. This thing is a hellacious mic pre for what you pay. The CAPI SumBus is calling my name and I need funding...and just like I already knew before I bought this, I hardly ever use outboard EQ during Mix time...just too lazy. So - last in, first out.
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Post by pope on May 11, 2018 2:56:45 GMT -6
Is this a Warm unit on top of the Heritage? If so, what he does is very cheesy. He could as well have used one of the external supplies he's using on his other products. Disappointing promotion if you ask me...
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Post by Guitar on May 11, 2018 7:14:01 GMT -6
Is this a Warm unit on top of the Heritage? If so, what he does is very cheesy. He could as well have used one of the external supplies he's using on his other products. Disappointing promotion if you ask me... I didn't like that either. Not impressed.
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Post by pope on May 11, 2018 7:18:37 GMT -6
"Cheap"
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Post by Quint on May 11, 2018 8:26:00 GMT -6
Is this a Warm unit on top of the Heritage? If so, what he does is very cheesy. He could as well have used one of the external supplies he's using on his other products. Disappointing promotion if you ask me... Well Chad (cdkelly) never misses an opportunity to bash Warm, so I'm not surprised be posted that video, flawed or "cheesy" as it may be. That video actually kind of makes me think twice about buying Heritage products. Definitely not a fan of their approach on this.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 11, 2018 8:30:48 GMT -6
Though, I don't disagree at all with what he says and shows.
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Post by Quint on May 11, 2018 8:43:49 GMT -6
Though, I don't disagree at all with what he says and shows. It just could have been done more scientifically and less promotion"y". The placement of the Warm unit next to the Heritage was not needed to get the point across.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 11, 2018 8:55:46 GMT -6
I have to say - if I had a competing product that I knew was better (not saying it is btw) I would put them side by side all day long.
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