ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,921
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Post by ericn on Apr 17, 2018 7:45:47 GMT -6
I thought consensus was for hi fi that linear psu Is better ? I wouldn't say that... though people said that quite a bit in the early years of those new supplies back when switching supplies were mostly seen on computer case PSU's and other I.T. gear and therefore associated with being 'cheap'. if folks say that now it would only be for the same reason that people might say that tube gear or tape machines were the gold standard, just because they have become 'entrenched' technologies that any new technology would be held against... but otherwise not really true. There are certainly some great sounding pieces of gear with switched-mode PSU's, like all Burl DACs and ADCs, and many pieces of Dangerous Music gear, and the StudioLive console I'm monitoring through at the moment and (I'll venture to guess) the monitors I have, etc. As an electronics tech, I noticed an interesting thing with many switched-mode transformers is that there was a center tap which terminated to ground on those transformers and sometimes contaminated the chassis/ground plane with a very low measurable voltage... I've never seen this cause an audio issue but is something I did notice on some unrelated equipment I was measuring well over ten years ago. Of course the obvious advantages to them is that they produce less heat, take up less space, weigh less, and of course they don't have the dreaded 60 cycle hum (or 50hz) that people find so aggravating with traditional supplies... that being said, I guess in theory they do produce a frequency that has just been shifted up above the audible range but is still present. A good well designed Switcher is as good as Well designed linear and a crappy linear is as crappy as a crappy switcher. The thing is it’s easy to buy a generic cheap UL/CA approved switcher that was not intended for audio and check all the boxes that are important to the marketing guy. Hell I was just talking to a guy from one of the largest pro audio vendors who said their marketing guys were in love with the new line warts because they were so small! Dan Kennedy at Great River is considered to be one of the worlds top Switching PSU guys in the world, and were talking some very interesting non audio stuff ( medical and stuff where if I told you they would have to kill me) ! In many cases mid grade over spec’ed switchers have been made useable with additional filtering but that kills the cost saving and can improve linears as well. Now granted this is single piece but just to give you an Idea of what a decent off the shelf Linear costs a 48V 1 amp Accopian gold that would be roughly twice the current as the stock PSU $215, I think because the guys at Electronics Supply Co like me and love the kid I get it for under $200! Rift now I’m trying to find out how much current the 48v rail of the Trimmed down DDA 3.5 amp Console supply that powers my CAPI 500 rack can deliver to see if It’s worth building a new harness. Yes Chad I’m nuts but hey after I bought the big Midas supply it was just sitting there ! No Vincent if it works I’m not sending it with the Heritage! The one thing I will say, when it comes to big power amps and Lowend linear still kicks the Switchers every time it’s all about Current, you have to at least double the switchers power to deliver the real ERth shaking LF, but then I have this thing for amps that dim the lights and plug into dryer sockets!
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Post by notneeson on Apr 18, 2018 12:01:31 GMT -6
Curious what Joe Malone of JLM would say. His 1290 is highly regarded and surely uses his own supply.
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 18, 2018 12:04:26 GMT -6
let's ask Wiz ?
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Post by cdkelly on Apr 18, 2018 13:38:02 GMT -6
I do know from the guys that its a Carnhill input and output, yep. I think they know they can't skimp there. Interesting on the PSU. I wondered about the little line lump supply but so far I haven't noticed any performance issues. I'll check that out though. Did you say you had to run it hard for a long time to get that effect, like with a hot input signal? I can test that out when time permits the next time I have a long session... One point I'd make though, since someone mentioned this nudges them toward the WA version, is that just because a PSU is internalized and linear does not mean its actually any nicer. From what I can tell from photos, the WA-73 supplies (post the small corner-mounted toroid transformer) are extremely spartan... looks like just 2 generic caps and a regulator on a PCB card no larger than a matchbook. I honestly couldn't tell you which company's PSU outperforms the other; but just to be cautious about the idea that internal vs external or linear vs switching gives a clear indicator... it's a bit more nuanced than that, of course, as I'm sure most of us know... It's something I'd actually be interested to test or compare. Yep only when pushed for a while, like I said though if the Dan Alexander next to it I noticed it, if I didn’t have the DA probably wouldn’t have noticed or cared I would have just gain matched. The 2 techs I talked to thought 25w was a little under powered for a 1073. Finding it hard to find a nice 48v PSU short of PowerOne or Accopian! Well, I had a long recording session last night with the Heritage still on kick drum, and I have been analyzing the wave forms from the beginning of the night to the end and I haven't noticed any inconsistency yet, the 'running out of gas' phenomenon... it seems to be holding up solid so far. Now this is with a dynamic microphone, so there's no +48v draw. I will continue to research it but so far it seems to be holding true for me, anyway...
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 18, 2018 13:42:47 GMT -6
So, if the a psu is sagging or running out of juice, you would see that in a constant wave form being diminished in height, changed in shape ?
I have been sorting out a sag problem with my modded delta and its psu, so other than things not powering up at all, have been curious how else it can negatively affect what you are doing ?
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Post by cdkelly on Apr 19, 2018 14:25:42 GMT -6
So, if the a psu is sagging or running out of juice, you would see that in a constant wave form being diminished in height, changed in shape ? I have been sorting out a sag problem with my modded delta and its psu, so other than things not powering up at all, have been curious how else it can negatively affect what you are doing ? That's a good question, I was just listening and I didn't hear anything diminish in sonic scope
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Post by shoe on Apr 20, 2018 23:17:44 GMT -6
So, I was curious about this and got a similar switching supply that's 2.5A. I do think I hear a bit more clarity in the low end when using this supply, but on max gain it's still essentially a fuzz pedal if you plug a bass into the DI and it still sags on attacks. It could just be psychological, but I do feel like the unit sounds slightly smoother with the bigger supply. Now I'm curious how a transformer supply would fare...
EDIT: It turns out this was variation between two Heritage units. The same unit showed zero benefit from changing the power supply and summed to silence when flipping the phase on the resulting two tracks processed material. Do not bother.
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Post by Guitar on Apr 21, 2018 8:26:21 GMT -6
Those are similar to what I heard when I upgraded the PSU on my Audient iD22. Clarity in lows and a tiny bit of smoothness, maybe, like you said.
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Post by matt@IAA on Apr 21, 2018 11:51:01 GMT -6
I don’t know for sure but I doubt Eric means running out of gas over time, but rather when you push it hard it loses some width or transient handling ability.
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 21, 2018 13:18:41 GMT -6
So, I was curious about this and got a similar switching supply that's 2.5A. I do think I hear a bit more clarity in the low end when using this supply, but on max gain it's still essentially a fuzz pedal if you plug a bass into the DI and it still sags on attacks. It could just be psychological, but I do feel like the unit sounds slightly smoother with the bigger supply. Now I'm curious how a transformer supply would fare... Where do you get the bigger supply?
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Post by shoe on Apr 21, 2018 18:19:34 GMT -6
So, I was curious about this and got a similar switching supply that's 2.5A. I do think I hear a bit more clarity in the low end when using this supply, but on max gain it's still essentially a fuzz pedal if you plug a bass into the DI and it still sags on attacks. It could just be psychological, but I do feel like the unit sounds slightly smoother with the bigger supply. Now I'm curious how a transformer supply would fare... Where do you get the bigger supply? I found one on amazon, actually. Was about $50
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 21, 2018 18:39:42 GMT -6
Can you point me in the right direction? I have no idea what I’m doing.
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Post by mulmany on Apr 21, 2018 19:06:58 GMT -6
MEAN WELL GSM60A48-P1J 60W 1.25A 48V AC/DC Green Medical Adaptor
Something like this should do just fine. Not sure what the connection size on the Elite is, so double check that.
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Post by shoe on Apr 22, 2018 2:19:46 GMT -6
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Post by pope on Apr 22, 2018 4:15:11 GMT -6
I'm not an expert but my understanding is that (if for example the elite draws 0.5A ) it doesn't really matter whether the power supply is 2.5A or 25A? As long as it's not less than 0.5A that is. Am I correct?
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Post by Guitar on Apr 22, 2018 7:45:00 GMT -6
I'm not an expert but my understanding is that (if for example the elite draws 0.5A ) it doesn't really matter whether the power supply is 2.5A or 25A? As long as it's not less than 0.5A that is. Am I correct? Yes and you also need to be very mindful to have the correct polarity on the barrel connector, as well as the correct size.
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Post by shoe on Apr 22, 2018 11:57:29 GMT -6
I'm not an expert but my understanding is that (if for example the elite draws 0.5A ) it doesn't really matter whether the power supply is 2.5A or 25A? As long as it's not less than 0.5A that is. Am I correct? Well, it depends. If the supply can't keep up with a sudden change in current demand, or the unit exceeds that demand on peaks, it can still sag. Not that I know this circuit enough to guess if that's the case, here. Probably not.
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Post by shoe on Apr 22, 2018 16:49:38 GMT -6
Ok, so update: I did a more scientific test this time, running the exact same pre-recorded clip into the exact same unit with the exact same settings but swapping out the power supply. The last time, I ran the exact same material through my stereo pair of Heritage Elites and recorded them at the same time using a different supply on each unit. This time I used the same unit.
Conclusion: There is absolutely no difference in sound between the larger supply I got off of Amazon and the stock one. I flipped the phase on the clips run with the smaller power supply and they sum to 100% silence.
So, any difference I heard last time was actually just variation between the two units (they did not sum to 100% silence, but pretty close).
So bottom line: the included power supply is totally adequate compared to a higher current rated switching supply. DO NOT BUY A DIFFERENT ONE.
(although, I suppose I could probably just run both units off the one larger supply if I use a daisy chain)
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Post by ragan on Apr 22, 2018 17:17:35 GMT -6
'Current is pulled, not pushed' a man wise in the ways of electrons once told me svart .
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Post by shoe on Apr 22, 2018 17:23:47 GMT -6
Of course. The question was whether or not the supply could keep up with the current demand from the unit on transients. It seems it can.
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Post by svart on Apr 22, 2018 19:19:24 GMT -6
'Current is pulled, not pushed' a man wise in the ways of electrons once told me svart . That's correct. I also haven't been following this thread.. What's this about swapping power supplies?
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Post by mulmany on Apr 22, 2018 20:18:56 GMT -6
Eric was wondering if the PSU for the Elite was causing it to "run out of gas" compared to his Dan A. Neve clones with original iron.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2018 23:17:01 GMT -6
I suppose this isn't for the HA Elite thread exactly, but when checking the prices of the 500 series modules I noticed there's hardly any difference in price between the AMS Neve and the HA stuff.. So why would you go for the HA stuff exactly? Just curious ..
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Post by bricejchandler on Apr 23, 2018 1:24:56 GMT -6
I suppose this isn't for the HA Elite thread exactly, but when checking the prices of the 500 series modules I noticed there's hardly any difference in price between the AMS Neve and the HA stuff.. So why would you go for the HA stuff exactly? Just curious .. It just comes down to personal preference. All the Neve clones sound different to me. I know people who love the Heritage and find the AMS to sound a little boring. Personally I would take the AMS over the Heritage and BAE any day of the week. It sounds flatter, a little cleaner to me, particularly on vocals where I tend to favor clean pres anyway.
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Post by christopher on Apr 23, 2018 2:39:15 GMT -6
heritage/BAE etc are competing directly with the real through-hole 1073. The 1073LB is something AMS made for 500 series to offer the sound of 73 using modern cheaper components. They did an amazing job! I listened to a lot of samples, and I fell in love with the 1073lb. But I felt like the Heritage EQ was simply required: Heritage was overall cleaner and more natural to me, while the 1073lb sounded like a finished product. Heritage sounds sort of like a single channel to me, AMS1073lb sounded more like it's run through multiple channels if that makes sense? sweetwater didn't carry AMS, but they do carry Rupert, so I got a 511 for way cheaper. Not the same but pretty close. Then I paired it with Heritage 73EQjr. The heritage EQ was a real surprise, I totally love it. Really sounds incredible, no pushed sound ..just pure. Now the elite series is out, probably a smarter buy. The 73EQjr doesn't have mic pre or high pass, but it does have selectable high shelf and 16k is really nice.
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