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Post by swurveman on Oct 14, 2017 15:06:09 GMT -6
Symphony MKI (I think?) doesn't get to use the new Control app, which is much slicker and easier, like UAD Console. MKI uses Maestro, which works but is clunky. This is correct, MK1 users like me are stuck on Maestro. I love the quality of the MK1 conversion. However I am not happy with Apogee's direction away from the MK1. Failing to port a version of Symphony Control on Mk1 to support the large and probably loyal (because Symphony's the best!) user base is not cool. Or smart. I also find it insulting that they call the MK2 "future proof" when not all MK1 modules are compatible and MK1 firmware upgrades require the connected Mac to be on OSX 10.10 Mavericks or earlier. In my opinion it is a case of forced obsolescence. And I bet they will do the same thing to MK2 users five years from now with MK3. It's a strategy. My next upgrade will not be an Apogee product. I normally do not get my knickers in a twist over this sort of thing but I have $4K into my MK1 and I don't see Apogee supporting it as I think they should. Sorry to rant Martin, but I think good product support is fundamental, and I don't see it here. What exactly from a conversion standpoint was improved with the MKII?
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Post by ragan on Oct 14, 2017 15:08:53 GMT -6
Now that you guys have mentioned that the MK I can't use the new interface, I probably won't bother. I like UAD's system. That really is bad customer relations, not offering an upgrade to Mk I clients. Say what you will, UAD's had dozens of free upgrades and kept their promises to their customers. It takes them a while, but they do get it right the first time most of the time. When they went to the blackface. (like a Mk II) they brought all the features they could to th silverface users and PC users. Yep. Totally. If I were a Symphony MKI user I'd be pissed too. UAD is solid.
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Post by guitfiddler on Oct 14, 2017 16:24:24 GMT -6
I do remember when Universal Audio dropped the ball and screwed the first time adopters. Remember when they offered a free thunderbolt card to people that bought an interface, but the people that had already bought the silverface that wanted the thunderbolt card that had already paid into the UAD system were left out. We couldn't use the 2.0 software without the thunderbolt card. I never paid an additional $500 card, so I stayed on FireWire and eventually decided it wasn't a business practice or company worth staying with. I didn't care for the sound of the silverface anyway, never heard the bf and after that experience decided it wasn't worth staying with UAD. I do feel bad for the Apogee MK1 users, that is surprising. I am using Apogee 16x and was very happy that Apogee came out with the thunder bridge system to make their legacy interfaces compatible and the sound even increased on quality when they introduced the 64bit system, I also paid less than $500 for it.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 14, 2017 16:48:53 GMT -6
I do remember when Universal Audio dropped the ball and screwed the first time adopters. Remember when they offered a free thunderbolt card to people that bought an interface, but the people that had already bought the silverface that wanted the thunderbolt card that had already paid into the UAD system were left out. We couldn't use the 2.0 software without the thunderbolt card. I never paid an additional $500 card, so I stayed on FireWire and eventually decided it wasn't a business practice or company worth staying with. I didn't care for the sound of the silverface anyway, never heard the bf and after that experience decided it wasn't worth staying with UAD. I do feel bad for the Apogee MK1 users, that is surprising. I am using Apogee 16x and was very happy that Apogee came out with the thunder bridge system to make their legacy interfaces compatible and the sound even increased on quality when they introduced the 64bit system, I also paid less than $500 for it. When I had just graduated and had been saving every penny while in college to invest into my studio after, Apogee was the only company who could care less and would not offer any type of EDU discount or even 5-10% off of the Ensemble or Symphony .. They did offer to sell me used B stock at a lower price then A stock retail but B stock is always cheaper 🤦♂️ ... Needless to say UAD gave a pretty nice EDU discount and I also went thru the TB card issue as an early adopter. I wanted a symphony really bad too... But as someone with debt and no steady business $4k was a ton to invest into a company who acted like my $4k wasn’t shit😟🤦♂️. Especially when I was coming from a free digi design 002 rack and mbox mini.. IE I wasn’t spending hardly any $ so to spend $4k was a huge deal/ step.
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Post by Quint on Oct 14, 2017 17:45:28 GMT -6
I do remember when Universal Audio dropped the ball and screwed the first time adopters. Remember when they offered a free thunderbolt card to people that bought an interface, but the people that had already bought the silverface that wanted the thunderbolt card that had already paid into the UAD system were left out. We couldn't use the 2.0 software without the thunderbolt card. I never paid an additional $500 card, so I stayed on FireWire and eventually decided it wasn't a business practice or company worth staying with. I didn't care for the sound of the silverface anyway, never heard the bf and after that experience decided it wasn't worth staying with UAD. I do feel bad for the Apogee MK1 users, that is surprising. I am using Apogee 16x and was very happy that Apogee came out with the thunder bridge system to make their legacy interfaces compatible and the sound even increased on quality when they introduced the 64bit system, I also paid less than $500 for it. Yeah, I was one of those people. I finally broke down and paid $500 for the TB card though.
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Post by Guitar on Oct 14, 2017 17:55:14 GMT -6
Now people are getting free quad and octo satellites haha I guess they have to keep upping the ante.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 14, 2017 17:57:02 GMT -6
I had to deal with the tb card issue .... email UAD CS ... keep emailing... Be firm ... tell them you need the TB card to experience the product full capability of the product as UAD designed it.. have you had any -38 errors or errors of the like explain that as well.. idk just tryna help you guys I know how it feels!
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 14, 2017 20:49:39 GMT -6
You have to wonder when the next hardware update is coming for UA.
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Post by Guitar on Oct 14, 2017 21:16:29 GMT -6
You have to wonder when the next hardware update is coming for UA. I've been wondering about that for a long time now... It's one of those good questions, though, I think.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 14, 2017 21:27:23 GMT -6
They'll need a huge overhaul. I think one reason they're giving away satellites is you really need the dsp power to use it effectively, and one box just isn't quite enough. They need something on the order of two Octos in one Apollo to really be where it should be. Also, it would be great if they updated the converters to compete with the Dangerous converters and the Symphony.
Since they made their 2192 ages ago, maybe they can find a way to make better converters than the ones in an Apollo now.
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Post by guitfiddler on Oct 14, 2017 21:44:38 GMT -6
It's a good platform for saving host CPU power. I was very disappointed in Universal Audio when that thunderbolt card problem happened, but that headroom and dynamics problem was a problem for me also, there was no bloom. Everything just sounded dead to me like the dynamics were missing. Then again I'm a guy that likes hardware, a real drumset, and real amps turned up and mic'd in a room. I like raw sound, everything I did on that box just had no life. It sounded like someone that hadn't changed their guitar strings in 4 years. Then when I had enough I sold it and went back to the 16x Apogee and the first note I heard had life, dynamics, and bloom. It was time to sell it. I have close to $3500 in UAD plugs, and no satellite, just sitting there dormant on my hard drive. I guess you live and learn. I'll wait until octo's are going for beans, or until UAD goes native. I was unable to use the 2.0 software, so I never got to experience the unison technology. Oh well, I also like real preamps that don't require software.
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Post by Guitar on Oct 14, 2017 21:55:16 GMT -6
I think a lot of the MK II plugins are at the top of the pack still for me. Real reach-for stuff. UA has a lot going on, that's fur sure.
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Post by guitfiddler on Oct 14, 2017 22:36:34 GMT -6
I don't hate UA, I just didn't want to use a dbox with it just so it sounded ok. I wanted to use it stand alone, but it just sounded so horrible against my Lavry/Apogee converters I felt I took a huge step back when I got it. I did like the workflow, but now I am native with no latency and pretty happy. I really don't miss it at all.
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Post by johneppstein on Oct 14, 2017 23:03:29 GMT -6
Well, I don't have a dog in this fight since I haven't used either one, but I'd just like to interject something about marketing.
Quite often a manufacturer will use "features" a.k.a. "bang for the buck" to gain a marketing advantage over a competing product (or products) that has/have superior performance in the core function. And often the company that concentrates on the core function will have a superior, but simpler, product.
Just sayin', not taking either side.
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Post by swurveman on Oct 15, 2017 8:13:05 GMT -6
Now that you guys have mentioned that the MK I can't use the new interface, I probably won't bother. I like UAD's system. That really is bad customer relations, not offering an upgrade to Mk I clients. Say what you will, UAD's had dozens of free upgrades and kept their promises to their customers. It takes them a while, but they do get it right the first time most of the time. When they went to the blackface. (like a Mk II) they brought all the features they could to th silverface users and PC users. Yep. Totally. If I were a Symphony MKI user I'd be pissed too. UAD is solid. I don't feel like UAD is solid. First of all, I bought a UAD Quad PCIE card for $1,699.00. They've dumped the price to $699.00. Secondly, unlike the Symphony MKII where I can keep my RME AES 32 cards and use standalone routing, my RME AES 32 investment is useless if i want to go to a UAD Apollo. So, I guess it's a "too each his own" situation.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 15, 2017 9:26:30 GMT -6
I'd forgotten about that Thunderbolt card fiasco. That left a bad taste in everyone's mouth. Since then UAD seems to be more customer friendly. Hopefully they learned a lesson there. Kcat and I petitioned the president about the T-Bolt issue, but they didn't adjust policy.
At the very least, I thought the cards should have been offered at their actual cost, with a free plug-in to compensate. Now THAT would have shifted a lot of minds and created some good will. It would only have cost them one free plug, and they'd have supportive customers for life. Still, they've done well since then.
When they hired Gannon as their rep, things got much better.
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Post by nick8801 on Oct 15, 2017 9:29:51 GMT -6
I sold my Dangerous Source after upgrading to the Apollo 16 mkii. I’m sure Symphony’s are great and all, but the conversion I get from my Apollo is kicking butt for me right now!
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Post by ragan on Oct 15, 2017 10:04:40 GMT -6
Yep. Totally. If I were a Symphony MKI user I'd be pissed too. UAD is solid. I don't feel like UAD is solid. First of all, I bought a UAD Quad PCIE card for $1,699.00. They've dumped the price to $699.00. Secondly, unlike the Symphony MKII where I can keep my RME AES 32 cards and use standalone routing, my RME AES 32 investment is useless if i want to go to a UAD Apollo. So, I guess it's a "too each his own" situation. Fair enough. I got tired of the DSP thing and sold my UAD plugs once I'd switched from Apollo to Symphony. I miss a couple of them (reverbs/delays) but all in all it was a good move.
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Post by Quint on Oct 15, 2017 10:28:13 GMT -6
I don't feel like UAD is solid. First of all, I bought a UAD Quad PCIE card for $1,699.00. They've dumped the price to $699.00. Secondly, unlike the Symphony MKII where I can keep my RME AES 32 cards and use standalone routing, my RME AES 32 investment is useless if i want to go to a UAD Apollo. So, I guess it's a "too each his own" situation. Fair enough. I got tired of the DSP thing and sold my UAD plugs once I'd switched from Apollo to Symphony. I miss a couple of them (reverbs/delays) but all in all it was a good move. I'm moving away from the DSP thing too. The biggest reason I got into the Apollo was for real-time tracking tools like tape echos, guitar sims, reverb, etc. But since going that route, I've decided that I don't want to have all of my eggs in one basket when it comes to interface and plugins. I've been shifting toward hardware (analog and digital) that works standalone without a computer and regardless of what interface I have. In the future, I simply want to be able to choose interfaces/converters based on sound, stability, i/o, and routing flexibility. That's it. I don't want to have to make compromises on sound or flexibility just to be able to use a guitar sim. I'll have dedicated hardware for that from now on. I just purchased a Two Notes C.A.B. and I'm liking it so far. Strymon also has some great tape delays in pedal format.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Oct 15, 2017 11:21:41 GMT -6
Before August 15th, you could exchange your Symphony MK1 chassis to a MK2 chassis for $999. I don't think any of you guys other than svart realize how much time and energy is required to create a new product like the Apollo BF or Symphony MK2, so when you complain that they abandoned their users, well, yeah. They have to pay for that R&D time!
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Post by indiehouse on Oct 15, 2017 11:39:17 GMT -6
I sold my Dangerous Source after upgrading to the Apollo 16 mkii. I’m sure Symphony’s are great and all, but the conversion I get from my Apollo is kicking butt for me right now! Yeah, I can't really complain much about the Apollo 16 MKII's conversion. When I hear guys talk about the sound of their Apollo's, what they're really talking about is the DA side of it, i.e. playback. The MKII 16's have the upgraded DA chips, ESS Sabres, right? Same as the Symphony? Before anyone says it (again), I know it's not all about the chip. Got it, captain.
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Post by indiehouse on Oct 15, 2017 11:43:13 GMT -6
Well, I don't have a dog in this fight since I haven't used either one, but I'd just like to interject something about marketing. Quite often a manufacturer will use "features" a.k.a. "bang for the buck" to gain a marketing advantage over a competing product (or products) that has/have superior performance in the core function. And often the company that concentrates on the core function will have a superior, but simpler, product. Just sayin', not taking either side. True, but how "core" is that fancy touch screen interface on the Symphony and how much does that add to the cost? I'd rather not pay for the bells and whistles. But, I guess that would be the Motu 16a. I just found their drivers to be unstable on my system.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 15, 2017 11:44:32 GMT -6
The Apollo II 16 has better converters than the 8 I believe. I wish I could've managed the 16, just to see..
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Post by matt on Oct 15, 2017 12:00:55 GMT -6
It's not about Apogee upgrading the Symphony - I applaud that. The main thing for me is the lack of a current firmware updater for the MK1 chassis. I get along fine without the much-improved Symphony Control, but needing to be on Mavericks - now three major OSX releases in the past - to run the updater just sucks. My guess is that we won't see another firmware revision, which means that MK1 users will be stuck on Sierra. Probably. Apogee would win me back if they fixed this one issue and showed a minimum, continuing level of support for their previous generation of flagship hardware.
Heck, I would pay a nominal fee (<$100) for a MK1 version of Symphony Control and a supported firmware updater, even if it had a smaller feature set. If this is not possible, it would be interesting to hear why.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 15, 2017 12:30:27 GMT -6
Kind of a lot of misinformation here :,UA sold the sf apollo for like 3 years as a FW device with a tbolt PCI-e port but no card. Don't know how any early adopter over 3 years missed that. Then it started providing the tb2 card with apollos and again you got that as part of the deal. Is any one truly surprised that early adopters and I am one paid top $ for the Apollo and years later UA sweetened the deal ? We all got what was advertised and what we paid for? We applaud those companies that give us good deals:,guess what, there is a rub, hardware clones put pressure on sales of original units reducing those company's revenues. Software competition and subscription deals puts pressure on plug prices. UA is regularly criticized for its retail prices and frankly, often here by names I see above: guess what , careful what you wish for? UA has steadily dropped prices on its satellites, plug ins and deals and this puts more pressure on its bottom line. I have an Octo in an owc chassis that in total cost me well over 2 grand, I'll be doing well if I see $750 for it, I have like 7-10 grand retail in UA plugs and peeps seriously offer me .20 on the dollar:?why ? Cus UA dropped the price of its Ultimate 5 bundle, all UA's plugs including an Octo satalite by almost 2 grand. UA is in a very competitive space. I don't applaud these things but do understand it's struggle for relative competitive advantage ! I think apollo mkiii will be killer.
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