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Post by BradM on Feb 16, 2018 18:25:22 GMT -6
I'd say a 4-layer backplane with proper ground and power planes... Sorry but I totally disagree. There is zero to be gained by going to a 4 layer backplane in a 500 series rack. In fact, I have experimented with a 2 layer backplane vs 4 layer in my SumBus mixer and the only gain was in price which was dramatic. Hi Jeff, That's fair. There are lots of variables that come into play in a PCB layout, so if the performance / value wasn't there for you based on your particular design and layout, that's totally valid. If I ever make a rack I'll be sure to try it both ways myself. Why spend the money if you don't need to, right? But you are right - 4 layer boards are more expensive. What kind of tests did you do to evaluate the performance differences? Brad |
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Post by guitfiddler on Feb 16, 2018 19:10:45 GMT -6
I'm all ears!!!
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Post by jsteiger on Feb 16, 2018 19:53:30 GMT -6
Sorry but I totally disagree. There is zero to be gained by going to a 4 layer backplane in a 500 series rack. In fact, I have experimented with a 2 layer backplane vs 4 layer in my SumBus mixer and the only gain was in price which was dramatic. Hi Jeff, That's fair. There are lots of variables that come into play in a PCB layout, so if the performance / value wasn't there for you based on your particular design and layout, that's totally valid. If I ever make a rack I'll be sure to try it both ways myself. Why spend the money if you don't need to, right? But you are right - 4 layer boards are more expensive. What kind of tests did you do to evaluate the performance differences? Brad Bus crosstalk and noise. In the SumBus, there are 4 unbalanced bus tracks each running literally around the backplane in somewhat of an H. Virtual earth summing and 0V noise is likely the hardest thing to overcome in a design like this. Crosstalk between unbalanced bus tracks was ever so slightly better with a 4 layer PCB but the 0V noise was actually worse. I am using a brick SMPS and have bested some linear supplies with my 2 layer backplane and PSU filtering. Dead-ass fricking silent. A 500 series rack that follows the original API VPR format has balanced signals in and out. By definition, any noise picked up on a balanced line will be cancelled in the receiver amp. There its really no reason at all to ever consider a 4 layer backplane for a standard 500 rack. |
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Post by christopher on Feb 17, 2018 0:42:55 GMT -6
So I've watched this thread for months and it got me worried. I needed a lunchbox. I did a ton of homework on which lunchbox to pick up. I learned a ton about power supplies, internal/external, card regulation, slot regulation, VPN, extra pins, custom features, etc. ..more than I ever wanted to know! So I decided that either API lunchbox or Rupert Neve would work for me. I realized the Rupert 6 slot has a totally awesome connection panel on the back (XLR and TRS i/o, and DB25), and made in USA, and very affordable. So that's what I got.. plus a Rupert 511 pre, and couldn't resist HeritageEQ73jr after hearing that 73elite demo. So I get the stuff, I'm super excited, hook everything up (cables patched 511 to EQ73 and interface) and... HISSSS!. Not really a bad hiss, but a whole lot more than my console. I was immediately saddened. I knew something had to be wrong, still I quickly thought to blame the internal power supply hahah--BUT!--- after a few hours of comparing to interface preamps and 511, checking signal flow--
***IT WAS ONLY A BAD CABLE!***
Oh man! Talk about a relief. The final verdict: The 511into my RME has less noise than my RME preamps! It's super clear, no noise, sounds incredible of course. Same with EQ73Jr, Same with them chained together. So yeah, I just wanted to share if anyone out there is concerned. BTW--Big thanks Brad for shining a light on this stuff! I learned a lot. It made me more confident in the 500 series as future proof, and knowing some manufacturers do things differently and what to watch out for. For example, Heritage is on top of this and builds a slow ramp into their module to rule out any power up spike issues in certain lunchboxes. And the Rupert box has extra reserve power/ current meter on the front to keep things running with higher power draw cards. Also I learned that any voltage up to 32v in class A can be engineered in the card to be clean and reliable, at least as good as needed for typical things.
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Post by guitfiddler on Jun 27, 2018 23:03:50 GMT -6
So I've watched this thread for months and it got me worried. I needed a lunchbox. I did a ton of homework on which lunchbox to pick up. I learned a ton about power supplies, internal/external, card regulation, slot regulation, VPN, extra pins, custom features, etc. ..more than I ever wanted to know! So I decided that either API lunchbox or Rupert Neve would work for me. I realized the Rupert 6 slot has a totally awesome connection panel on the back (XLR and TRS i/o, and DB25), and made in USA, and very affordable. So that's what I got.. plus a Rupert 511 pre, and couldn't resist HeritageEQ73jr after hearing that 73elite demo. So I get the stuff, I'm super excited, hook everything up (cables patched 511 to EQ73 and interface) and... HISSSS!. Not really a bad hiss, but a whole lot more than my console. I was immediately saddened. I knew something had to be wrong, still I quickly thought to blame the internal power supply hahah--BUT!--- after a few hours of comparing to interface preamps and 511, checking signal flow-- ***IT WAS ONLY A BAD CABLE!*** Oh man! Talk about a relief. The final verdict: The 511into my RME has less noise than my RME preamps! It's super clear, no noise, sounds incredible of course. Same with EQ73Jr, Same with them chained together. So yeah, I just wanted to share if anyone out there is concerned. BTW--Big thanks Brad for shining a light on this stuff! I learned a lot. It made me more confident in the 500 series as future proof, and knowing some manufacturers do things differently and what to watch out for. For example, Heritage is on top of this and builds a slow ramp into their module to rule out any power up spike issues in certain lunchboxes. And the Rupert box has extra reserve power/ current meter on the front to keep things running with higher power draw cards. Also I learned that any voltage up to 32v in class A can be engineered in the card to be clean and reliable, at least as good as needed for typical things. Did we ever come to a conclusion on what is the best design or is there just too many variables? So what did you go with? My choices are: Wes Audio Supercarrier II Rupert Neve R 10 Heritage Audio OST 10 |
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Post by stormymondays on Jun 28, 2018 13:29:30 GMT -6
Peter from A-Designs recommended the Rupert Neve to me. I got the R6, zero issues so far.
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Post by winetree on Jun 28, 2018 14:54:38 GMT -6
I've got 8 Classic Api 51x racks with the beefy Capi external power supplies.
Never had a problem.
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Post by adamjbrass on Jun 28, 2018 17:04:52 GMT -6
My Purple Audio Sweet Ten has never had a problem in the last 6 years and I switch these modules out like changing your socks.
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Post by brenta on Jan 26, 2019 9:41:44 GMT -6
So I got a Wesaudio Supercarrier II a couple months ago and finally got it installed and wired up to the patchbay a couple weeks ago and started having a bunch of noise issues. The noise sounds like electrical interference but there are a few different kinds of noise happening. Some modules have more noise than others. The API 550B and CAPI BT50 are the worst. After a bit of research I realized that these two units have unbalanced inputs so I think that's why. The noise level on these two makes them completely unusable. My A Designs EM-PEQ is fine. My two Cranborne Camdens are pretty bad, basically unusable. The Great River 500 NV has some noise but not terrible. The two Wesaudio modules I have--Hyperion and Dione--are pretty much silent.
I tried putting the 550b and BT50 in a Radial SixPack and kept everything else the same, cables etc and...they're pretty much silent. I thought the Radial is supposed to be the noisy one?
So at this point I'm not sure if my Supercarrier II is defective or if it just sucks. I'm planning on contacting Wesaudio as soon as NAMM is over and see what they say. But I think I'm going to try to return it to Sweetwater first. I'm past the 30 day return policy but I think I've spent enough money with them over the years that I should have some pull in this situation. I'm leaning towards just going with another brand rather than risk dealing with more headaches. After years of no problems with my gear, the last several months have been issue after issue.
It's pretty disappointing, the Supercarrier II seemed so promising on paper. From their marketing "The answer is very simple – based on the ISP technology, each slot is individually supplied with linear power, causing each module to work in totally isolated, and independent way. To say it simple, it is like each of 11 modules would work in separate 500 series frames, what makes it ideal environment for your beloved hardware – without any interference, noise, pops or clicks. To separate each slot even more, we introduced a tantalum caps for each slot to clean the whole frequency spectrum from any other unwanted noise." So much for all that.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 27, 2019 11:32:26 GMT -6
Do not buy the Midas L6 or L10. They have the motorboat spaceship noise.
I have gone through an ordeal with Sweetwater, they helped me out though. Ultimately I have ordered a Lindell 510 Power MK II, which I hopefully will be able to report about by Tuesday. Fingers crossed. My API 500V is chugging along btw...
It really sucks that there are SO MANY racks out there with noise problems. Caveat emptor.
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Post by stormymondays on Jan 27, 2019 12:07:35 GMT -6
I have the Rupert Neve 6-space and no problems whatsoever. Peter Montessi from A-Designs recommended it specifically when I bought my pair of EM-PEQ.
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Post by jtc111 on Jan 27, 2019 19:46:45 GMT -6
I am looking at expanding my rack! Rupert Neve, Purple Audio, BAE, API, CAPI....I want a good rack that holds 10 cards, but doesn't skimp on the power. Are they all similar? I heard API is made in China and they don't have enough juice? I like the Rupert Stuff, well built and I like the meter that shows how much juice the rack is using. Several awesome diy builders here at RGO if you do need the CAPI rack built for you ( I am not one of them haha ) ( not tryna sale you ) What do people charge for the assembly? Just ballpark is fine. |
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Post by jtc111 on Jan 28, 2019 20:21:43 GMT -6
Several awesome diy builders here at RGO if you do need the CAPI rack built for you ( I am not one of them haha ) ( not tryna sale you ) What do people charge for the assembly? Just ballpark is fine. Anyone know what folks charge to assemble one of the CAPI rack kits? |
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Post by Blackdawg on Jan 28, 2019 21:30:14 GMT -6
What do people charge for the assembly? Just ballpark is fine. Anyone know what folks charge to assemble one of the CAPI rack kits? does I believe. I'd do it too. |
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Post by jtc111 on Jan 28, 2019 21:33:36 GMT -6
Anyone know what folks charge to assemble one of the CAPI rack kits? does I believe. I'd do it too. How much would it cost? |
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Post by Bender on Jan 28, 2019 21:36:46 GMT -6
I think all the folks that build kits here are pretty much willing to hook it up at the same/ fair price for a fellow RGO'er. Boils down to if you wanna go through reverb, paypal, and of course shipping, so best bet it probably to go with the RGO'er that's closest to you. I've actually been awaiting for Capi to restock on the racks for a month now so I can build myself another, rack...... still sitting tight. lol
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Post by jtc111 on Jan 28, 2019 21:41:01 GMT -6
I think all the folks that build kits here are pretty much willing to hook it up at the same/ fair price for a fellow RGO'er. Boils down to if you wanna go through reverb, paypal, and of course shipping, so best bet it probably to go with the RGO'er that's closest to you. I've actually been awaiting for Capi to restock on the racks for a month no so I can build myself another, still sitting tight. lol I'm on Long Island. But without knowing what anyone is charging to assemble the kit, I don't know if it makes sense to me or not. |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jan 28, 2019 21:47:08 GMT -6
I think all the folks that build kits here are pretty much willing to hook it up at the same/ fair price for a fellow RGO'er. Boils down to if you wanna go through reverb, paypal, and of course shipping, so best bet it probably to go with the RGO'er that's closest to you. I've actually been awaiting for Capi to restock on the racks for a month no so I can build myself another, still sitting tight. lol I'm on Long Island. But without knowing what anyone is charging to assemble the kit, I don't know if it makes sense to me or not. I think the bending unit was kindly trying to say a discussion like this about fees is best done by private message. |
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Post by jtc111 on Jan 28, 2019 22:00:20 GMT -6
I'm on Long Island. But without knowing what anyone is charging to assemble the kit, I don't know if it makes sense to me or not. I think the bending unit was kindly trying to say a discussion like this about fees is best done by private message. I'm a bit thick sometimes. Thanks. |
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Post by brenta on Feb 16, 2019 16:33:34 GMT -6
So I got a Wesaudio Supercarrier II a couple months ago and finally got it installed and wired up to the patchbay a couple weeks ago and started having a bunch of noise issues. The noise sounds like electrical interference but there are a few different kinds of noise happening. Some modules have more noise than others. The API 550B and CAPI BT50 are the worst. After a bit of research I realized that these two units have unbalanced inputs so I think that's why. The noise level on these two makes them completely unusable. My A Designs EM-PEQ is fine. My two Cranborne Camdens are pretty bad, basically unusable. The Great River 500 NV has some noise but not terrible. The two Wesaudio modules I have--Hyperion and Dione--are pretty much silent. I tried putting the 550b and BT50 in a Radial SixPack and kept everything else the same, cables etc and...they're pretty much silent. I thought the Radial is supposed to be the noisy one? So at this point I'm not sure if my Supercarrier II is defective or if it just sucks. I'm planning on contacting Wesaudio as soon as NAMM is over and see what they say. But I think I'm going to try to return it to Sweetwater first. I'm past the 30 day return policy but I think I've spent enough money with them over the years that I should have some pull in this situation. I'm leaning towards just going with another brand rather than risk dealing with more headaches. After years of no problems with my gear, the last several months have been issue after issue. It's pretty disappointing, the Supercarrier II seemed so promising on paper. From their marketing "The answer is very simple – based on the ISP technology, each slot is individually supplied with linear power, causing each module to work in totally isolated, and independent way. To say it simple, it is like each of 11 modules would work in separate 500 series frames, what makes it ideal environment for your beloved hardware – without any interference, noise, pops or clicks. To separate each slot even more, we introduced a tantalum caps for each slot to clean the whole frequency spectrum from any other unwanted noise." So much for all that. Upon much further review, the Wesaudio Supercarrier is NOT my problem. Unfortunately it appears my problems go much deeper with some combination of RFI/EMI. When I did further testing I realized the noise can vary significantly by just moving the microphone by a couple inches or pointing in a slightly different direction. The Radial is not consistently quieter than the Supercarrier. I contacted the Wesaudio guys and they were super responsive. Sweetwater took care of me and sent me another Supercarrier to try. So my mistake for besmirching the Supercarrier. I moved into a new studio a couple months ago and I'm starting to think I have a nightmare ahead of me to solve these noise issues. |
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Post by Vincent R. on Mar 16, 2022 8:23:58 GMT -6
Do not buy the Midas L6 or L10. They have the motorboat spaceship noise. I have gone through an ordeal with Sweetwater, they helped me out though. Ultimately I have ordered a Lindell 510 Power MK II, which I hopefully will be able to report about by Tuesday. Fingers crossed. My API 500V is chugging along btw... It really sucks that there are SO MANY racks out there with noise problems. Caveat emptor. How did the Lindell 510 work out for you? |
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Post by Guitar on Mar 16, 2022 10:08:19 GMT -6
Do not buy the Midas L6 or L10. They have the motorboat spaceship noise. I have gone through an ordeal with Sweetwater, they helped me out though. Ultimately I have ordered a Lindell 510 Power MK II, which I hopefully will be able to report about by Tuesday. Fingers crossed. My API 500V is chugging along btw... It really sucks that there are SO MANY racks out there with noise problems. Caveat emptor. How did the Lindell 510 work out for you? I love it! Been rocking steady for years now. There are a couple minor mechanical fit issues but really nothing to complain about, it just works. No noise or anything like that, sounds good. |
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Post by Vincent R. on Mar 16, 2022 10:39:21 GMT -6
How did the Lindell 510 work out for you? I love it! Been rocking steady for years now. There are a couple minor mechanical fit issues but really nothing to complain about, it just works. No noise or anything like that, sounds good. Good to know. Thanks! |
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Post by Tbone81 on Mar 16, 2022 10:51:42 GMT -6
I love it! Been rocking steady for years now. There are a couple minor mechanical fit issues but really nothing to complain about, it just works. No noise or anything like that, sounds good. Good to know. Thanks! Hey Vincent, I know others have had good experiences with Lindel but I had a Lindell 506 rack that was nothing hit problems First one was DOA, sent it back and had it replaced. Second one had strange volume differences from slot to slot. Sent it back, they repaired it, third time around it developed volume/gain issues again in two different slots. Sent it back, had it replaced with a new one. Then that one developed issues too, so I cut my losses and went with a Bento 10 slot chassis. For what it’s worth the Bento has performed great with no issues. As always YMMV. |
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Post by Vincent R. on Mar 30, 2022 6:43:04 GMT -6
Decided to go with the Rupert Neve R10. It is on the way. Looking forward to trying it out.
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