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Post by Ward on Mar 30, 2017 12:45:42 GMT -6
P.S. And jayfitz, since you're a dealer and Mark Fouxman has moved to dealer networks rather than direct sales, perhaps you can contact him here about the Samar mics and become a dealer for those also!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 30, 2017 13:38:14 GMT -6
Doesn't look like anyone has mentioned them yet, but you could get a pair of the Stager SR-2N's for $1000. Killer ribbons, priced waaayyy below their value. Check them out for sure. We can't keep them in stock... Ummm yeah, about that. Why not see if any one of us might be close to you who has either Samar or Royer ribbons for you to compare them to, or a Fostex Printed Ribbon (as myself and ericn promoted) or someone like me, who has all the above. I think you'll find the Stager ribbon is not only cheaper priced than the others but cheaper sounding too. And BTW, the Samar ones aren't that much more spendy! Worth every penny, when every penny counts. The freedom of being a former pimp no less one who's whore house Was so big one's allied by no one and everyone means you can say what you want with out worries!
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gavg
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Post by gavg on Mar 30, 2017 13:48:28 GMT -6
I'd say you can never go wrong with a Coles 4038. The R84 is amazing as well, and to my ear a bit more naturally open sounding where as the Coles is naturally darker. I recently did a brass section with Bari, Tenor and 2 trumpets where I used R84's on the saxes and 4038s on the horns. Sounded great! 4038 is my favorite trumpet mic of all time; it's the perfect marriage of a bright instrument with soft topped mic.
121 a bit honky for me on brass.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Mar 30, 2017 22:28:51 GMT -6
I agree with this to a certain extent. That all makes sense and is all well and good in a perfect situation. But, we all know that there aren't really perfect situations anymore. The room can have weird nodes, a player may be hung over, the conductor may be hung over, a mic can die in the middle of a take, if you're in a huge room and have long runs you can get interference and noise on certain channels. All sorts of crap can leak into a perfect situation if you're not prepared, and if something does indeed go wrong with a decca tree or however you'd set up, you'd be left holding your dick ( pardon the language) while everybody stares at you wondering why that take isn't going to work. If I have a backup mic and available inputs, I record them - period. I was listening to an interview with Ryan Freeland (who I think makes the absolute BEST sounding records these days) and he was talking about how If he is engineering, there will never be a technical reason as to why the perfect take won't wind up on a record. Made a lot of sense to me and I've tried to copy that idea ever since. I'm not saying come mix time that Id use every mic that I've recorded, actually Id say half get tossed out. Hard drive space is cheap. I use it to my advantage. That sounds like excuses for not doing your prep properly. You don't use a room with weird modes. It's classical, orchestral music. You scout your location. You use an appropriate room. That's part of recording classical music. With classical music the "production" is almost entirely done in the pre-pro stage. You're dealing with classical musicians - a player better not be hung over - they won't last very long in that world if they are - these aren't rock stars. You check your gear in advance and use good quality stuff. You make sure your cabling is good. You check your mics. You're using top quality mics, so they shouldn't fail, and you bring a backup, so if a mic does fail you replace it. You set up and check everything in advance. With only 3 mics there isn't any excuse for not checking your gear in advance. You don't go in with the mentality that hard drive space is cheap - that breeds sloppy thinking. You don't go in with the mentality that you can fix it in the mix. You don't go in with the mentality that there's going to BE a mix in the usual sense, because there isn't. Thyat's not your job. That's the conductor's job. That's why they have conductors. You go in with the mentality that you're making a record of an event, you keep it simple, and since it's simple you can make sure that there aren't any unforeseen technical problems. The problem with usingt a bunch of spot mics or even section mics inb an orchgestral situation is that they tend to be obtrusive to some degree. That's fine in a pop recording or even modern styled jazz recordings, which have become somewhat infused with a pop mentality and aesthetic. But spot mics in classical tend to, oh, how shall I put this, be a bit jarring, they put the highlighted instrument on a sudden pedestal in an artificial way. It draws attention to the engineering. You don't want to draw attention to the engineering, it "breaks the spell". If you absolutely have to use a spot mic it should be done sparingly and carefully, and is generally a sign that something is wrong somewhere in the pre-pro. You don't want your soloist popping up like a jack-in-the-box. even a suave and formally attired jack in the box. You do the work in advance. You keep the quality high. If necessary you rent the appropriate mics and you rent from a reputable source. You have discipline. you do it right the first time. It's classical music, it's not rock and roll. In my opinion modern technology has done considerable damage to the way people approach recording. Ok, the lecture is over, you kids can get off the lawn now... Thanks, I do however prep properly. If im hired to ENGINEER a gig, I don't pick the songs, the room, the budget, the composer, or the conductor. I'm paid to show up with my equipment at the predecided destination, set up said gear, and record whatever is being played to the best of my ability with the best equipment the budget can afford me. Let's not pretend that gear doesn't go down. I've been tracking in a great environment in the past and had a tube go bad on me in an M49. Shit happens and when it does it sucks. And when you have 40 people sitting around when shit happens, you can say - no worries it's taken care of already, or you can have them all sit there for 30 mins while you rummage around in the van for another mic to throw up. I've done 12 hour tracking days for full on PBS scores, chamber choirs, etc. I've been around the block, I've sat next to multiple Grammy winning engineers for many years when I came up as an assistant in numerous studios in NYC. They were all very supportive and genuine in sharing their knowledge and I was grateful for their attitudes. The nostalgia for the old days gets tiring after a while. How many countless hours of bullshit have been recorded to tape back in the day when it was considered cheap? Would you want to sit through the horrid hundreds of tapes of Fleetwood Mac in the studio for months? What's the difference between that and a hard drive always recording? You'd come off a lot more helpful if you didn't assume you were always talking to some 14 year old kid playing with garage band in their bedroom right?.....
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Post by topshelfmg on Mar 30, 2017 23:05:15 GMT -6
I believe out of the ones you mentioned, the AEA R84 would serve you best on the widest variety of sources. I also have an AEA N22 which I absolutely love, but its a little brighter (based on ribbon standards, still darker / smoother compared to just about all condensers) and I absolutely love it on baritone and tenor sax, in addition to trombone. The AEA R84 will be a little darker without being as dark as the Coles, so you will get a nice in between point that will work great on a ton of sources, even outside of horns. Many people are firm believers that an RCA 77 is the best horn microphone of all time, and considering some of the best horn recordings I have ever heard in my life used one, I can't disagree. Also, the Royer SF-12 is INCREDIBLE, and I use it regularly for acoustic instruments and over the drummers head. You would not be disappointed with one, and it will absolutely kick ass as a stereo microphone on horns AND all kinds of orchestral work.
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 31, 2017 1:50:37 GMT -6
That sounds like excuses for not doing your prep properly. You don't use a room with weird modes. It's classical, orchestral music. You scout your location. You use an appropriate room. That's part of recording classical music. With classical music the "production" is almost entirely done in the pre-pro stage. You're dealing with classical musicians - a player better not be hung over - they won't last very long in that world if they are - these aren't rock stars. You check your gear in advance and use good quality stuff. You make sure your cabling is good. You check your mics. You're using top quality mics, so they shouldn't fail, and you bring a backup, so if a mic does fail you replace it. You set up and check everything in advance. With only 3 mics there isn't any excuse for not checking your gear in advance. You don't go in with the mentality that hard drive space is cheap - that breeds sloppy thinking. You don't go in with the mentality that you can fix it in the mix. You don't go in with the mentality that there's going to BE a mix in the usual sense, because there isn't. That's not your job. That's the conductor's job. That's why they have conductors. You go in with the mentality that you're making a record of an event, you keep it simple, and since it's simple you can make sure that there aren't any unforeseen technical problems. The problem with using a bunch of spot mics or even section mics in an orchgestral situation is that they tend to be obtrusive to some degree. That's fine in a pop recording or even modern styled jazz recordings, which have become somewhat infused with a pop mentality and aesthetic. But spot mics in classical tend to, oh, how shall I put this, be a bit jarring, they put the highlighted instrument on a sudden pedestal in an artificial way. It draws attention to the engineering. You don't want to draw attention to the engineering, it "breaks the spell". If you absolutely have to use a spot mic it should be done sparingly and carefully, and is generally a sign that something is wrong somewhere in the pre-pro. You don't want your soloist popping up like a jack-in-the-box. even a suave and formally attired jack in the box. You do the work in advance. You keep the quality high. If necessary you rent the appropriate mics and you rent from a reputable source. You have discipline. you do it right the first time. It's classical music, it's not rock and roll. In my opinion modern technology has done considerable damage to the way people approach recording. Ok, the lecture is over, you kids can get off the lawn now... Thanks, I do however prep properly. Well, prep for a traditional classical recording session isn't the same as prep for a tv show or a modern pop (using the term very loosely) production. But in this case we ARE dealing with a person who picks the material, the room, the budget, and the orchestra and conductor. In a very real way he's the producer of the event as much as an engineer. Actually, since we're talking about a real time recording, there's comparitively little "tape" to be gone through - even if he wants to comp and edit multiple takes. I'm sure there's far more "bullshit" to be dealt with in a typical modern production. It's not the "cheapness of tape" that was the important thing then, or the cheapness of hard disk space now. It's the EXPENSE of having a whole room full of union musicians sitting there getting paid scale or better. The more complicated you make things, the more things there are to go down, the more potential problems you have. The more complicated you make things, the more time it takes to figure out what you're doing. If anything, those Fleetwood Mac sessions form a potent argument for a simpler way of doing things. (And FWIW I more or less lost interest in the band after Kiln House...) You're making my point for me.... Of course gear goes down. But it's a hell of a lot easier to get back up when all you have to deal with is a case with 6 mics (one set of mains, one set of spares) two recorders capable of at least 3 tracks each, stands, and the necessary cables to connect it together (with adequate spares.) You can wheel the whole kit and caboodle in on one dolly and not have to rummage in the van for anything. Shoudn't take more than a couple of minutes (OK, maybe 5 or 10) to fix anything. Of course gear goes down - but the less you have to deal with the less chance it will and the less time it takes to figure it out. And doing a straight classical recording is a very, very different matter than doing audio for a TV production, because, while a straight classical orchestral recording should not have to be mixed if done properly, any kind of soundtrack recording where the visuals are the primary focus of the production most definitely DOES have to be mixed because the sound must be able to follow the video (film, whatever), even is the music in nominally the focus of the production. That's because if, for example, the camera zooms in on a soloist it would seem odd and a bit "flat" not to have the sound follow - so you need spot mics, etc. Again, there's a HUGE difference between an orchestral date with a symphony orchestra of union players and a studio of drug addled rock stars on an unlimited budget - who, I might point out, had all the complicated crap in the world at thyeir disposal and it didn't do a damn thing to make the sessions more efficient, more productive, or more anything else except probably more longer.(ungrammatical usage intentional.) Assuming professional, well rehearsed musicians, the more complicated you make things the longer it takes and the more difficult it becomes to get a satisfactory result. I'm not the one here making assumptions. And 14 year old kids don't have the maturity to even begin to understand what I'm talking about. I'm 66 years old. It took me most of my life to finally understand these things. (I used to be thoughly caught up in that "modern" way of thinking.) There is a reason that those who are true connoisseurs of classical recordings regard those old recordings from the time of the late '50s to the early '60s to be the finest examples of recorded orchestral music. After multitrack and all the modern gizmos started becoming common during the '60s engineers started becoming enamored of the technology instead of the sound and started to think that just because they had all that cool new stuff available they had to use it. Engineers started to lose sight of the fact that it's about the music, not the engineer(ing).
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gavg
Full Member
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Post by gavg on Mar 31, 2017 6:17:06 GMT -6
I'm struggling to see what all this bluster about proper orchestral engineering and prep has to do with a question about ribbon mics on brass instruments!?
Btw, agree about the SF12. Amazing mic and possibly even better (but more expensive) is the SF24. I've had great luck with the SF12 as a brass room mic.
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Post by jayfitz on Apr 3, 2017 9:10:13 GMT -6
P.S. And jayfitz , since you're a dealer and Mark Fouxman has moved to dealer networks rather than direct sales, perhaps you can contact him here about the Samar mics and become a dealer for those also! I just thought I'd bring the Stager into the equation as there are many happy users out there for it. And yes, we had the Samar VL37 in house on demo a few weeks back and didn't feel it really won out over Royer, Mesanovic, AEA or Stager...even the Shure/C&T Naked Eye. Also, business wise, while Samar are now using dealers, they also sold many mics directly before that change so the demand is not as much as it could be. They also added a distributor/middle man who went out and signed up a bunch of dealers at the same time. Now, you have many new dealers, with inventory, trying to sell to a satiated market who will now compete with each other and begin discounting pricing thus eroding the value of the product. I prefer slow growth for newer manufacturers, especially in the current Pro Audio climate. Right now the VL37 is "on sale" at one dealer, while not on sale at the others, so....there you go. Edit: Not taking anything away from the Samar VL37, just too much overlap within the ribbons we already offer.
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Post by forgotteng on Apr 3, 2017 22:27:11 GMT -6
We live in a time where their are so many decent choices it makes it complex to suggest the "best" mic for a job. Then when you consider one engineers approach in comparison to another engineer as far as mic placement, signal chain, ambience etc. it muddies the waters even more. I have had two separate sax players tell me I got the best sax sound they ever recorded. This was using a combination of a fathead ribbon with a Heil PR30 dynamic. It was all about positioning and where I sat it in the mix etc. Now of course they didn't say it was the best sound they ever heard it was just the best sound that they ever recorded. (Small town) Now how much better would that have sounded if I would have had a Coles or a Samar Royer or whatever? That's the rabbit hole and why I never seem to have extra cash lying around.
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Post by Vincent R. on Apr 4, 2017 11:19:29 GMT -6
Thanks everyone for the great recommendations. Sorry we got a little sidetracked. I mentioned this was part of my orchestral recording rig and johneppstein shared with me a method he feels works better than the one I was planning. Very interesting stuff I may try at some point. I'm anxiously waiting to see how much the R0DE TF M50's are going to cost. If they're as affordable as many other R0DE mics, I may have found my decca tree set up. We'll see. John, for some reason Tape Op made me purchase the archived article. I am a subscriber and have access to all of the issues since I subscribed. ericn thanks for the recommendations for the Beyerdynamics. I always over look them. For the price I really should grab one of eBay and check it out. Also, I agree about the time with the orchestra. That's why I've gone in the direction I am. Also, this is not for pure classical recording. This is for the orchestrations for mine and my wife's upcoming albums. After we record the orchestra or band, we'll be adding vocals..... there is also a chance we'll just record the whole thing live with the orchestra. My wife and I are good enough to do that. jayfitz & c0rtland, I really wish there were more audio samples of the Stagers out there. They look very cool, and reportedly sound cool. I would just need to hear them first. gavg, the SF12 is an amazing mic. I recorded my album in a hall with a U87ai and the SF12 as a room mic. The sound was wonderful. drbill, I looked up the 205. The clips on the piano were really nice. I may look into this. svart, not looking to mic them from too much of a distance. The goal would be to place the mic right in front of the section to capture the heft that the room mics may not. Not looking at SDCs for this. I'd be tempted to use my 67s for this though. Ward, I would love to meet with anyone in the NYC area to try out microphones. I'm not a brass player though, so I'd need to figure out how to properly test them. I'm leaning toward the AEA R84. My dealer can give me a good deal on it. So it may just be the most economical choice of the 3 I was looking at. I got some nice suggestions on cheaper ribbons to try too, which is cool. I just want to make sure I have one very good ribbon in my collection.
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Post by Ward on Apr 4, 2017 11:43:37 GMT -6
Ward, I would love to meet with anyone in the NYC area to try out microphones. I'm not a brass player though, so I'd need to figure out how to properly test them. I'm leaning toward the AEA R84. My dealer can give me a good deal on it. So it may just be the most economical choice of the 3 I was looking at. I got some nice suggestions on cheaper ribbons to try too, which is cool. I just want to make sure I have one very good ribbon in my collection. Wel, I'm not in the NY area at this time. No doubt I will be again, as my little sister still lives there and I plan on visiting her and spending some time with Martin John Butler. Soon, I hope. So it's possible to have some mics with me. More than possible. Probable and likely. With regards to the R84. I have one. It is on the dark side. But they all have different uses and colors to add to the sound. R121, two Samar VL37s, the Foxtex88, a CAD ribbon, a 1942 RCA 44, are all in my collection and I have to say, for ribbons, the Samar is my favorite despite not being as expensive as some others.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 4, 2017 12:19:04 GMT -6
Ward, I would love to meet with anyone in the NYC area to try out microphones. I'm not a brass player though, so I'd need to figure out how to properly test them. I'm leaning toward the AEA R84. My dealer can give me a good deal on it. So it may just be the most economical choice of the 3 I was looking at. I got some nice suggestions on cheaper ribbons to try too, which is cool. I just want to make sure I have one very good ribbon in my collection. Wel, I'm not in the NY area at this time. No doubt I will be again, as my little sister still lives there and I plan on visiting her and spending some time with Martin John Butler. Soon, I hope. So it's possible to have some mics with me. More than possible. Probable and likely. With regards to the R84. I have one. It is on the dark side. But they all have different uses and colors to add to the sound. R121, two Samar VL37s, the Foxtex88, a CAD ribbon, a 1942 RCA 44, are all in my collection and I have to say, for ribbons, the Samar is my favorite despite not being as expensive as some others. Let me know when, maybe an east coast RGO meet!
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Post by drbill on Apr 4, 2017 12:30:02 GMT -6
I'm anxiously waiting to see how much the R0DE TF M50's are going to cost. If they're as affordable as many other R0DE mics, I may have found my decca tree set up. We'll see. If you (or anyone else) want REAL M50's - let me know. I have a scoring engineer buddy selling off his exTREMEly high end orchestral mic collection for a good reason. Rarely do M50's that Klaus and Bobby baby ever come up FS. The Rode mics may be nice, but nothing can touch an M50. The rarest of the rare. The main reason you hardly ever see them up FS. High end investment for the future. I think he's got Pairs and Decca matched triples. As for the 205's. Yup, keepers. I've got 3 now. Two wasn't enough.
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Post by Vincent R. on Apr 4, 2017 13:37:07 GMT -6
I'm anxiously waiting to see how much the R0DE TF M50's are going to cost. If they're as affordable as many other R0DE mics, I may have found my decca tree set up. We'll see. If you (or anyone else) want REAL M50's - let me know. I have a scoring engineer buddy selling off his exTREMEly high end orchestral mic collection for a good reason. Rarely do M50's that Klaus and Bobby baby ever come up FS. The Rode mics may be nice, but nothing can touch an M50. The rarest of the rare. The main reason you hardly ever see them up FS. High end investment for the future. I think he's got Pairs and Decca matched triples. As for the 205's. Yup, keepers. I've got 3 now. Two wasn't enough. Well, when my career reaches Andrea Bocelli status, we'll talk. :-P Until then I'll have to make due. Man, would I love the real deal though.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 4, 2017 14:17:15 GMT -6
John, for some reason Tape Op made me purchase the archived article. I am a subscriber and have access to all of the issues since I subscribed. Hmmm. If you have a subscription you should be registered on the website. You need to have your password to access content, which could be a problem if you don't store passwords on your computer and don't remember them well - you'd need to go through the "new password" routine. As I recall, when I read the article I had to think fort a minute to figure out how to log in though, as it doesn't do an automatic login with saved password, you need to enter your email. Or username, I forget... Strange....
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Post by jeremygillespie on Apr 4, 2017 15:40:40 GMT -6
If there is going to be an easy coast get together Id be happy to offer our studio to hang at for a day/night.
Lots of gear and great old mics. Would be fun for sure!
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Post by EmRR on Apr 4, 2017 19:37:43 GMT -6
I haven't dug into it, but memory says even though I've been a continuous TapeOp subscriber since issue 10, I only have digital access back to about issues 97 or so (whenever they rolled out the digital subscription), and I have to pay for access further back. Could be wrong.....
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Post by Ward on Apr 5, 2017 6:21:35 GMT -6
I haven't dug into it, but memory says even though I've been a continuous TapeOp subscriber since issue 10, I only have digital access back to about issues 97 or so (whenever they rolled out the digital subscription), and I have to pay for access further back. Could be wrong..... It almost sounds like there's no point in joining now.
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