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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 26, 2017 22:07:40 GMT -6
Glad to hear that kcat.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Jan 27, 2017 6:31:00 GMT -6
no one really believes how 3D the symphony sounds when you tell someone about it compared to other converters. I'm glad I'm not the only person who hears it now. Seriously, if you thought you were getting something good when you dropped 2.5K or 3K on an Apollo, you should've listened to a used Symphony MK1 first, especially since they're selling for about 21-2300 used
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Post by sozocaps on Jan 27, 2017 10:03:12 GMT -6
Got my db25 cables today so hooked things up and rewired patchbay. I feel I got a little lucky grabbing the symphony mkii. I had been thinking about a future without the Apollo so got the wa412 to not miss Apollo pres. And I was prepared to jump and take the risk but luckily sold my Apollo without too much difficulty. So far I find its the extra dimensionality of the soundstage and the increased awareness of where things are in the Soundstage that striking me and a natural musicality to the sound. Very pleased ! I listened to the MKii vs Avid HD clips and this is what I thought... The weight and timber of the instrument was correctly and naturally preserved with the MKii. Listen to 140-147 seconds... especially the toms. I need to hear my next converters next to the live feed off the board as a direct comparison though... Funny thing... Newest converters out 2017 already passed the spec of the King the MKii (and the Merging) www.audiotechnology.com.au/wp/index.php/apogee-symphony-io-mk-ii-professional-converter/Above....
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 27, 2017 13:11:21 GMT -6
Johnkenn why do you feel gear makes you pro? You are a serious pro with or without a Hilo...You have amazing talent that you are blessed with. I have heard clips on GS from maybe 2011-2012 when you say you didnt know what you were doing and your recordings/ singing was stellar and both have only improved since then as you have honed your craft and worked at producing better records/ vocals! I agree the Upton -> Helios -> Sta -> Symph ( not sure what Ad you use ) sounds amazing on you, however so did the unmodded cv4 way back when... I know the gear the matters, it does, however it doesn't classify you or your skill level. We have seen CLA do CLA on SSL and on only Slate plugs.. That's the exact same comparison with you I made before about hearing youvia stock cv4 chain and hearing you via Upton chain, it's still you Well, thank you, but I was just being silly. I don't REALLY think lacking anything precludes you from being professional. Btw - I no longer have the Helios or the Symphony...sigh. [/quote I know there are reasons for you flipping and selling certain pieces of HW, however the end result is still you with whatever chain. I could put a warm audio 87 into a stock Apollo pre up on you and i guarantee I get incredible JohnKenn recordings!
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Post by mikec on Jan 27, 2017 13:13:56 GMT -6
Hey Kcat, glad to hear you got your Symphony MKII. I had no complaints at all with my Apollo 16 BF and have no doubt it would accomplish everything I needed, but could not stop obsessing over the Symphony MKII. My wife said to just get it (she is a real keeper) so I did and noticed immediately that it just made things easier to mix due to my perceived depth and clarity. I hope you are enjoying your's and much as I am enjoying mine.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 27, 2017 14:25:06 GMT -6
There has got to be some way to measure these differences in converters aside from an abc which would just tell you which converter you prefer... Shouldn't a A/D converter just convert to digital, how does a converter add depth and clarity? Or is the other converter destroying depth and clarity, because if one isn't adding then the other must be taking away from the analog recording right ?
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Post by sozocaps on Jan 27, 2017 14:29:03 GMT -6
There has got to be some way to measure these differences in converters aside from an abc which would just tell you which converter you prefer... Shouldn't a A/D converter just convert to digital, how does a converter add depth and clarity? Or is the other converter destroying depth and clarity, because if one isn't adding then the other must be taking away from the analog recording right ? Yep, it gets out of the way; But it never can completely ...
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 27, 2017 14:31:26 GMT -6
There has got to be some way to measure these differences in converters aside from an abc which would just tell you which converter you prefer... Shouldn't a A/D converter just convert to digital, how does a converter add depth and clarity? Or is the other converter destroying depth and clarity, because if one isn't adding then the other must be taking away from the analog recording right ? It gets out of the way.... Can you please add some type of factual info, that's what I am asking. I'm sorry I don't believe one converter knows how to get out of the way and others don't ... I am sorry what does that even mean in regards to A/D conversion ," it gets out of the way "
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 27, 2017 14:47:20 GMT -6
What you guys are talking about is monitoring through the DA, right? I mean, kcat is talking up the depth and clarity without having tracked anything, and when mikec is talking about making things easier to mix due to a perceived depth and clarity, you guys are talking about the DA. (and I know that AD comes into play when tracking, but no one's really talking about tracking). I have a pretty kick ass DA hanging from my BF Apollo 16 MKII, so in effect, I'm coming in a lot closer to the Symphony for less $$.
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 27, 2017 14:49:55 GMT -6
It gets out of the way.... Can you please add some type of factual info, that's what I am asking. I'm sorry I don't believe one converter knows how to get out of the way and others don't ... I am sorry what does that even mean in regards to A/D conversion ," it gets out of the way " I think he's talking in terms of "color", which can mean different things (smear, clarity, muffled, freq bumps, brightness, high end loss, transient shaving, etc). A transparent converter would "get out of the way".
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Post by Guitar on Jan 27, 2017 14:54:10 GMT -6
I've got to say, that Symphony MK II aced that test, absolutely no questions. Very impressive sound for the true connoisseur.
It's interesting me that conversion quality doesn't really manifest in terms of tonality and timbre as much as space and realism.
I was listening to some old 1981 digital recordings and you could really hear it. This sort of shrunken sound quality. The album still sounded like good music, mind you.
When I first started using high end DACs the thing that struck me immediately was the power of the bass, even though frequency response was not really a factor, conversion being flat or what have you.
Anyway fascinating stuff.
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Post by ragan on Jan 27, 2017 15:02:39 GMT -6
I've got to say, that Symphony MK II aced that test, absolutely no questions. Very impressive sound for the true connoisseur. It's interesting me that conversion quality doesn't really manifest in terms of tonality and timbre as much as space and realism. I was listening to some old 1981 digital recordings and you could really hear it. This sort of shrunken sound quality. The album still sounded like good music, mind you. When I first started using high end DACs the thing that struck me immediately was the power of the bass, even though frequency response was not really a factor, conversion being flat or what have you. Anyway fascinating stuff. Which test, Monkeyxxx?
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Jan 27, 2017 15:10:54 GMT -6
When I first started using high end DACs the thing that struck me immediately was the power of the bass, even though frequency response was not really a factor, conversion being flat or what have you. That's all about the power capability of the line stage and how well RFI from the digital stage is kept out of the analog stage and its power supply. A lot of them depend on common mode rejection to do that and hooking them up unbalanced sounds thin.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 27, 2017 15:12:02 GMT -6
I've got to say, that Symphony MK II aced that test, absolutely no questions. Very impressive sound for the true connoisseur. It's interesting me that conversion quality doesn't really manifest in terms of tonality and timbre as much as space and realism. I was listening to some old 1981 digital recordings and you could really hear it. This sort of shrunken sound quality. The album still sounded like good music, mind you. When I first started using high end DACs the thing that struck me immediately was the power of the bass, even though frequency response was not really a factor, conversion being flat or what have you. Anyway fascinating stuff. Which test, Monkeyxxx? The one that was posted earlier in this thread. Apparently I missed the whole second page of replies before I posted. I also liked the reviewer's general attitude about conversion, especially including the "guy that doesn't really care" because there are just so many of those out there, it's a voice that needs to be mentioned. But when you get down to the nitty gritty the Symphony "blows away" the Scareltt and the Avid HD.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 27, 2017 15:14:54 GMT -6
The one that was posted earlier in this thread. Apparently I missed the whole second page of replies before I posted. I also liked the reviewer's general attitude about conversion, especially including the "guy that doesn't really care" because there are just so many of those out there, it's a voice that needs to be mentioned. But when you get down to the nitty gritty the Symphony "blows away" the Scareltt and the Avid HD. The UH7k blows away the Scarlett too.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 27, 2017 15:20:30 GMT -6
Can you please add some type of factual info, that's what I am asking. I'm sorry I don't believe one converter knows how to get out of the way and others don't ... I am sorry what does that even mean in regards to A/D conversion ," it gets out of the way " I think he's talking in terms of "color", which can mean different things (smear, clarity, muffled, freq bumps, brightness, high end loss, transient shaving, etc). A transparent converter would "get out of the way". The new smyph mk2 may be pristine but Apogee is known to have color in their converter circuits meaning it's adding to the recording no? sozocaps svart kcatthedog ragan mikec veggieryan any thoughts guys? I don't believe one A/D can get out of the way meaning it doesn't affect what is captured.. Ok so if we take that theory , that means every other converter is broken. Which also means the converters are causing degradations ( subtraction ) to the analog recording and or its adding distortion, smear, artifacts, w/e... Sorry I don't believe this greatness or magnitude at all. It maybe be more like microscopic, I don't believe the absolute statements being made.. Testing can prove whether an A/D converter is adding or subtracting away from the analog recording... flipping phase on the analog only vs analog to digital transfer will show that right? How many times does it take to actually degrade Tom your analog only signal via ad/da conversion trips... Didn't ragan say it took over ten roundtrips him to hear degradation every time? How is it that Apogee is the only converter that adds depth and clarity and yet also gets out of the way at the same time ? Really? This is RGO guys not GS, Are you guys reading what you are typing 🤓🤠😳
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Post by Guitar on Jan 27, 2017 15:23:49 GMT -6
The one that was posted earlier in this thread. Apparently I missed the whole second page of replies before I posted. I also liked the reviewer's general attitude about conversion, especially including the "guy that doesn't really care" because there are just so many of those out there, it's a voice that needs to be mentioned. But when you get down to the nitty gritty the Symphony "blows away" the Scareltt and the Avid HD. The UH7k blows away the Scarlett too. Absolutely! In every way except for sheer amounts of I/O. It's by far my favorite affordable thing and I think it's a tough contest for even the super high end stuff.
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Post by ragan on Jan 27, 2017 15:24:23 GMT -6
I think he's talking in terms of "color", which can mean different things (smear, clarity, muffled, freq bumps, brightness, high end loss, transient shaving, etc). A transparent converter would "get out of the way". The new smyph mk2 may be pristine but Apogee is known to have color in their converter circuits meaning it's adding to the recording no? I don't believe one A/D can get out of the way meaning it doesn't affect what is captured.. Ok so if we take that theory , that means every other converter is broken. Which also means the converters are causing degradations ( subtraction ) to the analog recording and or its adding distortion, smear, artifacts, w/e... Sorry I don't believe this at all.. Testing can prove whether an A/D converter is adding or subtracting away from the analog recording... flipping phase on the analog only vs analog to digital transfer will show that right? How many times does it take to actually degrade Tom your analog only signal via ad/da conversion trips... Didn't ragan say it took over ten roundtrips him to hear degradation every time? How is it that Apogee is the only converter that adds depth and clarity and yet also gets out of the way at the same time ? Really? This is RGO guys not GS, Are you guys reading what you are typing 🤓🤠😳 You're misunderstanding. When a converter is doing a really top rate job of capturing audio ("getting out of the way"), the individual sounds it captures are nuanced and natural. Add up all those individual sounds into a mix and you get the aforementioned, depth, clarity, realism, etc.
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Post by ragan on Jan 27, 2017 15:26:30 GMT -6
The one that was posted earlier in this thread. Apparently I missed the whole second page of replies before I posted. I also liked the reviewer's general attitude about conversion, especially including the "guy that doesn't really care" because there are just so many of those out there, it's a voice that needs to be mentioned. But when you get down to the nitty gritty the Symphony "blows away" the Scareltt and the Avid HD. Oh gotcha. I didn't notice that was posted here. Yeah, the MKII really sounds incredible there. Listen to the nuance/detail of the snare drum vs the Avid. It goes sort of 'further back' into the center. That and all the other things mentioned. Big, natural soundstage.
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Post by indiehouse on Jan 27, 2017 15:27:29 GMT -6
I think he's talking in terms of "color", which can mean different things (smear, clarity, muffled, freq bumps, brightness, high end loss, transient shaving, etc). A transparent converter would "get out of the way". The new smyph mk2 may be pristine but Apogee is known to have color in their converter circuits meaning it's adding to the recording no? sozocaps svart kcatthedog ragan mikec veggieryan any thoughts guys? I don't believe one A/D can get out of the way meaning it doesn't affect what is captured.. Ok so if we take that theory , that means every other converter is broken. Which also means the converters are causing degradations ( subtraction ) to the analog recording and or its adding distortion, smear, artifacts, w/e... Sorry I don't believe this greatness or magnitude at all. It maybe be more like microscopic, I don't believe the absolute statements being made.. Testing can prove whether an A/D converter is adding or subtracting away from the analog recording... flipping phase on the analog only vs analog to digital transfer will show that right? How many times does it take to actually degrade Tom your analog only signal via ad/da conversion trips... Didn't ragan say it took over ten roundtrips him to hear degradation every time? How is it that Apogee is the only converter that adds depth and clarity and yet also gets out of the way at the same time ? Really? This is RGO guys not GS, Are you guys reading what you are typing 🤓🤠😳 Totally agree with you. I was just trying to explain what "color" vs "transparency" meant in my interpretation of "gets out of the way".
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 27, 2017 15:36:32 GMT -6
@chase not certain where you are going with that point ? I am only talking about my personal experience in the same room with: an sf apollo 8, same one modded by bla, a 2192, a b2 bomber, with and without either the 2192, b2 adn or bla micro clock as master, a dbox ,a BF apollo and now the symphony mkii. So, I was really just thinking ok how does the symphony mkii sound different playing the same session that a week ago I was playing ( same everything else) on my bf apollo. Remember that the symphony mkii is essentially more than twice the price of the apollo, part for part ,not including pres and dsp, I find it hard to believe the the two units should be expected to sound identical ?
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Post by sozocaps on Jan 27, 2017 15:39:39 GMT -6
Ok... 24 bit has a theoretical dynamic range and noise floor of 144db... The absolute closest AD/DA I have seen is the new AKM AK5578 8 channel converter running all eight channels in parallel to achieve a very impressive 130db Dynamic range spec. That would mean you need 16x 8 channel chips running in 8-1 mode with super clean layout, great analog section with isolate power and filtering, clock sync between them all, power supply rails with super great separation, filtering to achieve this...
Now ask yourself what the noise floor on your mic (U87Ai {94 dB SPL} or preamp(Neve -83dBu) is... not even as good as 16 bit...
you gain a small percentage with conversion purchases as they are SO low in distortion......
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 27, 2017 15:45:29 GMT -6
The new smyph mk2 may be pristine but Apogee is known to have color in their converter circuits meaning it's adding to the recording no? I don't believe one A/D can get out of the way meaning it doesn't affect what is captured.. Ok so if we take that theory , that means every other converter is broken. Which also means the converters are causing degradations ( subtraction ) to the analog recording and or its adding distortion, smear, artifacts, w/e... Sorry I don't believe this at all.. Testing can prove whether an A/D converter is adding or subtracting away from the analog recording... flipping phase on the analog only vs analog to digital transfer will show that right? How many times does it take to actually degrade Tom your analog only signal via ad/da conversion trips... Didn't ragan say it took over ten roundtrips him to hear degradation every time? How is it that Apogee is the only converter that adds depth and clarity and yet also gets out of the way at the same time ? Really? This is RGO guys not GS, Are you guys reading what you are typing 🤓🤠😳 You're misunderstanding. When a converter is doing a really top rate job of capturing audio ("getting out of the way"), the individual sounds it captures are nuanced and natural. Add up all those individual sounds into a mix and you get the aforementioned, depth, clarity, realism, etc. Nope. You are saying by a converter being true to its analog source this adds depth clarity and space. I definitely understand what you guys are saying and none of it makes sense... How can one converter add depth clarity space, sounds like signal processing to me. How about the converter is "true to the analog source".. what's wrong with that. So the symphony is responsible for those tones, nuances, and natural captures? It's not the player, instrument, room, signal chain, and Eng ears choosing great mic and mic placement? It's funny its the Apogee Symphony 2 as well, so burl, merging, dad, focusrite rednet, Avid and definitely SF Apollo are all broken or not getting out of the way of the analog capture? They are all somehow obstructing the full analog capture and degrading the clarity depth and space? If a converter is adding something to your signal then it's not converting its processing your audio... How do you plan for this added depth and clarity? What if I don't need the added space on this one guitar track? Does the clarity space and depth just shows up in all the right places? All I'm ever trying to do is learn to better myself so I can perfect my craft as an artist and engineer. I am not dumb by any means and the semantics you guys are using is Slate like. I am asking honest questions, where are the honest answers.. So the Apogee symphony mk2 captures so true to the analog source which allows all the nuances to be heard.... ya so do 20 other converters that aren't flavor of the day here on RGO...
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Post by Guitar on Jan 27, 2017 15:50:31 GMT -6
Chase, nothing is broken.
Think about it as improving technology. The same way computers and phones have been getting better every year at a rapid pace. Nothing is per se wrong with older conversion. But newer designs are getting "better" and better. There's nothing too weird about that, it's just the way digital technology is evolving.
Bob Olhsson is pointing at some concrete examples of specific engineering technical details to be aware of. This stuff is measurable, to some degree.
And just like new CPUs will come out every year, the same is true for the components involved in a digital audio interface. It is the job of the design team to make the best of whatever is available.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 27, 2017 15:53:48 GMT -6
@chase not certain where you are going with that point ? I am only talking about my personal experience in the same room with: an sf apollo 8, same one modded by bla, a 2192, a b2 bomber, with and without either the 2192, b2 adn or bla micro clock as master, a dbox ,a BF apollo and now the symphony mkii. So, I was really just thinking ok how does the symphony mkii sound different playing the same session that a week ago I was playing ( same everything else) on my bf apollo. Remember that the symphony mkii is essentially more than twice the price of the apollo, part for part ,not including pres and dsp, I find it hard to believe the the two units should be expected to sound identical ? I don't expect them to sound the same; different analog circuits and different converters. The converter is not adding air that the Apollo wasn't... Flipping phase on your recordings will prove it's the exact same mix.. Now if you run the mix out of your DA to your AD and run it hot with soft limit engaged then they will not cancel out due to the conversion pass and added w/e from the analog circuitry. The symphony DA is different ( better to you ) ( subjective) than the Apollo causing you to hear your mix different than you previously did, the mix didn't change. It's hard for me to believe one converter was affecting the clarity depth and space so much, that's what I am trying to learn about not subjective hearsay. Thanks for your answer bro
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