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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 31, 2016 23:29:56 GMT -6
I vaguely recall a few people mentioning they write automation in Logic using Waves Vocal Rider or Bass Rider, and then fine tune that automation, I'd like to try that one of these days.
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Post by popmann on Jan 1, 2017 0:04:33 GMT -6
25 years hasn't been with one system or two.....or three. I'm asking questions because there seem to be some really odd omissions from someone who has recorded and mixed multitrack audio for a long time....and because I AM interested in how people work--I actually assume I'm missing something. Which is why I ask. If you actually read....I've found that a combination of the folder tracks with the "single" view of the mixer achieves something similar. Something that literally NO ONE here recommended. I mean they did folder tracks, but I was aware of that--as it's in EVERY app....the "single" view of the mix in combination was the key....it's still not really individual views, but functionally it's close enough for rock and roll, I think.
I bought this as an auto human tempo beat mapping drum machine for demos. I obviously have the hopes of it being more....I can always spit out timestamped PCM files of the drums if it comes down to that being the only benefit. But, I'm not expecting that to be the case.....
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Jan 1, 2017 0:06:51 GMT -6
are you looking for a feature like in ProTools' mixer where you can show/hide channels separately from the Arrange window?
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Post by popmann on Jan 1, 2017 0:32:14 GMT -6
Actually, I don't care if it's seperate-as I'm not looking at the arrange window while mixing....but, yes--to define what I see in the mixer, and switch between definitions.
Button one=- channel 5, 6,7 and buss 3. Button two= all aux button three channel 6, 9, 10, and 12 and buss 5
I use numbers to illustrate it's simple views. What's in the view-is put on the fader controllers. It's the only way fader controllers (beyond one fader) are useful. However YOUR brain wants to organize or carve up the mixer. Maybe you like to se this view of just the high hat mic, lead vocal , string summing buss, and bass....I dunno why you'd want that--but THAT ability to carry it to creative hyperbole.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Jan 1, 2017 1:58:35 GMT -6
if you assign every track to an Arrange window track (select an aux in the mixer and "Options > “Create Arrange Tracks for Selected Channel Strips.”"), then you can set up folders. that's how you'll accomplish what you want to accomplish. You won't be able to assign keys to switch between the different folders, but within the folders is how you customize your view. this is from Logic 9's manual, but it still applies here and explains how to set up those folders. documentation.apple.com/en/logicpro/usermanual/index.html#chapter=27%26section=16
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Post by wiz on Jan 1, 2017 2:50:20 GMT -6
I want snapshot mixing...
Cheers
Wiz
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Post by M57 on Jan 1, 2017 8:24:28 GMT -6
Actually, I don't care if it's seperate-as I'm not looking at the arrange window while mixing....but, yes--to define what I see in the mixer, and switch between definitions. Button one= channel 5, 6,7 and buss 3. Button two= all aux button three channel 6, 9, 10, and 12 and buss 5 I use numbers to illustrate it's simple views. What's in the view-is put on the fader controllers. It's the only way fader controllers (beyond one fader) are useful. However YOUR brain wants to organize or carve up the mixer. Maybe you like to se this view of just the high hat mic, lead vocal , string summing buss, and bass....I dunno why you'd want that--but THAT ability to carry it to creative hyperbole. Yeah - definitely not possible in Logic. This morning I was playing with the idea of using multiple layers of the 'MIDI Environment' to do what you're looking for and I'm pretty sure that's not a viable solution. Of course, what you want was not possible in the good old days with a big ass console either. That said, if you don't mind moving your chair, (as you say - "as small slide and a reach) sounds like multiple controllers linked in series would at least put it all in front of you. Other than that, the best work flow solution I can think of that comes closest to your needs is to pretty much pair everything down to 8 or so stacks. That way if you want to work with elements from two different stacks, you can quickly drag them adjacent to each other. Having a mixer preset of track 3, 17-19, 46, and two busses is definitely not possible. It's not an odd omission to me, because it was never possible in the analog world, and I'm guessing there aren't that many DAWs that have it either, though I stand to be corrected there. Of course, in the mixer if you select Single you get the chain and all busses used right to the 2-buss, and if you select Single on a stack you get all of its tracks and related channel strips. Hmm I just noticed that switching in the mixer view from Tracks to All moved some of my tracks around to what appears to be a custom order. Need to investigate.. One cool thing I just found this morning is that you can put summing stacks inside of folder stacks.
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Post by swurveman on Jan 1, 2017 8:51:54 GMT -6
God forbid you ever have to sit at one of them there big ass consoles and move your entire chair to get to the right fader. That's where I come from....and that IS the point. In the analog days, everything was right in front of you--at worst a small slide and reach. enter digital mixers. Terrible ergonomics, precisely because what was a reach was now some menus deep to get to an adjustment. The BEST ones were ones that carved up the mixer logically--here's a bank of all the aux and group busses....here's the input mixer button....here's track return 1-12 or 1-16....here's 13-24 or 17-32....and the concept coined but not invented by Presonus with the idea of the "fat channel"--having a single channel of the whole channel that simply adapted to and controlled a focus channel. The combo of these things, replaced the "slide" with an extra button press--the direct bank, channel select, adjust. This is how I've worked for nearly 20 years. I'm not looking for ways to keep a 60 track opus "clean looking", which is what those videos are doing. This is ALL about running everything with a mouse more efficiently. It's been obvious that was their goal for years. Single monitor of a laptop. No controllers. Weirdly, no touch other than Garageband on the iPad. As a side note, I hooked up the MCU last night, rebooted it in LogicControl mode....and started playing. Command+2 opens a mixer in a seperate window....and hitting it again opens a SECOND mixer window independent of the first (and yes--that keeps going). Focusing from one to the other puts the focused on on the faders (by default).....so, screen sets in combination with summing stacks in "single" view might ultimately be the rig that allows it.... But, this is about the controller. And history. I've got 25 years, other than a brief miserable time with a Roland machine where I was a few presses and a turn away from adjusting anything. I live with the VST channel window open so I touch a fader and it changes to that channel--where I can see the plug ins....sends....grab mouse in one hand and Griffin knob in other to manipulate....I'm not coming from software. Not coming from mixing with a mouse. I SEE they're constantly improving THAT workflow....because it NEEDED it....maybe this forces me to work that way. We'll see. Here's a guy using the Slate Raven and Logic Pro X to do what I think you want. Start at 3:35.
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Post by M57 on Jan 1, 2017 10:56:11 GMT -6
Here's a guy using the Slate Raven and Logic Pro X to do what I think you want. Start at 3:35. I don't see where.. Minute/sec??
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jan 1, 2017 11:01:03 GMT -6
Yes, I prefer picking points with a mouse - not drawing - I like the perfectly linear rise and fall of the fader AND I can pinpoint where I want it to peak, etc. As to your second question, Sure - I've drawn curves using the faders on a Faderport and my current, the X-Touch. Just a quick brain appetizer: Why are you automating 8 individual tracks then combining them to a group and adding more automation ... surely compression/ clip gain could be used individually and save automation for stems or busses.... just a thought You making auto moves on ind. tracks and the group auto could be affecting that in a way you didn't hear or think... I would take your 8 tracks folder them then group process. Unless you have extremely huge DR swings I don't see the need for auto on top of auto, seems like a non focused decision that can cause more harm than good, plus having to trace back all the ind auto if you do hear your bus auto affecting ind. automation.
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Post by swurveman on Jan 1, 2017 11:07:12 GMT -6
Here's a guy using the Slate Raven and Logic Pro X to do what I think you want. Start at 3:35. I don't see where.. Minute/sec?? He didn't do the exact thing, but I was presuming that you can use key commands to show separate kinds of tracks in the Mixer like he did in the video just like the OP requested: Button one= channel 5, 6,7 and buss 3. Button two= all aux button three channel 6, 9, 10, and 12 and buss 5 What he's calling a "Buss" I think are called "group" tracks in Logic, correct? Raven can do it with a "button", so why couldn't you do it in Logic with a key command?
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 1, 2017 11:09:03 GMT -6
I think you're right swurveman, the batch commands would allow popmann to do what he's used to doing. For me, I think that moving my arm and using my fingertip every time I wanted to do anything would become tiresome. I like a lot of the features here, but for instance, the accuracy required when writing automation sure would be harder with a finger. The mouse is like having a pencil point to work with. If you can simultaneously use a mouse with the Slate Raven, that wouldn't be an issue.
One thing cool about Logic, so far, their upgrades have been free, and I wouldn't be surprised if they came up with something like the Batch Commander in the next couple of upgrades.
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Post by swurveman on Jan 1, 2017 11:20:08 GMT -6
I think you're right swurveman, the batch commands would allow popmann to do what he's used to doing. For me, I think that moving my arm and using my fingertip every time I wanted to do anything would become tiresome. I like a lot of the features here, but for instance, the accuracy required when writing automation sure would be harder with a finger. The mouse is like having a pencil point to work with. If you can simultaneously use a mouse with the Slate Raven, that wouldn't be an issue. One thing cool about Logic, so far, their upgrades have been free, and I wouldn't be surprised if they came up with something like the Batch Commander in the next couple of upgrades. I think I'm going to buy a Raven as soon as it works on a PC with Cubase. I'll let you know what it's like Martin.
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Post by M57 on Jan 1, 2017 11:20:15 GMT -6
swurveman : But the batch command can only do what Logic is capable of, right? I'm not convinced he could bring up Channels 6,9,10 adjacent to each other in the mixer. That said, it does't look like the Raven uses Logic's GUI for the mixer, so I stand to be corrected there for sure. @martin John Butler I actually would prefer using my finger over the mouse. I'll let you illustrate my point (pun intended). Open up a simple paint-like program, grab the pencil tool and try writing your name with a mouse.
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Post by popmann on Jan 1, 2017 11:29:09 GMT -6
Batch Commander certainly does (see the time refrenced--but, but just beyond where he's toggling the default views--leveraging the ability to combine the type filters, Command+2 (new child mixer window), and lots of hiding and unhiding channels.
I appreciate the input. I have found the answer to the question is "I don't". Fair enough. Ask 100 Cubase users how they use Mixer Configurations/View, you'll get 99 "the what?" responses. I know I use Cubase (although only as a VI host/midi sequencer) for years thinking "why in the hell would I store different views of the mixer"---and then came the MCU with it's bank of direct View recall buttons--and it was like "ah ha!"--it's still not that useful to me when I've had to mix with a mouse. But, then when I asked on the Cubase forum years ago, about how best to set up hardware auxilary channels, the response was "why--Cubase has reverbs?"
This is the thing about "bloatware" DAWs....these mature apps, any given user doesn't use 1% of it's capabilities. It's just a different 1% very often.
I, for example, use a solid 15min of automation in most mixes. I literally never quantize audio and nearly never quantize MIDI---so, asking me about the workflow of doing such things? No idea. In the Reaper thread, I saw someone with 5 "piano tracks" in a folder. And I was so curious how/why anyone would have 5 tracks of piano in a folder. I've actually told people still using hardware systems that the reason software has "won" isn't that it's more capable--at any given moment in time, embedded solutions are ALWAYS more powerful....it's that if you ask "can I do it THIS way?" The answer is more often than not "yes" with the mature apps. With any embedded system, there are limited workflows--THIS is how you do X. You learn that and do it that way because it's the only way to do it.
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Post by popmann on Jan 1, 2017 11:32:08 GMT -6
FYI....pencil is more accurate than either mouse or finger. Garageband on iPAdPro will be the option for that right now. Or any Windows DAW running on a SurfacePro. That said....see my point on asking me about automation. I'm simply talking about technical accuracy of drawing ANY line....I don't use much automation.
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Post by swurveman on Jan 1, 2017 11:57:26 GMT -6
I appreciate the input. I have found the answer to the question is "I don't". This is why I'm gonna buy the Raven. Perhaps somebody will come up with Raven's functionality in an MCU at a reasonable price.
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Post by M57 on Jan 1, 2017 12:16:39 GMT -6
Is this what we're talking about?
He's setting up batch commands to bring up multiple groups, but not individual tracks is specific order.
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Post by popmann on Jan 1, 2017 13:07:32 GMT -6
I appreciate the input. I have found the answer to the question is "I don't". This is why I'm gonna buy the Raven. Perhaps somebody will come up with Raven's functionality in an MCU at a reasonable price. You use Cubase....no? I thought I remembered you having an RME/Cubase/Windows set up? It's there. <v6 they called it Mixer Views....>6.5, they changed it to "Mixer Configurations"---same bank of buttons on the MCU directly accesses them to switch between the first 8. I've never needed more than 8, but the app itself can have as many as you want.
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Post by popmann on Jan 1, 2017 13:12:20 GMT -6
FWIW--the Berhinger MCU rip off omits this bank of buttons. Causing me to chuckle.
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Post by swurveman on Jan 1, 2017 13:36:32 GMT -6
This is why I'm gonna buy the Raven. Perhaps somebody will come up with Raven's functionality in an MCU at a reasonable price. You use Cubase....no? I thought I remembered you having an RME/Cubase/Windows set up? It's there. <v6 they called it Mixer Views....>6.5, they changed it to "Mixer Configurations"---same bank of buttons on the MCU directly accesses them to switch between the first 8. I've never needed more than 8, but the app itself can have as many as you want. Thanks. I don't have an MCU though. I tried to get my friend's Tascam 2400 up and running but it wouldn't work in Pro Tools and marginally in Cubase. I had an Artist Mix but sold it because I still found myself looking at the PC screen a lot and using the mouse. I didn't come from a console mixing background. So, I didn't have any fader love that overcame what I didn't like about the Artist Mix. I got more done quicker with the mouse. Then came the Raven. I like the idea of using a touch screen and having the DAW software in front of me at my fingertips. So, I'm going to buy it. I'll give my impressions of it when I get it. The Batch Commander is a big plus imo. I hope I like using the faders. We'll see.
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Post by popmann on Jan 1, 2017 15:17:59 GMT -6
the mixer views aren't actually related to the MCU. You can switch mixer views/configurations with obviously the mouse, but also map that to any button or free keystroke you want.
You should also look into how you can already program macros and assign them freely.
Load up the Cubase manual(s) on your iPad....where the PDF is searchable....TOC....interlinked via HTML with all the "see pg 456" links that jump you right to the reference....I think you'd be amazed what your app you already own can do.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 1, 2017 15:59:08 GMT -6
I'd thought about using a pencil probably being better than a mouse for some things. I wasn't aware you can do that with an iPad and Garage Band. I think that means it probably won't be too long before Logic can do something similar.
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Post by clonewar on Jan 1, 2017 19:28:38 GMT -6
Actually, I don't care if it's seperate-as I'm not looking at the arrange window while mixing....but, yes--to define what I see in the mixer, and switch between definitions. Button one=- channel 5, 6,7 and buss 3. Button two= all aux button three channel 6, 9, 10, and 12 and buss 5 I use numbers to illustrate it's simple views. What's in the view-is put on the fader controllers. It's the only way fader controllers (beyond one fader) are useful. However YOUR brain wants to organize or carve up the mixer. Maybe you like to se this view of just the high hat mic, lead vocal , string summing buss, and bass....I dunno why you'd want that--but THAT ability to carry it to creative hyperbole. You can have that exact workflow on one or more Avid Artist Mix's and the Pro Tools Control iPad app. In EUCON settings you define fader layouts where you assign specific tracks to specific faders on the Artist Mix units, and then you instantly recall those layouts on the iPad app. In each layout you can leave some faders unassigned so that they'll follow the tracks that you select in the iPad app in real time. Also, you name the layouts (Vox, Drums, Groups, ect) and those names are displayed on the iPad app's buttons to select layouts. The layouts save with the Logic projects, and you can have up to 48 of them per project. The PT Control iPad app is surprisingly good on its own, it's really easy and quick to navigate and adjust your mix, but it's a really powerful combo combined with the Artist Mix. Definitely the most powerful lower end hardware control surface available, provided your DAW supports EUCON (Logic, Cubase, PT, etc).
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Post by mrholmes on Jan 1, 2017 22:35:05 GMT -6
Actually, I don't care if it's seperate-as I'm not looking at the arrange window while mixing....but, yes--to define what I see in the mixer, and switch between definitions. Button one=- channel 5, 6,7 and buss 3. Button two= all aux button three channel 6, 9, 10, and 12 and buss 5 I use numbers to illustrate it's simple views. What's in the view-is put on the fader controllers. It's the only way fader controllers (beyond one fader) are useful. However YOUR brain wants to organize or carve up the mixer. Maybe you like to se this view of just the high hat mic, lead vocal , string summing buss, and bass....I dunno why you'd want that--but THAT ability to carry it to creative hyperbole. As far as I know its not working that way in logic. I organized my workflow in Logic with track folders around an I pad with running OSC and an Apple trackpad. I dont see a problem to jump fast and easy. If Inwant to see all AUX Ch I click on AUX etc. Logic is a diffrent workflow, if you use it you will learn to navigate fast.
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