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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2016 11:16:23 GMT -6
I always find it interesting when people are deeply passionate about a new piece of gear, or if someone says "you need X item to make a difference". There seems to be two sides mainly, one group that says it's all about skill whilst others say it's gear matters the most. Personally I've always been on the fence about it, I've done live tracking with a myriad of gear, I've recorded / mixed on whatever rubbish they had on them for friends and I've used large pro audio gear for professional recordings. Here's the thing, I've been researching gear again and I'm doing the same thing. I NEED API, I NEED this.. Actually no, I really don't. Reason I mention it, I went and tried out some mic's today and I one was a hand held condensor mic that was $500.00. It sounded good, I took in a $100.00 hand held condensor I already owned and solo'd you could tell that the noise floor was higher with the cheap one. In a mix I have to admit I did prefer the $100.00 mic, don't get me wrong the lower end mic market is usually a disaster they usually equate to an ice pick in the ears. But it's something I picked up years ago as a backup mic for live recording, not going to let some $1500.00 LDC's get anywhere near a room full of beered up metal heads. Sure, I have noticed that cheap gear does tend to be a minefield.. Although expensive gear can be the same.! But y'know the same thing happens over and over again, one of my favourite metal bands of all time used a mid priced zoom pedal for all their lead guitar (some recorded on gear I wouldn't give the time of day). Over on GS, there was a blind test between an ART pre-amp and a Great-River and pretty much everyone preferred the ART.. Never seen so much back peddling / excuses in my life after the results were announced. Another example is what CLA was using for years as his converters, whatever you may think to CLA he's managed to do pretty well and you could buy a $500.00 interface today that would grind his old converters into paste. Yes, probably not the best example with such a massive collection of extremely expensive outboard, but y'know the converters couldn't of made THAT much of a difference. So where does this leave me? Personally I believe it's whatever's best for the task at hand whether expensive or not, for example when I used Samplitude in the past there's a delay called Ecox. It is probably one of the best delay's I have ever heard period, amazing on vocals and it really does make all the difference. I was lost in Pro Tools, I had to pay $1000+ to finally find a decent alternative which was UAD's cooper time cube. Now I can't get out of the UAD system because I can't live without that plugin. Same goes for specific mic's, I sound rubbish on certain mic's. But price seems largely irrelevant, some things work and others simply do not.. Very long way of saying whatever works for you .. P.S there are some things you can't get away with, instruments / amps etc. are some of them. We all know it starts from the source.. Anyway, happy holidays everyone.!
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Post by EmRR on Dec 23, 2016 11:47:55 GMT -6
I am overrun with gear. I don't have 'all today's hot toys'. I could change it all out and get in fashion, and it would sound....a little different. I could use a building more than anything else. Doubtful it will ever happen. Should I quit?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2016 12:04:44 GMT -6
I am overrun with gear. I don't have 'all today's hot toys'. I could change it all out and get in fashion, and it would sound....a little different. I could use a building more than anything else. Doubtful it will ever happen. Should I quit? Right there with you, I have a fully treated room but it's too small.. The first thing on my gear list in "reality" is a new house . You can work around it though (to a certain extent), I tend to go for smaller monitors and try to place treatment so I don't get buildup / standing waves in area's and do the best I can with what I have. On a side note, I do believe quite a few of us like talking about and aquiring gear as much as we like making music. Shopping impulses and doing research can actually be quite enjoyable, although as you said you might not actually end up improving sonics just sidestepping with a different flavour.
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Post by EmRR on Dec 23, 2016 12:25:36 GMT -6
Yep, buying toys is a quick psych fix/boost. Tough to break.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 23, 2016 13:03:02 GMT -6
The rules:
1. Skill and performance trump gear every time.
2. #1 notwithstanding, gear is still important.
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Post by Johnkenn on Dec 23, 2016 22:12:54 GMT -6
I think great gear can get you to where you want to be quicker than cheaper gear...but you need experience and an ear to know where "where" is.
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Post by swurveman on Dec 24, 2016 8:20:10 GMT -6
For me, some of it is wanting to know what great, classic gear sounds like. I'd never bought an LA2A and didn't know what it sounded like. So, I bought one. Now I know. Yes, perhaps there are less expensive clones, but I'm keeping my LA2A. If I want another one, I'll buy a clone. Then I'll know.
The key to GAS financially is to know how to spot good deals and then turn them around quickly if you don't like them by selling with minimal losses. That takes skill imo. I think it's easier with classics that don't lose their value much. It's much more difficult spotting and staying away from what is the the latest and greatest but gone tomorrow item and what is the latest and greatest and going to stay that way item.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2016 10:55:30 GMT -6
I think great gear can get you to where you want to be quicker than cheaper gear...but you need experience and an ear to know where "where" is. I believe it's application specific, some times you can get there quicker with cheaper gear. The other issue being past a certain level of sonic quality, it's very subjective. One of the best (modern) mixes I've heard came off the back of a Mackie 1640i with nothing but ITB plugs. But that being said, out of all mixes ever made in Rock / Metal some of the 80's stuff sounds far superior to what comes out in general today. But it's ultimatley a mix of things, home recording in the 80's wasn't anything like it was today. Chances are if you listened to a song on tape / record / vynl or early CD it would of been made by professionals, tracked in a good room with the best mic's and mixed via decent outboard. The cost of tracking in a studio was quite high, so the musicians will of been highly trained and spent a lot on their own instruments and music equipment. As I do / did a lot of rock / metal SM57's, 58's, 7B's, MD421's are generally my go to for most things (bar drums). None of them are particularily expensive as for the lot they equate to the price of one upper end LDC. There's been thousands (if not more) well made tracks cut with these mic's, y'know they're not all wrong ..
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Post by jcoutu1 on Dec 24, 2016 11:08:47 GMT -6
I like trying different pieces of gear to see what I like and don't. The best way to demo gear is by buying used and selling to buy something different.
I generally buy used gear when great deals pop up and rarely sell for a loss. The downside of buying these deals is that sometimes I need to sell pieces that I like to cover the cost of a deal that I grabbed. I've had a few items that I've purchased multiple times now. I've owned the Trident 80B strip twice. I've probably purchased 8 Tonelux compressors at this point and sold a couple, traded a few, and still have some. WA76 three times.
As for the sound, I think better gear makes the process smoother. A carpenter could cut through a board with a nail file, but a saw will provide a better experience.
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Post by tasteliketape on Dec 24, 2016 11:19:46 GMT -6
I've posted this before, I was in Nashville was invited to visit a Grammy winning studio . We are talking gear and I mentioned brand x , (which is not high end but popular) he goes off about what' a piece of crap brand x is would never use this . Next day we visit another Grammy winning studio , walk in there's a rack of six brand x , owner says o yea I used them all over his latest Grammy project. Moral is I think it's what works for you and how you use it. But hey wtf do I know lol
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Post by bowie on Dec 25, 2016 13:53:00 GMT -6
I find it's much easier to say, "It's not about the gear", when you already own nice gear.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2016 18:45:21 GMT -6
I've posted this before, I was in Nashville was invited to visit a Grammy winning studio . We are talking gear and I mentioned brand x , (which is not high end but popular) he goes off about what' a piece of crap brand x is would never use this . Next day we visit another Grammy winning studio , walk in there's a rack of six brand x , owner says o yea I used them all over his latest Grammy project. Moral is I think it's what works for you and how you use it. But hey wtf do I know lol I recently did some blind tests of mixes with sub $500.00 mixes and one with all my expensive goodies.. Everyone preffered the one's tracked with expensive gear, so I'm in the same boat. I am going to post quite a few comparisons of various gear I have, I'd like a broader range to see if it's not me being crazy. Just to note expensive is "relative" I guess to everyone, my "expensive" and your "expensive" can differ greatly. Like the new MOTU lines (1248, 8A) etc. are cheap (IMO) for a mastering grade converter with as much I/O as it does. But over here they are still $1600.00, which is still a fair wad of cash..
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Post by tasteliketape on Dec 26, 2016 18:48:42 GMT -6
I do believe as stated by JK above great gear can get you there faster
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Post by winetree on Dec 26, 2016 18:54:22 GMT -6
"(1248, 8A ) But over here they are still $1600.00, which is still a fair wad of cash.."
Just wondering Where are you located? I'm looking at the MOTU 16a and it lists for $1495.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2016 19:03:17 GMT -6
"(1248, 8A ) But over here they are still $1600.00, which is still a fair wad of cash.." Just wondering Where are you located? I'm looking at the MOTU 16a and it lists for $1495. Not in the US, I checked sweetwater and it's $1495.00 still not dirt cheap by any stretch. tasteliketape Not in every scenario, you may find that some mic's whether expensive or cheap just don't sound great on some singers. Putting an expensive LDC on a guitar cab doesn't necessarily mean it's going to sound better than an SM57 / MD421 combo which has been tried and tested. If we take it out of context and say great gear makes things quicker, not necessarily expensive gear then I'd agree completely. Although that's what he might be saying anyway??!
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Post by tasteliketape on Dec 26, 2016 19:10:55 GMT -6
Shadowamd , well yes that's what I should have said I had a nice mic selection once and nothing worked on this one singer I put up a 99$ ribbon mic just because that's all I had left and damn there it was perfect.
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Post by rowmat on Dec 26, 2016 19:33:09 GMT -6
KM84's, Bock 251, Flea 47 and Twin Servo pre's would be the pieces of gear I would part with last.
Overall they probably excel in their own areas more than anything I have.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2016 0:32:31 GMT -6
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Post by Ward on Dec 29, 2016 9:28:43 GMT -6
Yes, that was a cute one...
but the telling thing is how something translates to a mix, not how it sounds on its own. As much as I might believe otherwise, I can't always hear what makes a microphone so great on its own, but I sure as heck can when it gets in a mix.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2016 8:31:49 GMT -6
Yes, that was a cute one... but the telling thing is how something translates to a mix, not how it sounds on its own. As much as I might believe otherwise, I can't always hear what makes a microphone so great on its own, but I sure as heck can when it gets in a mix. Edit: So I made a recording with a cheap handheld LDC, it sounds pretty good. Hooked up the Mojave tonight and the handheld sounds like **** in a proper mix. It's been a while, still experimenting. If nothing else though I might buy another Mojave just as a spare..
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Post by svart on Jan 1, 2017 10:57:58 GMT -6
My first "big" gear purchases..
Gefell M930 mics and Neve 1272 clone preamps.
HUUUUGE disappointment.
Why?
First off, I never had experience with "good gear" at that point, but reading forums full of descriptions made it seem like I'd be getting finished sounds without doing any work.
Second, the rest of my gear acted as bottlenecks, especially the monitors. If you can't hear what's going on, why would you expect to hear a difference?
3rd, my obsession with the "gear" made me overlook the "mix". I was too absorbed in what each piece of gear was bringing to the mix that I didn't focus on the whole.
It's human nature to find ways to short-circuit the work involved. We are hard-wired to conserve energy and time, it's in our DNA to do so, and be lazy. We also have the drive to be better than one another. That's also hardwired, and it's basically the human form of social hierarchy. Birds show off with complex mating dances and bright colors.. Plumage..
Nice cars, nice clothes, makeup, and even gear are just plumage for humans.. The problem is that marketing preys upon this fact, and "it'll save you time and money" is just appealing to the human need to both shorten the amount of time and energy involved in perfecting something, along with being able to show your plumage to prospective clients, and online forums alike.
So, after being involved in furthering the circle of gear: Buy gear, be disapointed, buy different gear, be disapointed, buy different gear, be disappointed...
I found that it's the nitpicking the details that causes gear lust.
As for the M930's and the 1272's.. I found that it's not the quality of the sound, but how they work in the mix. They just work, and without all the fuzz and buzz and noise and mud. Workhorses that get me further, faster.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2017 13:36:49 GMT -6
My first "big" gear purchases.. Gefell M930 mics and Neve 1272 clone preamps. HUUUUGE disappointment. Why? First off, I never had experience with "good gear" at that point, but reading forums full of descriptions made it seem like I'd be getting finished sounds without doing any work. Second, the rest of my gear acted as bottlenecks, especially the monitors. If you can't hear what's going on, why would you expect to hear a difference? 3rd, my obsession with the "gear" made me overlook the "mix". I was too absorbed in what each piece of gear was bringing to the mix that I didn't focus on the whole. It's human nature to find ways to short-circuit the work involved. We are hard-wired to conserve energy and time, it's in our DNA to do so, and be lazy. We also have the drive to be better than one another. That's also hardwired, and it's basically the human form of social hierarchy. Birds show off with complex mating dances and bright colors.. Plumage.. Nice cars, nice clothes, makeup, and even gear are just plumage for humans.. The problem is that marketing preys upon this fact, and "it'll save you time and money" is just appealing to the human need to both shorten the amount of time and energy involved in perfecting something, along with being able to show your plumage to prospective clients, and online forums alike. So, after being involved in furthering the circle of gear: Buy gear, be disapointed, buy different gear, be disapointed, buy different gear, be disappointed... I found that it's the nitpicking the details that causes gear lust. As for the M930's and the 1272's.. I found that it's not the quality of the sound, but how they work in the mix. They just work, and without all the fuzz and buzz and noise and mud. Workhorses that get me further, faster. I'm very tongue in cheek about this whole thing (you may notice I joke about gear obsession a lot), because end of the day you're just going to do whatever works for you. When someone said to me a pre-amp can make a huge difference that set me off.. I can tell the difference when offered sonic shaping saturation of a higher end pre-amp or when it has it's own signature imprint (hell I bought a Daking with a big DRIVE knob on it for that very reason).. But if you think for a moment a signal amplifier (with no obvious defects / quality flaws) is going to make or break a recording, then we're going to start having a serious discussion. Yes I get that lower end equipment can be somewhat lacking, as said a little hit and miss. Looking at specifications, you'd be better using onboard pre-amps as opposed to a low end pre with quite high noise floors and limited dynamic range. But even the low end pre could come in handy for some things, just not what I personally would like out of it. I've said on GS and other places, I've heard great sounding tracks made on a Mackie mixer. I've also heard tracks made on top of the line gear that made my face make funny shapes, so y'know nothing is written in stone. I see what you've done is gone for a safe bet.. The Gefell from what I know of it is that and I agree, I've bought higher end equipment for that reason so I don't end up trying to waid through the bottom end of uncertainty. It's a good idea IMO, but it doesn't necessarily mean you can't have the same with something that costs far less. It's finding them that's the issue..!
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Post by svart on Jan 5, 2017 14:34:04 GMT -6
My first "big" gear purchases.. Gefell M930 mics and Neve 1272 clone preamps. HUUUUGE disappointment. Why? First off, I never had experience with "good gear" at that point, but reading forums full of descriptions made it seem like I'd be getting finished sounds without doing any work. Second, the rest of my gear acted as bottlenecks, especially the monitors. If you can't hear what's going on, why would you expect to hear a difference? 3rd, my obsession with the "gear" made me overlook the "mix". I was too absorbed in what each piece of gear was bringing to the mix that I didn't focus on the whole. It's human nature to find ways to short-circuit the work involved. We are hard-wired to conserve energy and time, it's in our DNA to do so, and be lazy. We also have the drive to be better than one another. That's also hardwired, and it's basically the human form of social hierarchy. Birds show off with complex mating dances and bright colors.. Plumage.. Nice cars, nice clothes, makeup, and even gear are just plumage for humans.. The problem is that marketing preys upon this fact, and "it'll save you time and money" is just appealing to the human need to both shorten the amount of time and energy involved in perfecting something, along with being able to show your plumage to prospective clients, and online forums alike. So, after being involved in furthering the circle of gear: Buy gear, be disapointed, buy different gear, be disapointed, buy different gear, be disappointed... I found that it's the nitpicking the details that causes gear lust. As for the M930's and the 1272's.. I found that it's not the quality of the sound, but how they work in the mix. They just work, and without all the fuzz and buzz and noise and mud. Workhorses that get me further, faster. I'm very tongue in cheek about this whole thing (you may notice I joke about gear obsession a lot), because end of the day you're just going to do whatever works for you. When someone said to me a pre-amp can make a huge difference that set me off.. I can tell the difference when offered sonic shaping saturation of a higher end pre-amp or when it has it's own signature imprint (hell I bought a Daking with a big DRIVE knob on it for that very reason).. But if you think for a moment a signal amplifier (with no obvious defects / quality flaws) is going to make or break a recording, then we're going to start having a serious discussion. Yes I get that lower end equipment can be somewhat lacking, as said a little hit and miss. Looking at specifications, you'd be better using onboard pre-amps as opposed to a low end pre with quite high noise floors and limited dynamic range. But even the low end pre could come in handy for some things, just not what I personally would like out of it. I've said on GS and other places, I've heard great sounding tracks made on a Mackie mixer. I've also heard tracks made on top of the line gear that made my face make funny shapes, so y'know nothing is written in stone. I see what you've done is gone for a safe bet.. The Gefell from what I know of it is that and I agree, I've bought higher end equipment for that reason so I don't end up trying to waid through the bottom end of uncertainty. It's a good idea IMO, but it doesn't necessarily mean you can't have the same with something that costs far less. It's finding them that's the issue..! I've certainly heard things done on mackie mixers that sounded fine.. for the type of song that was mixed. Sometimes you just get the right combination and it works. However, I also believe that professionally proven gear just gets you further, faster. I've told the story many times here, but the short version is that I once believed that I could produce the level of audio quality that high-end studios get, but using low-end gear instead. I just *knew* that I would be the one to finally make it work where so many others had failed. After many years of failing this, I decided to start buying or building time-proven professional level gear. I decided to make a list. On that list I placed every mic, preamp, compressor, and other effect that I read/heard the pros using. Overall, it's the same handful of mics, preamps, compressors and other effects that they all use, and an overall extremely small portion of the pro-audio marketplace. U87, U47, 57, 421, 414, R121.. 1073, 1084, 312.. 1176, LA2A, LA3A, 160VU, SSL g.. ..And so on. So these professionals, with just about any brand/model of gear to choose from, always end up using the same gear? That's the question I asked myself.. I was forced to acknowledge that it comes down to one major point. They deliver known results that have been tested by many over decades of use, and always work in the majority of situations. I also was forced to acknowledge that most of the lower-level gear out there generally portrays themselves as "getting you close" to some other professional gear. Lots of mics "sound like a U87" while lots of preamps "sound like a neve", etc. However, it's almost always a case of those "sounds like" products work OK on a much smaller number of sources that have been carefully picked for marketing purposes.. Case in point: When I first got my Gefell M930's, I actually thought they sounded kinda boring. Up to that point, I had a couple SP B1 mics that I had bought because they were marketed as audio wunderkind, and they were cheap. They had a lot of HF sizzle, which I mistook as "detail" at the time (I had nothing else to compare to at the time). It took a while before I had monitors and other gear good enough to realize that what I thought I knew about mics was a big, fat, LIE. It really drove home that I needed to focus on using professional gear to get professional results, and for the most part, getting rid of any gear that wasn't on my list and obtaining stuff that was on my list. Once I started doing that, things really started getting easier for me. It turns out I was doing a lot of fighting the problems with the cheap gear, but not realizing it. Muddy bottom end? Gone. Sizzling top end? Gone. Being able to clearly identify frequencies? YES. Being able to identify and work on placement of instruments in the sound stage? FINALLY. This whole process set me back years and years. I'm finally to a place where I worry more about getting bands to rehearse before coming to the studio, and where I worry about getting the vibe of the mix right, before worrying about the gear. I rarely even think about the gear now.
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Post by EmRR on Jan 5, 2017 15:17:35 GMT -6
The guys I know who never worried about the gear are also older guys who always worked in nice well financed rooms, never in anything like a home demo room. They started when there was no cheap gear that passed as acceptable. They could easily be amazed that something like a Behringer Composer was so cheap and so functional, and happily use it. And they do fine work.
My most exposure to nice consoles and tape machines was at the beginning, so I did much worse work than I did a few years later with Mackies and ADATs.
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Post by svart on Jan 5, 2017 15:36:09 GMT -6
The guys I know who never worried about the gear are also older guys who always worked in nice well financed rooms, never in anything like a home demo room. They started when there was no cheap gear that passed as acceptable. They could easily be amazed that something like a Behringer Composer was so cheap and so functional, and happily use it. And they do fine work. My most exposure to nice consoles and tape machines was at the beginning, so I did much worse work than I did a few years later with Mackies and ADATs. I'm sure it works much better this way. This way you "know" what it's supposed to sound like through higher end gear, and you can adapt your workflow to produce decent results with the lower end stuff. I get a decent amount of client-supplied tracks when I mix stuff, and even though modern pro-sumer gear is much, much better than when I started, the average quality of the tracks I receive are much lower than those I would produce from my gear. The problem is that most just can't tell much difference. Some can't hear the difference because they only listen through cheap monitors or because they just don't have the ear for it, while the rest are too proud of their achievement to hear it for what it is.
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