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Post by lcr on Dec 21, 2016 7:28:17 GMT -6
If my latest little project goes as planned and becomes part of the workflow, I would like to pickup a 4 ch. instrument snake. Either straight to straight or straight to right angle. Any suggestions? Something decent that doesnt cost a mint?
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Post by svart on Dec 21, 2016 7:39:19 GMT -6
If my latest little project goes as planned and becomes part of the workflow, I would like to pickup a 4 ch. instrument snake. Either straight to straight or straight to right angle. Any suggestions? Something decent that doesnt cost a mint? New ones come with a cost premium that isn't worth it. Troll around on ebay and you might find one turn up for a decent price. Almost all of my snakes and patchbays have come from ebay for pennies on the dollar.
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Post by kcatthedog on Dec 21, 2016 9:08:46 GMT -6
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Post by Ward on Dec 21, 2016 9:51:40 GMT -6
Wait, so cheap cables are okay but cheap Samson patchbays are a mortal sin? What the hell? They both suck donkey genitalia. And I believe I am unanimous in that.
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Post by Ward on Dec 21, 2016 9:52:43 GMT -6
I got some really nice digital cables from Monoprice. Have not tried this one, but I'd say go for it. They come from China... JINA, Monkey 20. Think about that. They are neither Yuge, Tremendous or great. AVOID.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Dec 21, 2016 13:17:09 GMT -6
local audio store makes xlr mic and patch cables and is it cheaper for me to just buy from them at a dollar a foot per cable vs buying soldering station and materials ? My 15' xlr to xlr mic cable use mogami and neutrik ( real ones ) connectors cost $14.99? Is that a good price? The shorter ones I have for gear are around 5'... for TRS patch i use these www.amazon.com/Hosa-CSS-110-Balanced-Interconnect-Cable/dp/B000068NYHAny good? Prob not even though they are pricey in stores. Dam Sam Ash has been ripping me off at $11 for a 5' / 6' TRS to TRS cable bastards! The 10' above are $6.45 wtf... My sa4000 cables were over $45 bucks... They had solderable/ fixable TRS cables at even higher markup around $15 a piece... highway robbery
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Post by Guitar on Dec 21, 2016 13:31:29 GMT -6
Well, rolling your own is the best option for several reasons. The main two being price, and complete customization to what you actually need. I still find myself buying snakes from other companies as well as decent XLR cables since I need so many. Soldering snakes is not the most fun, but I've done it before.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Dec 21, 2016 13:40:40 GMT -6
Cheap cables never bothered me. I've got some of the ultra high end Mogamis and some ultra low end Live Wires. I'll use whichever is in arms reach first.
If you want to talk critical, let's move away from cables and into monitors and room. My 2 cents.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Dec 21, 2016 13:41:57 GMT -6
I should add that connections do matter. That's why I solder my own.
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Post by ragan on Dec 21, 2016 14:14:51 GMT -6
I'm with Herbie. Ever since I bought some high end cable and they nulled with my cheap Hosa I don't think about it anymore. When I took them back to GC and told the salesguy "They null with my cheap cables" he said "Yeah, some people are more sensitive to the differences than others. What are your monitors, bro?" Not trying to start That Big Tedious Debate, just stating my experience. I just call the guys at Redco and we figure out what would be best. They're great guys. No hacky upselling. When I told one of them my experience with the null test/GC sales dude he laughed and said "that tells you everything you need to know about the cable business." I use the Amphenol ACPS-GN-AU TRS and the AC3 XLRs. I like them better than Neutrik personally. The way they go together feels better to me. Great price too. And then whatever cable is appropriate for what I'm doing. Can't recommend the Redco guys enough.
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Post by Ward on Dec 21, 2016 14:21:10 GMT -6
Well, rolling your own is the best option for several reasons. . BA DOOM PISH!! Monkey's here all week folks. Try the fish!
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Post by Guitar on Dec 21, 2016 14:47:48 GMT -6
Well, rolling your own is the best option for several reasons. . BA DOOM PISH!! Monkey's here all week folks. Try the fish! All right ward, that's enough for me on this one.
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Post by EmRR on Dec 21, 2016 16:42:45 GMT -6
jjinvegas, you should make a yard sale list!
Cheap mic cables are the absolute last to buy, if you're slipping down that slope. I'll use cheaper stuff for install, like rack to rear of patchbay, etc, but NOT for anything that's going to be plugged/unplugged/moved.
Another example about plug differences, even Switchcraft versus Neutrik: I've seen many occasions where the intermittent level fault from an instrument output proved to be a Neutrik TS cable in a Switchcraft instrument jack. Offer them a Switchcraft cable and it all works again.
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Post by Guitar on Dec 21, 2016 16:50:45 GMT -6
Yes the physical size tolerances are wonky from one brand to the next! Sometimes it bothers me, and other times it's so bad to the point of causing audible faults. Just a good thing to be aware of so you can make your adjustments.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,957
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Post by ericn on Dec 21, 2016 18:02:30 GMT -6
I'll admit it I buy Cheap cables for my moms church & the kids school! No matter Good, Cheap or DIY they seam to disappear or disintegrate! I find I'm less disgusted with spending less when I have to address these issues!
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Dec 21, 2016 19:02:39 GMT -6
Redco is usually as cheap as buying the parts. www.redco.com/ I like Gotham 3 conductor and the Redco 3 conductor knock-off.
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Post by johneppstein on Dec 21, 2016 22:01:35 GMT -6
I have some of the GLS cables. They've held up very well over the years, only 2 broken cables at the strain reliefs over many years of use. No noise or anything to complain of either. Connectors have always worked without bad connections. The only complaint I have is that over time the conductors and shield wire get twisted inside the cable jacket making it lumpy. Even super careful wrapping just prolongs the inevitable lumpy cable. It still works fine though. That'sa why you want quality BRAIDED cables, not spiral wrapped. Spiral wrap will shift under the sheath, bunch up and make lumps and unshielded spots and also cause eventual handling noise and microphonics. Quality braided (braided with a high coverage spec) won't. Nearly all mass produced store bought cables (think Proco) are spiral wrap because most braided shields do not get along well with automatic stripping machines. Exception might be cables like the better Mogami and Canare that have an additional conductive plastic shield between the braid and the sheath. It should be noted that this is only from observing the posted pic, as I have not used the Monoprice cable, let alone disassembled it. I'd like to see the insides of the cable and see if it lives up to the printing on the sheath. Not a fan of the fiddly Amphenol style connectors, and have noticed that Chinese connectors of all styles often have inserts made of cheap plastic that melts at low temperatures. I noticed in the pics of the Monoprice cables that the cable was imprinted with "braided shield" and also a relatively high percentage of coverage. Conversely, the connectors looked to me like knockoffs of Amphenol XLRs that do not have captive screws securing the shell to the insert and securing the strain relief. It should be noted that there is a real difference between inexpensive cables and cheap cables, athough the prices may be similar.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 21, 2016 22:51:11 GMT -6
Call me superstitious, or whatever, I avoid cheap cables. The effect of cheap cables adds up, and I found my system was quieter, more "black background" than when I use stock cables. Also, just because a difference can't be confirmed in the short term in an A-B test, doesn't mean real differences won't reveal themselves over time.
Recently I got a new Apollo. The stock cable was the typical $5 power cord gear comes with. I had to rearrange my rack, and was cleaning up when I noticed I had a nice looking PS Audio Power Punch power cord in my bag, it must have been left over from my audiophile days. PS Audio isn't even one of my favorite brands, (I think this cable was used for the projector I used to have), but I figured, well, what the hell, so I used it on the Apollo. Now, the power cord may have absolutely nothing to do with it, but, I really liked what I was hearing, so I decided to leave well enough alone.
Yes, I know, UAD converters have been improved among other upgrades, but I like the sound as is. I thought the power cord was a $75 cable, but I looked around, and the same cable in a 1 meter size was selling used for around $270. Mine is 2 meter, so it must have originally been even more expensive. It might be overkill, but I ain't changing' nuttin now!
I say go for the better cables John. Ask Jim Williams, he can probably recommend a good brand.
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Post by indiehouse on Dec 21, 2016 23:20:27 GMT -6
I'm with Herbie. Ever since I bought some high end cable and they nulled with my cheap Hosa I don't think about it anymore. When I took them back to GC and told the salesguy "They null with my cheap cables" he said "Yeah, some people are more sensitive to the differences than others. What are your monitors, bro?" Not trying to start That Big Tedious Debate, just stating my experience. I just call the guys at Redco and we figure out what would be best. They're great guys. No hacky upselling. When I told one of them my experience with the null test/GC sales dude he laughed and said "that tells you everything you need to know about the cable business." I use the Amphenol ACPS-GN-AU TRS and the AC3 XLRs. I like them better than Neutrik personally. The way they go together feels better to me. Great price too. And then whatever cable is appropriate for what I'm doing. Can't recommend the Redco guys enough. I like this. I buy all my cables through Redco. I actually end up with mostly Redco branded cable and ends. I think it's quality stuff and still affordable.
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Post by EmRR on Dec 21, 2016 23:20:54 GMT -6
If I recall, Jim will tell you to use AES 110 ohm cable for audio, as capacitance is lower, which translates to less treble loss with very long runs. I measured a bunch of cables for capacitance, and indeed AES 110 wire is generally 2/3rd the capacitance of standard mic cable. This translates to a lighter load at higher frequencies.....which is the chief benefit to ribbons of the very hi-Z preamps made FOR ribbons. Some cheap cable I tested measured with significant loading effects at 1kHz, which is fairly alarming.
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Post by ragan on Dec 21, 2016 23:24:10 GMT -6
If I recall, Jim will tell you to use AES 110 ohm cable for audio, as capacitance is lower, which translates to less treble loss with very long runs. I measured a bunch of cables for capacitance, and indeed AES 110 wire is generally 2/3rd the capacitance of standard mic cable. This translates to a lighter load at higher frequencies. Some cheap cable I tested measured with significant loading effects at 1kHz, which is fairly alarming. Interesting. What kind of distances would be needed to manifest that loss in a balanced cable?
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Post by EmRR on Dec 21, 2016 23:29:42 GMT -6
On the surface, pretty good distance, 100's of feet. When you consider the loading effects I measured on 30 foot runs though, it could make obvious differences with ribbon mics and not any at all with very low-Z output condensers or line level signals.
Think of it this way too: 30' mic cable 20' run from wall panel to patchbay 20' run from bay to preamp rack....we're at 70' already....this can be a much higher number in a large facility.
Then there's the runs from preamps to recorder or any processing loops, then if you're analog there's the runs from converters to bays to console to bays to recorder. There's a tiny amount shaved off at each stage, with no individual run looking very long, but cumulative effects can be large.
I don't worry so much about anything other than the mic to the preamp, that one's not a place to save money. Never mind any cumulative dulling effects from wire length, consider the cumulative effect of having a crappy shield, a poorly plated connector that corrodes and has measurable increasing contact resistance and it's own distortion profile, and any microphonic effects within the wire itself. Consider yourself cursing that crappy cheap cable that always knots up and won't coil properly.
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Post by svart on Dec 22, 2016 10:02:52 GMT -6
If I recall, Jim will tell you to use AES 110 ohm cable for audio, as capacitance is lower, which translates to less treble loss with very long runs. I measured a bunch of cables for capacitance, and indeed AES 110 wire is generally 2/3rd the capacitance of standard mic cable. This translates to a lighter load at higher frequencies. Some cheap cable I tested measured with significant loading effects at 1kHz, which is fairly alarming. Interesting. What kind of distances would be needed to manifest that loss in a balanced cable? Ok, lets look at a few things here. I took the specs for Belden Brilliance 8451 mic cable and simulated them. 14.1 ohms per 1000ft = 0.0141 ohms per foot. 170nH per foot. 67pF per foot, worst case. 45R characteristic impedance (although for this, I did NOT model the transmission line, nor a balanced/differential setup, just simple lumped LCR sim) Ok, so lets get real world here and assume a 200R source like a mic would have, and 1200R load like a preamp might have. That makes the -3dB point more like 15.5MHz.. So ok, now lets start assuming longer runs of cable. I'm going to just multiply the 1ft values by the length for the sake of this discussion even though that's not really how it works in real life, and those parasitics would not scale like that.. 10ft: -3dB of 1.5MHz. 20ft: -3dB of 750KHz. 60ft: -3dB of 240KHz, -1dB of 125KHz. 100ft: -3dB of 150KHz, -1dB of 77KHz. 150ft: -3dB of 100KHz, -1dB of 50KHz. 200ft: -3dB of 70KHz, -1dB of 36KHz. 250ft: -3dB of 58KHz, -1dB of 30KHz. 300ft: -3dB of 47KHz, -1dB of 25KHz. Starting to see the trend? it's semi-log since we're dealing with unmatched filters. This will change with every source and receiver! If these were matched source/receiver, you'd extend your freqency response by almost double if the system was matched at 200R.. However, you'd almost HALF it by matching at 600R. In layman's terms, the higher the impedance match, the more "effective" the parasitic filter is. This is important to know. So you see, it's NOT just as simple as using a "good cable". The impedance match matters greatly as well, but since there is NO standard for mic/line impedance matching, you're pretty much just guessing. So, for a 200R mic, like most dynamics are, and a 1200R input like some of the classic Neves are, you can get out over 300ft without too much trouble using a median-spec'd cable. HOWEVER.. As I mentioned above, if you're using line-level equipment with 2K-50K impedance, your distances are going to be greatly reduced. As with mic terminations, there is NO standard for line-level equipment either. Most manufacturers use somewhere between 5k and 50k though, but that can greatly change the characteristic of your cable. So I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the cable is one of the least important parts of the interconnection of the system. The MOST important part is the knowledge of what you're doing, and why you're doing it. You could use the cheapest cable in the world if you knew that you'd have 500KHz of bandwidth going 10ft at 200R. You could use the best cable in the world but still ruin your signal by leaving only 10KHz of bandwidth going 30ft between line-level I/O at 50K impedance. So use this info, buy what you want, but don't be fooled into thinking that the cable is the only thing that matters. What you're doing is creating a system, and the only thing that matters is that the system works well together, regardless of brand, specs or cost. I think you'll find that normal 10-100ft runs of cable will be fine with just about any commercial mic cable. The interconnects matter more, mainly for reliability. If I had to spend money on cable, I'd worry more about the line-level cables. I'd keep them short as possible first, then buy better cables second. However, if you troll Ebay, you can find used lengths of "name brand" cables/snakes for pennies on the dollar, if you don't mind soldering.
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Post by indiehouse on Dec 22, 2016 10:09:24 GMT -6
Interesting. What kind of distances would be needed to manifest that loss in a balanced cable? Ok, lets look at a few things here. I took the specs for Belden Brilliance 8451 mic cable and simulated them. 14.1 ohms per 1000ft = 0.0141 ohms per foot. 170nH per foot. 67pF per foot, worst case. 45R characteristic impedance (although for this, I did NOT model the transmission line, nor a balanced/differential setup, just simple lumped LCR sim) Ok, so lets get real world here and assume a 200R source like a mic would have, and 1200R load like a preamp might have. That makes the -3dB point more like 15.5MHz.. So ok, now lets start assuming longer runs of cable. I'm going to just multiply the 1ft values by the length for the sake of this discussion even though that's not really how it works in real life, and those parasitics would not scale like that.. 10ft: -3dB of 1.5MHz. 20ft: -3dB of 750KHz. 60ft: -3dB of 240KHz, -1dB of 125KHz. 100ft: -3dB of 150KHz, -1dB of 77KHz. 150ft: -3dB of 100KHz, -1dB of 50KHz. 200ft: -3dB of 70KHz, -1dB of 36KHz. 250ft: -3dB of 58KHz, -1dB of 30KHz. 300ft: -3dB of 47KHz, -1dB of 25KHz. Starting to see the trend? it's semi-log since we're dealing with unmatched filters. This will change with every source and receiver! If these were matched source/receiver, you'd extend your freqency response by almost double if the system was matched at 200R.. However, you'd almost HALF it by matching at 600R. In layman's terms, the higher the impedance match, the more "effective" the parasitic filter is. This is important to know. So you see, it's NOT just as simple as using a "good cable". The impedance match matters greatly as well, but since there is NO standard for mic/line impedance matching, you're pretty much just guessing. So, for a 200R mic, like most dynamics are, and a 1200R input like some of the classic Neves are, you can get out over 300ft without too much trouble using a median-spec'd cable. HOWEVER.. As I mentioned above, if you're using line-level equipment with 2K-50K impedance, your distances are going to be greatly reduced. As with mic terminations, there is NO standard for line-level equipment either. Most manufacturers use somewhere between 5k and 50k though, but that can greatly change the characteristic of your cable. So I've said it before, and I'll say it again, the cable is one of the least important parts of the interconnection of the system. The MOST important part is the knowledge of what you're doing, and why you're doing it. You could use the cheapest cable in the world if you knew that you'd have 500KHz of bandwidth going 10ft at 200R. You could use the best cable in the world but still ruin your signal by leaving only 10KHz of bandwidth going 30ft between line-level I/O at 50K impedance. So use this info, buy what you want, but don't be fooled into thinking that the cable is the only thing that matters. What you're doing is creating a system, and the only thing that matters is that the system works well together, regardless of brand, specs or cost. Mind blown.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Dec 22, 2016 10:33:01 GMT -6
Pretty cool Svart. I remember more than a decade back, I ordered a digital cable from The Cable Company, ( Acoustic Zen). They allow people to try a few cables and return them, putting the small cost of them sending their demo cables toward the purchase. I vaguely recall the main guy there mentioning that impedance was much more important than most people are aware of.
I believe the cable I chose was 110 ohms, but it definitely sounded better than the 75 ohm cable. I know very little about the electrical engineering, so forgive me I'm my terminology is wrong, but I did hear a difference, and Svart is probably on to something.
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