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Post by jakeharris on Jun 11, 2017 6:55:35 GMT -6
Midas and KT must be around 50-years old... Warm Audio, barely 5? Plus, these takeovers happened ages ago. Anyway, Warm Audio doesn't have a monopoly on cheap Chinese labour, or UA/Pultec clones. There's been dozens of companies doing it before them, and dozens more still to come... (those extra filter points don't count as innovation = no patent) The original KT would never have used a switch mode power supply. And what the hell are "Midas transformers"? Midas never made transformers. Uli's just slapping the Midas name on stuff to impress people who don't know any better. Midas never made transformers therefore they never will??? That argument is absurd and only seems to apply to Music Group: Same as the argument there's no-one left from KT, with the entire operation and factory still in the UK. There's no scam here, except for what all of you are imagining. Guys, my advice, snap out of it and realise that Music Group can produce better sounding gear for a fraction of the price their competitors charge. Their economies of scale are massive – they can put Midas preamps and whatever else into all their lowend gear, and Behringer stuff is sounding very good these days.
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Post by jakeharris on Jun 11, 2017 7:07:25 GMT -6
KT DN360 was the standard for Analog Graphic EQ since the 80's ! This Behringer / Music Group KT is KT in name only! Nobody from KT of old is left, KT is now Behringer premium vintage reissue channel. Complete crap, and you know it. Not sure why it's so important to smear them, just to keep sales for Warm? In fact, KT is only open today because Music Group bought them. Would you rather have had KT closed and bankrupt? No more factory and jobs in the UK, all finished? And everyone from Midas says it's been a god-send, with Music Group investing properly in their development: Behringer wasn't interested in killing these brands, he wanted a higher-end portfolio.
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Post by EmRR on Jun 11, 2017 7:44:30 GMT -6
A bunch of us are using $15 switching supplies for phantom power with excellent results. I've had several in the field over 5 years with no issues. Hum components from the adjacent linear supplies do indeed show up on the AP, nothing at all registers from the switchers. Well, any noise from the phantom supply will be applied in common mode equally to pins 1&2 so it should cancel itself out unless one of the resistors that feed the phantom to the XLR is off tolerance. And the radiation from the supply shows up nowhere else, unlike the linear supplies inside the same chassis.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 11, 2017 12:19:04 GMT -6
The original KT would never have used a switch mode power supply. And what the hell are "Midas transformers"? Midas never made transformers. Uli's just slapping the Midas name on stuff to impress people who don't know any better. Midas never made transformers therefore they never will??? That argument is absurd and only seems to apply to Music Group: Same as the argument there's no-one left from KT, with the entire operation and factory still in the UK. There's no scam here, except for what all of you are imagining. Guys, my advice, snap out of it and realise that Music Group can produce better sounding gear for a fraction of the price their competitors charge. Their economies of scale are massive – they can put Midas preamps and whatever else into all their lowend gear, and Behringer stuff is sounding very good these days. Jake I'm not dissing the new KT, in fact I have stated elsewhere that Music Group has been good for many of its highend brands! I have no skin in the game and might have a demo on the way ! 1 Midas didn't make Transformers, they used lundhal, Beyer and Neutrik Fact nothing wrong with that , its the history . 2 No body from the days of Terry Clark are left ! Fact the old design team that made KT was long gone before the Days of Bosch or even Telex! Most are at MC2 or XTA! Nobody was better at screwing a Company it's people and recourses than Mark IV ! Hell I worked for a company who's Software Mark IV bought and did nothing with! Here's is something you may not know even the old KT developed very little of their own gear! Up till Mark IV purchased them 80% of their expansion came from squirting other small companies! Until these new Clones I know dealers who in the old days sold KT by the pallet who thought they were gone! Putting money into KT is definitely not the old KT! Like Midas these guys had great products on the board that missed their generation! Everything your saying to prove my point wrong in fact proves my point! But you act like I was negative, ok I'm not a fan of Behringer, they screwed a lot of freinds, but Music Group in its expansion has also saved a lot of good companies and saved jobs of many freinds, but you get the old hands in private you will hear " I have seen this movie before." Also the old KT would never have Built a clone , bought you out yes but never have copied!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 11, 2017 12:24:03 GMT -6
KT DN360 was the standard for Analog Graphic EQ since the 80's ! This Behringer / Music Group KT is KT in name only! Nobody from KT of old is left, KT is now Behringer premium vintage reissue channel. As great as the DN360 was, the earlier KT DN27 and DN27A were even better with all LCR filters. But unfortunately took up twice the rack space of the DN360 and made SR monitor racks rather large. These early KT graphics may have been the best graphic EQs ever made! Behringer has a long long long long way to go to match early KT products. Gary Yeah I forgot the DN27, it's a generation thing I think KT I think rack of 360's ! The BSS really was better than the 360 but everybody wanted 360's ! Funny thing is BSS was distributed by KT at one time!
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Post by jakeharris on Jun 11, 2017 13:47:08 GMT -6
But you act like I was negative, ok I'm not a fan of Behringer, they screwed a lot of freinds, but Music Group in its expansion has also saved a lot of good companies and saved jobs of many freinds, but you get the old hands in private you will hear " I have seen this movie before." Also the old KT would never have Built a clone , bought you out yes but never have copied! What I took from your comment was Behringer bought KT, gutted it, moved it to China, and now they sell clones. That would have been complete crap, but my bad, I misunderstood you. All I'm recommending is for decisions to be made based on sound, not brands. If it's better than Warm, buy the KT instead. If Warm is better, buy that instead. But acting on misplaced loyalties that end up getting you worse sound, would just be stupid.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Jun 11, 2017 14:48:07 GMT -6
jakeharris Are you saying these KT Music Group Analog Clones are made in UK? Idk if it is b/c of typed word or my interpretation but you seem a little defensive of KT when most have stated that they are a great company who has produced great gear.. The KT 76 is $499 new... KT pultec is $499 new... $425 B stock... won't be hard to see if one likes this unit or not.. I haven't used it so I have never passed judgement.. I was more interested in the components of the circuits! Have a good day
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Post by stormymondays on Jun 11, 2017 16:23:30 GMT -6
"Designed and engineered in England" and "Made in China"
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 11, 2017 16:39:13 GMT -6
But you act like I was negative, ok I'm not a fan of Behringer, they screwed a lot of freinds, but Music Group in its expansion has also saved a lot of good companies and saved jobs of many freinds, but you get the old hands in private you will hear " I have seen this movie before." Also the old KT would never have Built a clone , bought you out yes but never have copied! What I took from your comment was Behringer bought KT, gutted it, moved it to China, and now they sell clones. That would have been complete crap, but my bad, I misunderstood you. All I'm recommending is for decisions to be made based on sound, not brands. If it's better than Warm, buy the KT instead. If Warm is better, buy that instead. But acting on misplaced loyalties that end up getting you worse sound, would just be stupid. I will say they bought it for the name, I know many who feared for their jobs, most like MG , but find it different , what KT was wouldn't fit in with modern pro audio, DSP either in a do all drive box, the amp or Powered Speaker replaced racks of gear. The cool Digital single function boxes KT Developed in the past are done! Using KT's talent within Midas/ Turbosound / Lake and others makes Sense and has helped the industry except the new down market Turbosound products. I'm not sure how much of these KT pieces are made in the U.K. I don't know how they would meet this price point with U.K. Labor? I know the higher end Midas stuff is still Built in the U.K., but the lower end is built in Behringer City At the end of the day it comes down to a simple but hard choice, Cheap gear ? Or Western Manufacturing jobs? Like most I want both Damn it ! I can also think of many who are in the trenches would think with the track record of Corprate owned KT is an excellent thing to be as far As one could distance themselves from ! It's funny how Behringer has Made the years of terrible stewardship by others seam like glory days, when they could say they rescued the great Marquis of old and some of the newer up and comers. Do remember, some of us no matter who New conglomerate is fear "big business " in our corner of the economic world, Harman/ Samsung, AKG/ Edge, Sennhieser/ Neumann, EV/Mark IV/EVI/ Telex/Bosch, have all been horror stories to anyone who knows the history, or appreciates the gear that made the Names of their parts famous! I bet you can't find a majority who feels any of the brands gobbled up by these giants can think of a product that was better than what came before ( I would argue Midas XL series is the exception , and Turbosound FLash/ Flood under AKG but that's me)!
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 11, 2017 17:08:52 GMT -6
The original KT would never have used a switch mode power supply. And what the hell are "Midas transformers"? Midas never made transformers. Uli's just slapping the Midas name on stuff to impress people who don't know any better. Midas never made transformers therefore they never will??? My family GP doctor never did open heart surgery therefore he never will? Well, I certainly hope not - not on me, anyway. Midas was a company that was famous for making the finest live performance consoles in the world. They did not make individual components like transformers and did not possess either the expertise or highly specialized technology to produce transformers. There is a lot of rather esoteric stuff involved in the making of audio transformers, including metallurgy and physical design aspects of winding the actual coils that are often closely held trade secrets of the best companies. More often than not those companies that make the best transformers ONLY make transformers (and occasionally devices that are "showcase" applications for those transformers.) Many of the finer points of winding high quality audio transformers are not to be found in textbooks. It is patently absurd to advertise "Midas Transformers" when building transformers is entirely divorced from the company's skill set. Midas always purchased their transformers from established transformer manufacturers. What Uli is touting as Midas transformers" are actually typical Chinese production audio transformers like those found in other typical Chinese audio products that he's slapped the "Midas" name on to impress all the punters who respect Midas because of the company's history building live concert consoles for big tours. Of course Uli does not want to use the actual transformers used in the classic Midas products because it would cost way too much to import them from the original transformer makers in England and Germany. It's going to take a fair bit of time and a great deal of effort to get people who actually know about such things to take his "Midas" transformers seriously. You don't develop that expertise overnight and I seriously doubt that the Chinese have it already. Transformers are one of the weakest aspects of most Chinese audio products. No, but they're so high profile that they definitely make a great target. The truth is, as I said before, the the Chinese are not known for making quality audio transformers and it's a highly specialized field with a lot of trade secrets and proprietary technology. Maybe in 10 or 15 years they'll start getting up to speed. Like they're beginning to in mic capsules. Except, rerportedly, all the technical staff that made KT what they were. And they're already weakening the brand by making "me-too" prosumer products and cutting corners on them, like using cheap switching power supplies. And Chinese transformers. I doubt it. Pretty good for the price, sure, but not of the quality that the brands they have absorbed made their names on. Not even close. "Midas preamps".... ah, yes. Midas was known for making the best preamps available in live sound reinforcement consoles. Midas was never known for making recording preamps. And what proof do we have that Uli's "Midas preamps" even use the same circuitry as the originals? You can bet money they're not using the same, European manufactured, parts, even if the circuits are the same. And I'm betting that the circuits are NOT the same as the ones used in the famous concert boards, either. More likely that any Midas preamp designs they're using were taken from the Venice series, which was their low end "economy" mixer introduced a couple years before the sale of the company and aimed at small venue applications where there was neither room nor budget for one of the more serious consoles. I'm not knocking them - I own a pre-Uli Venice and it's a very nice board for what it is, but it's not much like the boards the company was known for - all of which have been discontinued. But, while technically correct, advertising "famous Midas preamps" about the Venice design is somewhat disingenuous. You can't put the preamp from an original design Midas concert board into a low end product without either seriously compromising the design or considerably raising the price of the product, "economies of scale" or not.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 12, 2017 13:10:45 GMT -6
KT DN360 was the standard for Analog Graphic EQ since the 80's ! This Behringer / Music Group KT is KT in name only! Nobody from KT of old is left, KT is now Behringer premium vintage reissue channel. Complete crap, and you know it. Not sure why it's so important to smear them, just to keep sales for Warm? In fact, KT is only open today because Music Group bought them. Would you rather have had KT closed and bankrupt? No more factory and jobs in the UK, all finished? And everyone from Midas says it's been a god-send, with Music Group investing properly in their development: Behringer wasn't interested in killing these brands, he wanted a higher-end portfolio. Well after doing a bit of research This thing while "designed and Engineered in England" did not save any Manufacturing jobs in the U.K. ! Every internet image and one confirmed unit in dealer inventory says " Made in China " ! As I suspected , nothing wrong with that,
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 12, 2017 15:43:16 GMT -6
KT DN360 was the standard for Analog Graphic EQ since the 80's ! This Behringer / Music Group KT is KT in name only! Nobody from KT of old is left, KT is now Behringer premium vintage reissue channel. Complete crap, and you know it. Not sure why it's so important to smear them, just to keep sales for Warm? In fact, KT is only open today because Music Group bought them. Would you rather have had KT closed and bankrupt? That is a good question. There have been too many great companies that have been bought out in recent years by predatory conglomerates that no longer maintain their previous quality standards while coasting on their illustrious history. What I would prefer to see is thoae companies fall into the hands of serious audio (as differentiated from "audio marketing") people who would work to continue those companies' traditions. In the case of a company like K-T that would NOT shifting their product line to "me-too" products, and more clones joining an already glutted market. Do we really need another cheap Pultec clone? No, not really. Do we really need another 1176 clone, HELL, No! This does not bode well for the furure of K-T as anything but a cartoon travesty of its former self. A higher end portfolio? Making cut rate me-too clones for the prosumer market? Are you freakin' kidding me? As to K-Ts UK operations, yes, I'm sure they still have offices in the UK, but production has moved to China. How else could Uli apply that "economies of scale" thing if he's not using his cheap Chinese labor pool and automated Chinese factory complex? How is this "saving English jobs"? As far as the design department remaining in the UK, tell me, how much design expertise does it take to produce another version of the most cloned compressor in audio? How much design expertise does it take to clone a passive EQ design that's 50 years old? You gotta know that there's no real chance that he's even trying to reverse-engineer the construction techniques of the original inductors because they'd be too expensive to reproduce at his price point. K-T used to create their own products that were the world's finest in their class ( high end live audio) in original design, components, and build quality. Now their new products are me-too clones. That's disgraceful, and would not appear to really need the services of the old K-T design department, does it? Midas does appear to be doing quite a bit better (but nobody wants clones of old live mixing boards these days, do they?), but I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop. It is nice to see the "Midas preamps" - not the really famous, high end ones though, just the ones from the low-end Venice) being incorporated into Behringer products (although the hype is distasteful) because even Midas's worst preamp is light years ahead of the garbage that Behringer was selling before, but that's a hell of a legacy for a company like Midas. We've been waiting, what, 5-6 years or a bit more to see if the leopard was really going to change his spots or if Uli was eventually going to revert to type. I thing we're finally getting an answer. Frankly, I don't think Uli really understands what is required to create innovative, top quality products. I don't believe he thinks that way. By nature he's a mass-market guy.
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Post by jakeharris on Jun 16, 2017 21:50:15 GMT -6
Of course these clones are Made in China, that's where the economies of scale are. Find me anything mass market and cheap, that everyone wants, that's still made in the West, and we can have a conversation about which legacy brands selling them aren't 'cartoon travesties of themselves'.
You also understand perfectly I'm talking about the entire portfolio. Midas, KT and Turbosound still have a manufacturing facility in the UK. Tannoy wasn't so lucky, making it a case by case thing, not a systematic closure of everything in favour of Behringer City. What these brands will produce in the future is anyone's guess, but that shoe you mention, it might never drop. Point being, Midas is still Midas. There is no other Midas to go back to, and there won't be any other in the future. This is it. Jaguar belongs to Tata, Rolls-Royce to BMW, Bentley to VW, 70% of British Railways are owned by foreign governments, and Cadbury's is owned by Americans! Honestly, what's left in the UK that is still British?!
And here's the part you're conveniently leaving out: There would be no Warm Audio or any companies like them, without Behringer. He's the guy who started the entire audio gear in China thing. Speaking of innovation, he changed the way the entire industry manufactures its products. The modern home studio on a dime would have been impossible without it.
Whether you consider that a good or bad thing, depends on how rich you are (or were).
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Post by jakeharris on Jun 16, 2017 21:56:29 GMT -6
I bet you can't find a majority who feels any of the brands gobbled up by these giants can think of a product that was better than what came before ( I would argue Midas XL series is the exception , and Turbosound FLash/ Flood under AKG but that's me)! We can be as nostalgic as we want, but I'm happy Midas desks are still being built, regardless of who owns them. Pretty much no-one else is left.
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Post by rowmat on Jun 17, 2017 0:35:03 GMT -6
'Midas' well call it whatever they like. This business of buying up formerly respected brand names to attempt to give some newly manufactured clones kudos is kinda off putting IMO. By the way I just changed my name to John Holmes
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 17, 2017 1:07:35 GMT -6
I bet you can't find a majority who feels any of the brands gobbled up by these giants can think of a product that was better than what came before ( I would argue Midas XL series is the exception , and Turbosound FLash/ Flood under AKG but that's me)! We can be as nostalgic as we want, but I'm happy Midas desks are still being built, regardless of who owns them. Pretty much no-one else is left. Are they? Can you still buy a new Pro 40 or Heritage? (That isn't leftover stock.) Sure, there are still consoles being made that say "Midas" on them, but are they real Midases? Or just tarted up fancy Behringers? If Yugo bought Cadillac and started slapping Caddy logos and extra chrome on Yugo sedans would those actually be real Caddys? Are those $20 Altec computer speakers real Altecs?
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Post by jakeharris on Jun 17, 2017 6:53:19 GMT -6
'Midas' well call it whatever they like. This business of buying up formerly respected brand names to attempt to give some newly manufactured clones kudos is kinda off putting IMO. By the way I just changed my name to John Holmes Bought KT in 2009, released 1176 clone in 2016... Yep, they're definitely attempting exactly what you describe.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 17, 2017 10:02:18 GMT -6
Another perspective is just consumer choice. Personally, I have always respected entrepreneurs. So, while this might be cheaper, I would rather support say Warm Audio, cus I don't want the smaller innovative guy squeezed out of the market.
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Post by Guitar on Jun 17, 2017 11:26:29 GMT -6
Another perspective is just consumer choice. Personally, I have always respected entrepreneurs. So, while this might be cheaper, I would rather support say Warm Audio, cus I don't want the smaller innovative guy squeezed out of the market. I wonder how "innovative" Warm audio should be considered...
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 17, 2017 11:47:09 GMT -6
Of course these clones are Made in China, that's where the economies of scale are. Find me anything mass market and cheap, that everyone wants, that's still made in the West, and we can have a conversation about which legacy brands selling them aren't 'cartoon travesties of themselves'. You also understand perfectly I'm talking about the entire portfolio. Midas, KT and Turbosound still have a manufacturing facility in the UK. Tannoy wasn't so lucky, making it a case by case thing, not a systematic closure of everything in favour of Behringer City. What these brands will produce in the future is anyone's guess, but that shoe you mention, it might never drop. Point being, Midas is still Midas. There is no other Midas to go back to, and there won't be any other in the future. This is it. Jaguar belongs to Tata, Rolls-Royce to BMW, Bentley to VW, 70% of British Railways are owned by foreign governments, and Cadbury's is owned by Americans! Honestly, what's left in the UK that is still British?! And here's the part you're conveniently leaving out: There would be no Warm Audio or any companies like them, without Behringer. He's the guy who started the entire audio gear in China thing. Speaking of innovation, he changed the way the entire industry manufactures its products. The modern home studio on a dime would have been impossible without it. Whether you consider that a good or bad thing, depends on how rich you are (or were). Actually I remember seeing made in China on Samson, Harman and DBX before Behringer, so Uhl wasn't the first of that either.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 17, 2017 11:54:19 GMT -6
Another perspective is just consumer choice. Personally, I have always respected entrepreneurs. So, while this might be cheaper, I would rather support say Warm Audio, cus I don't want the smaller innovative guy squeezed out of the market. I wonder how "innovative" Warm audio should be considered... I think innovative applies in the sense that they try to follow original design and look for ways to bring good product to market at significant price savings. My understanding is they go to significant efforts to do modern day components,for example, transformers from recognized name suppliers but with performance that rivals the original. So,while I take your implicit point, that there is legitimate derivation there is also innovation in the recreation of key components and in the business model itself.
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 17, 2017 13:13:18 GMT -6
'Midas' well call it whatever they like. This business of buying up formerly respected brand names to attempt to give some newly manufactured clones kudos is kinda off putting IMO. By the way I just changed my name to John Holmes Bought KT in 2009, released 1176 clone in 2016... Yep, they're definitely attempting exactly what you describe. Well, if they were actually going to come out with any really new, original K-T product designs out of those "engineering facilities in England" They've had a good seven years to do it. Have they released any such products? Where are they? I certainly have not seen or heard anything about any new K-T designs. Instead we're given cheap me-too clones of well established (and quite common) designs. How does this utilize the old K-T development team? It doesn't. The only "development" that's really involved is "research" into which corners can be safely (more or less) cut to bring the products to market at a price point sufficiently cheap to effectively undercut most of the competition. My guess is that all of the top talent from from the old K-T development team are probably long gone - really, why pay expensive top level engineers if you're not actually utilizing their talents? A few words about this "economies of scale" thing - There are some types of products that do not benefit very much from "economies of scale". These are items that require precision production techniques, specialized construction procedures that require rigorous monitoring by human beings, and tight quality control. Examples of such items in audio include tubes, premium mic capsules, and transformers and audio inductors. With these sorts of things it's moderately to set up a high volume production facility that makes things that work and roughly "meet spec", but generally speaking they tend to not actually sound that good and/or have long term reliability problems or other unobvious defects. The Chinese do not have a very good track record in these areas. They're getting better - in some cases quite a bit better - but they're not there yet. Their tubes still suck. The majority of their mic capsules aren't, on the average, all that great. So far I'm not aware of any Chinese facilities that are really producing quality transformers and inductors. One of the problems with transformers is that on the surface they appear to be dead simple devices, just a couple coils of wire and a core, right? The thing is that it's unobvious details that are often difficult and/or expensive to implement that make the difference between a great transformer and a really half-assed transformer. Thingd like employing a winding technique that gives a great improvement in audio performance but is physically very difficult to implement properly. You only to compare the difference between a DI equipped with a Jensen transformer and a $15 DI from Banjo Mart with a 50 cent Chinese transformer to see a clear illustration of this. Part of the problem may be that Chinese culture does not have a hundred year tradition of nutty audio engineers making painstaking incremental tweaks to eke the last little bit of audio quality out of a seemingly simple part. And that sort of development usually does not happen in an "economies of scale" manufacturing environment. Quite the reverse, in fact. "Economies of scale" does not really play well with the qualities required to produce a top quality product. You can't get something for nothing. There's always a price. "Economies of scale" is no exception.
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 17, 2017 13:31:26 GMT -6
Of course these clones are Made in China, that's where the economies of scale are. Find me anything mass market and cheap, that everyone wants, that's still made in the West, and we can have a conversation about which legacy brands selling them aren't 'cartoon travesties of themselves'. You also understand perfectly I'm talking about the entire portfolio. Midas, KT and Turbosound still have a manufacturing facility in the UK. Tannoy wasn't so lucky, making it a case by case thing, not a systematic closure of everything in favour of Behringer City. What these brands will produce in the future is anyone's guess, but that shoe you mention, it might never drop. Point being, Midas is still Midas. There is no other Midas to go back to, and there won't be any other in the future. This is it. Jaguar belongs to Tata, Rolls-Royce to BMW, Bentley to VW, 70% of British Railways are owned by foreign governments, and Cadbury's is owned by Americans! Honestly, what's left in the UK that is still British?! And here's the part you're conveniently leaving out: There would be no Warm Audio or any companies like them, without Behringer. He's the guy who started the entire audio gear in China thing. Speaking of innovation, he changed the way the entire industry manufactures its products. The modern home studio on a dime would have been impossible without it. Whether you consider that a good or bad thing, depends on how rich you are (or were). Actually I remember seeing made in China on Samson, Harman and DBX before Behringer, so Uhl wasn't the first of that either. Well, Samson has never been what I would consider good quality, dbx took a hit in the quality department when they moved production to China IMO, and the less said about Harman, the better.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 17, 2017 14:30:39 GMT -6
Interesting conversation:resonates for me ironically cus like 5 years ago when I bought my used chameleon labs 7802 I mentioned this in an email to Bryce at warm he congratulated me but immediately recommended I contact David at Cinemag to upgrade the transformers essentially for the reasons stated above. David then made me some custom transformers as he said he had always wanted to for a tube based circuit. ok by me mr nobody getting some custom Cinemag transformers made ! Bryce recommended what he called zebra 50/50 steel/nickel:sounded smooth and clear !
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Post by jakeharris on Jun 17, 2017 15:05:33 GMT -6
Actually I remember seeing made in China on Samson, Harman and DBX before Behringer, so Uhl wasn't the first of that either. You remember seeing Made in China on gear in the 1980's? Not so sure about that. 90's yes, 80's no.
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