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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 10, 2016 0:02:38 GMT -6
Great song. Pity that Google gives away the clue which is which. But I like the wide-panned version more because it's, well, more wide. The wildcard OTB sounds more clear and full, the ITB smaller and more muddy. At least on cheaper AKG headphones. I changed the names on Google because I gave it a couple days. Figured the majority would be checking it out at that point. Tune I'm working on tonight is sounding miles ahead of my old ITB mix. We'll see how it compares in the morning with fresh ears though.
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Post by Ward on Oct 10, 2016 9:54:31 GMT -6
C.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2016 22:01:10 GMT -6
The only reason I thought B was analog was the way the horns seemed to smooth out for me. Nothing proves analog mixing superior to me anymore, guys who do absolutely amazing work are camped up on PT rigs using just plugins and they get things to work in a way that I couldn't no matter what tools I have. It's all in the technique and ear of the engineer.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 11, 2016 5:16:18 GMT -6
The only reason I thought B was analog was the way the horns seemed to smooth out for me. Nothing proves analog mixing superior to me anymore, guys who do absolutely amazing work are camped up on PT rigs using just plugins and they get things to work in a way that I couldn't no matter what tools I have. It's all in the technique and ear of the engineer. #truth Plenty of guys are getting it done in the box. I'm more comfortable working with real knobs, but strive to get away from them.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 11, 2016 8:14:32 GMT -6
Don't forget, many of those ITB mixes some big shot producers mention were done in top studios, with top mics, with great engineering and much analogue outboard, plus top of the line converters, before mixing "ITB". ITB can include summing mixers, correct? So, that alone can give a whopping improvement in feel without ever touching faders on a board.
Anytime I've heard complete ITB productions, it's usually a modern Pop mix, with massive amounts of tracks competing for air space, with tons of effects. I haven't heard anything with a lot of space and vibe, like Beck's "Sea Change" or Lucinda William's "World Without Tears" from any full ITB production.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 11, 2016 9:18:04 GMT -6
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Post by ragan on Oct 11, 2016 9:20:41 GMT -6
Don't forget, many of those ITB mixes some big shot producers mention were done in top studios, with top mics, with great engineering and much analogue outboard, plus top of the line converters, before mixing "ITB". ITB can include summing mixers, correct? So, that alone can give a whopping improvement in feel without ever touching faders on a board. Anytime I've heard complete ITB productions, it's usually a modern Pop mix, with massive amounts of tracks competing for air space, with tons of effects. I haven't heard anything with a lot of space and vibe, like Beck's "Sea Change" or Lucinda William's "World Without Tears" from any full ITB production. No analog summing for ITB. But yeah, you're totally right. Some inexperienced guys will listen to some major label record that was done in a fantastic room with benchmark mics, pres, EQs and comps on the way in and then mixed ITB and go "wow! They did all that with plugins! Awesome!"
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 11, 2016 9:26:06 GMT -6
Yep. That's why I'm trying to grow a nice outboard system, so I won't need so much ITB. Some plugs are small miracles though, if used well. For instance, the Ocean Way plug works subtly and beautifully to bring a semblance of a real studio to my tracks.
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Post by Guitar on Oct 11, 2016 9:30:14 GMT -6
That's funny, the B mix got a lot more votes in the poll after the OTB identity was revealed... hehehe.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 11, 2016 10:16:09 GMT -6
That's funny, the B mix got a lot more votes in the poll after the OTB identity was revealed... hehehe. A lot is a stretch. Only 11 votes total, haha.
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Post by ragan on Oct 11, 2016 11:17:32 GMT -6
Yep. That's why I'm trying to grow a nice outboard system, so I won't need so much ITB. Some plugs are small miracles though, if used well. For instance, the Ocean Way plug works subtly and beautifully to bring a semblance of a real studio to my tracks. Plugs are great and indispensable! I just don't prefer them for the heavy lifting of real tone sculpting.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2016 21:37:59 GMT -6
Don't forget, many of those ITB mixes some big shot producers mention were done in top studios, with top mics, with great engineering and much analogue outboard, plus top of the line converters, before mixing "ITB". ITB can include summing mixers, correct? So, that alone can give a whopping improvement in feel without ever touching faders on a board. Anytime I've heard complete ITB productions, it's usually a modern Pop mix, with massive amounts of tracks competing for air space, with tons of effects. I haven't heard anything with a lot of space and vibe, like Beck's "Sea Change" or Lucinda William's "World Without Tears" from any full ITB production. When I say ITB I mean it stays in the DAW and it's all plugins and I see it more and more. Joey Sturgis, Jordan Valeriotte, Andrew Wade, Eyal Levi, Kyle Black are all examples of guys who are all 100% ITB and for the majority of their work are recording stuff flat on the way in to the DAW, I'm guessing the converters being used are the Avid ones but a lot of these guys don't express even the slightest concern with it. Most stuff nowadays is that good that it's not going to matter a whole hell of a lot. I believe what you're describing is both the Black Keys album and the 30 Seconds to Mars album where the tracking is mics, pres and ITB (the Thirty Seconds to Mars one used Rhode NT1As for the vocals and overheads and all API 512c so nothing fancy). Lot of guys are over it, even Andrew Scheps doesn't power up his console anymore. It really has less and less to do with the gear. I personally prefer to use plugins on input and have my sound recorded the way I think it's going to be, but a lot of guys way better than I am are more than content to aim some 57s at stuff and just record good performances.
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Post by ChaseUTB on Oct 11, 2016 21:45:28 GMT -6
I thought in the box was created by software and stayed in the computer. for example an in the box production is software based and does not contain real instruments or elements. Ex superior drummer and virtual synths = I have been known to be wrong a few times though
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Post by rowmat on Oct 12, 2016 0:48:27 GMT -6
How many guys here are tracking full bands live including drums etc without a console? Although many have switched over to fully ITB for mixing I don't think I could work without a console when tracking bands.
Being able to quickly tweak a cue mix, monitor mix etc. on the fly using a console is just so much more intuitive than futzing about with a mouse IMO.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 12, 2016 9:11:34 GMT -6
The two dimensionality I've found when I went 100% ITB can be cured by a summing mixer to a large extent. Johnken posted some really good sounding tracks a while back, with and without the D-Box. The D-Box mix was more transparent and 3 D. I can certainly see how it's easy to move it the ITB direction as plugs become better and better. Many have become valid in their own right now.
Not so many people have long term analogue experience though. My first studio experience was at Bell Sound, right where Buddy Holly stood, next was Electric Ladyland, where I used Jimi's Marshall 100, then Plaza Sound, the studio custom built for Toscanini to conduct the NBC orchestra. That studio had a state of the art API board, and Electric Lady had whatever Jimi's albums were done on. I've worked with Trident 80 series boards at studios with all the classic gear we covet. Thing was, I paid little attention to those things then. My point is that analogue tone, including all the major tape decks you can name, (Studer was my favorite), is imprinted on my musical DNA, so I'm extra sensitive to the differences between now and then.
Unfortunately, I'm still playing catch up on how best to use these plugins. A friend of mine with 2-3 dozen Grammy's for engineering and producing came by my place one day a couple of years ago. In five minutes, my tracks sounded better, and it was 100% ITB then.
So high skill can definitely get an ITB recording up to a pro level, but I sure don't think it sounds better. Put a Steve Stills or Pink Floyd album on your turntable, relax for a few minutes, and you'll remember why.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2016 0:07:24 GMT -6
How many guys here are tracking full bands live including drums etc without a console? Although many have switched over to fully ITB for mixing I don't think I could work without a console when tracking bands. Being able to quickly tweak a cue mix, monitor mix etc. on the fly using a console is just so much more intuitive than futzing about with a mouse IMO. This is what I do all the time, it's actually a lot faster because within the Zen Studio's panel I can have a whole bunch of different setups saved and it's just a matter of loading a preset in. To be fair, I'd love a console but every console poses a compromise for me and it's just not a smart business move for me and unless you're in the top echelon of engineers I can't see how it is for anyone else either.
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Post by ragan on Oct 15, 2016 1:14:22 GMT -6
The two dimensionality I've found when I went 100% ITB can be cured by a summing mixer to a large extent. Johnken posted some really good sounding tracks a while back, with and without the D-Box. The D-Box mix was more transparent and 3 D. I can certainly see how it's easy to move it the ITB direction as plugs become better and better. Many have become valid in their own right now. Not so many people have long term analogue experience though. My first studio experience was at Bell Sound, right where Buddy Holly stood, next was Electric Ladyland, where I used Jimi's Marshall 100, then Plaza Sound, the studio custom built for Toscanini to conduct the NBC orchestra. That studio had a state of the art API board, and Electric Lady had whatever Jimi's albums were done on. I've worked with Trident 80 series boards at studios with all the classic gear we covet. Thing was, I paid little attention to those things then. My point is that analogue tone, including all the major tape decks you can name, (Studer was my favorite), is imprinted on my musical DNA, so I'm extra sensitive to the differences between now and then. Unfortunately, I'm still playing catch up on how best to use these plugins. A friend of mine with 2-3 dozen Grammy's for engineering and producing came by my place one day a couple of years ago. In five minutes, my tracks sounded better, and it was 100% ITB then. So high skill can definitely get an ITB recording up to a pro level, but I sure don't think it sounds better. Put a Steve Stills or Pink Floyd album on your turntable, relax for a few minutes, and you'll remember why. You're not wrong, Martin. People tend to go "oh, skill trumps gear" which is true (unless we're talking about truly awful gear) but then they go "therefore plugins are just as good" which is not true. Yes, someone with much greater skill than I could do a better mix ITB than I could do OTB but that's irrelevant to the fact that if you run those drums through the real hardware it sound better than running them through the software emulations. I've done it, meticulously. It's not even that close. If we're just talking sonics (not workflow, not budget, not recall) actual physical gear has it in a landslide.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 15, 2016 8:49:56 GMT -6
Ragan said, "if you run those drums through the real hardware it sounds better than running them through the software emulations. I've done it, meticulously. It's not even that close. If we're just talking sonics (not workflow, not budget, not recall) actual physical gear has it in a landslide".
Some folks just don't want to hear that after investing so much time and money on plugins, so they push back when politely challenged. Also, you can't account for people's listening skills, so what might be a small difference to some, is ALL the difference to someone else. In my Youtube videos I've compared plugins to hardware a few times. First, I'd try with no plugs or hardware. Then when using say.. the UAD EQP-1A plugin, I'd get an improved, and very good quality sound, which by itself, sounded just fine. Then I'd try the Warm Audio EQP-WA, match as closely as possible, and the hardware simply sounded better.
One problem was it's basically the same track, so it's gonna sound like it sounds regardless of EQ processing, so the difference is essentially subtle. The gap closes when comparing the same plug to hardware, so the difference is even more subtle, but obviously, the hardware was more refined.
But now, add that up over a bunch of tracks, and one sounds like a good demo, parts seem separated, and the other sounds like an almost finished record, with parts blending naturally.
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Post by ragan on Oct 15, 2016 10:38:47 GMT -6
Some folks just don't want to hear that after investing so much time and money on plugins... Hell, I don't wanna hear it after investing so much time and money in plugins.
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Post by indiehouse on Oct 15, 2016 10:55:38 GMT -6
How many guys here are tracking full bands live including drums etc without a console? Although many have switched over to fully ITB for mixing I don't think I could work without a console when tracking bands. Being able to quickly tweak a cue mix, monitor mix etc. on the fly using a console is just so much more intuitive than futzing about with a mouse IMO. I do. I've thought about getting a modded soundcraft, but I'm really into making my setup as stealthy and acoustically transparent as possible. I've got a Sterling Modular plan A, and I don't wanna deal with changing things around and messing with console reflections. I use Apollos Console and route my headphones through a Hearback system. I've got 16 channels of pretty badass preamps, and some really choice outboard. The only things on my list is maybe trying out a summing box and a DAW controller, like an Avid Artist Mix. Actually, I wish I had a controller for UAD Console as well. Something sleek and small.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 15, 2016 11:16:19 GMT -6
I'm feeling that Ragan. If I could trade in the plugs I use once a year I could buy something I really need but can't afford right now.
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Post by ragan on Oct 15, 2016 11:26:31 GMT -6
I'm feeling that Ragan. If I could trade in the plugs I use once a year I could buy something I really need but can't afford right now. Man, isn't that the truth. I wish I could sell about 75% of my UAD plugs.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 15, 2016 11:30:33 GMT -6
Speaking of plugs, anyone liking that PSP Avedis E27? Thinking about picking it up on this new sale.
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Post by Guitar on Oct 15, 2016 13:28:11 GMT -6
A couple cool newish plugins on my radar are the Lindell 254E, Neve compressor emulation, and the Softube Summit Audio Grand Channel, tube channel strip emulation. I tried them real quick a few weeks ago and they both sounded pretty special.
I agree that it's pretty easy to have way too many plugins, and I don't think they are very easy to sell, at least I've never even tried to sell one.
Summing amp is a great move, I would recommend that to anyone recording live ensembles. Every time I use mine the mix just seems to magically "wake up." Like the digital mix buss was somehow adding a layer between the music and the listener. Very strange, but very audible on most material. By very audible I mean subtle I guess, but something a well seasoned listener with good monitoring will be able to hear quickly.
Adding a nice line amp on the mix bus gets pretty close, does something anyway, but I found analog summing to add a little more width and depth to the stereo image.
Honestly if you have 2 channels of really nice mic pres, I would think that the DIY Recording Equipment SB2 Passive Summing Mixer kit would do the job for $49, even though it's not sexy and "high end." It is essentially identical to the Roll Music Folcrom if that makes it sound any better.
The only reason I don't use my summing mixer on every mix is that the routing and workflow is slightly annoying to set up.
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Post by indiehouse on Oct 15, 2016 15:10:59 GMT -6
A couple cool newish plugins on my radar are the Lindell 254E, Neve compressor emulation, and the Softube Summit Audio Grand Channel, tube channel strip emulation. I tried them real quick a few weeks ago and they both sounded pretty special. I agree that it's pretty easy to have way too many plugins, and I don't think they are very easy to sell, at least I've never even tried to sell one. Summing amp is a great move, I would recommend that to anyone recording live ensembles. Every time I use mine the mix just seems to magically "wake up." Like the digital mix buss was somehow adding a layer between the music and the listener. Very strange, but very audible on most material. By very audible I mean subtle I guess, but something a well seasoned listener with good monitoring will be able to hear quickly. Adding a nice line amp on the mix bus gets pretty close, does something anyway, but I found analog summing to add a little more width and depth to the stereo image. Honestly if you have 2 channels of really nice mic pres, I would think that the DIY Recording Equipment SB2 Passive Summing Mixer kit would do the job for $49, even though it's not sexy and "high end." It is essentially identical to the Roll Music Folcrom if that makes it sound any better. The only reason I don't use my summing mixer on every mix is that the routing and workflow is slightly annoying to set up. Man, I want to try a Silver Bullet. Looks cool as hell.
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