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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 11, 2016 10:23:41 GMT -6
Popmann makes a good point. I've used a 66' Super reverb, and it was super rich and super clean. The 60's Bassman was a different story, dirty and nasty. You can hear a little of that kind of difference in the comparison above, but it was more pronounced.
I may be mistaken, but I think the original Marshall was based on the Bassman circuit.
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Post by ragan on Sept 11, 2016 12:03:46 GMT -6
I'm not John (obviously) but I'd say either the 65 or 68 Deluxe Reverb reissues. I love those things, especially the 68. Here's a really well done shootout between the two. I wish all amp comparisons were done this way. Anyone else find i comical that as the guy in the video claims "same mic position is used" that the mic gets bumped and the position moves as he's swapping amps out? Ha. Hadn't caught that. Pretty tiny bump but still funny.
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Post by ragan on Sept 11, 2016 12:11:06 GMT -6
I don't think those sound similar at all....AND they're playing pedals to get the little hair they have. That tone also isn't close to clean. I mean, that's a 100wt Plexi on 6.....do we just keep letting drop D squarewave paste tone define "dirty" and keep pushing that to the right? It's hard to not make political commentary....a vintage Fender is CLEAN. They define clean with the 60s Blackface. They "fixed the glitch" of the Tweeds distorting....which Marshall took and ran the other direction with. ? Having trouble understanding what you're talking about. What do any of these Fender's have to do with "drop D squarewave"? Also "60s Blackface" isn't a single amp. Some are clean, some aren't. Half of Tom Petty/Mike Campbell dirty tones are little Princeton's and such dimed. Some of the best OD you'll hear.
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Post by jazznoise on Sept 11, 2016 13:03:03 GMT -6
His point is about the relative use of the word "distortion". Real clean is a Fender amp set to about "3" on the volume/gain. Once you start to hear any thickening, it's not "clean". Particularly in the bro world of Hard Rock and Heavy Metal the term clean is used as shorthand for when you can still hear more than 2 notes being played at the same time.
I keep the gain pretty low for my stuff. The fuzz tone on the opening track is a Rat into a slightly dirty amp, volume is high but the gain is nearly all the way down.
I've used a 1x12 since always because that's what I have, and I don't fancy hauling anything heavier around. Plugged it into a Behringer 4x12 at a gig 2 months back and the sound was amazing - the best on stage sound we ever had. I've since opened the back of the cab and that's improved the sound, but I keep thinking back..
Our other guitarist uses a 2x12, Fender Champ 100. Sounds great to me.
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Post by ragan on Sept 11, 2016 13:36:24 GMT -6
I gues I missed something. Seems like we were talking about classic Fender tones/YouTube of a couple Fender-y sounds yada yada yada and then all the sudden something something PEDALS something something DROPPED D something something POLITICAL...
Somewhere along the way I lost the scent!
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Post by popmann on Sept 11, 2016 15:12:54 GMT -6
There are no driven vintage Fenders. Granted, ALL tube amps lose their shit in the last quarter of their power capabilities. If you mean some of them lose their shit and SUCK, thus you deem them "clean" while some break up i na lovely musical way when they are pushed into losing their shit....sure--but, all vintage fenders are cleaner than vintage Vox and Marshalls. Both at 10 and at 3.
The pedals is reference to all those "classic fender" clips posted, the guy is stepping on drive pedals....the original account of Wendy's track is using a TS9 to drive the CLEAN amp....BECAUSE, no Fender never made amps that drive well. Again--everything tube loses it's shit when it's dimed out. So, if you mean some of the BF Fenders drive well when you dime them--sure. So does everything. But, if doesn't take a lot for an EF86 to start to saturate up....and a tone stack WITHOUT the mid dipped as far as a BF Fender will always have less preamp headroom, thus drive faster. In fact, the ones that DO "drive better" are the ones that either use a higher value for the midrange resistor or give you a knob to dime out.
The Drop D is in reference to calling the original track "clean"....in reference to no one ever making a cleaner (tube based) amp than a Fender BF Twin....and YET....every year someone loops ANOTHER 12ax7 into a preamp and even combine silicon diode to clip further to push what gets heard as "dirty" or "distorted" or "driven" further and further into that set. Which DOES in fact make the original clip "clean" by comparison--but, not by comparison of vintage amps.
the political reference is that in American politics, the same thing has happened over my lifetime....the right has push further and further right, so that now Reagan's policies nearly word for word are literally being championed by two democratic candidates in a row and being called "socialist" and things tossed around like "liberal agenda"....I f'n WISH--But, I really try to respect JK's desire to not be political here--so, that's just explanation of what I meant by that.
Anyway....I'm a bit of an amp geek. Sorry if I waded too far. Suffice to say, if you want a similar level of dirt as that clip, you don't need a vintage Fender. Which it wasn't anyway. But, more than her account of using the Hot Rod pushed with a TS9--I literally use that tune as a tone tester for distortion (be it amp or pedal)---because, it's tricky to need that much dirt to have the sustain and bark yet retain enough definition for the open chorus arpeggios....the account says she did it with multiple tracks/settings. I can do it with one--because I'm picky about amps.
As a player, I LIVE in what I heard Tim Pierce call "distortion tones that 'read as' clean"....it's the hardest to really nail. Particularly when you're living there for RHYTHM guitar where you need more touch sensitivity and the overtones of chords to "ring right"....he was playing a Divided By 13 BTR23 when he mentioned it...a company who makes killer amps that do just that so well.
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Post by ragan on Sept 11, 2016 15:26:39 GMT -6
There are no driven vintage Fenders. Granted, ALL tube amps lose their shit in the last quarter of their power capabilities. If you mean some of them lose their shit and SUCK, thus you deem them "clean" while some break up i na lovely musical way when they are pushed into losing their shit....sure--but, all vintage fenders are cleaner than vintage Vox and Marshalls. Both at 10 and at 3. The pedals is reference to all those "classic fender" clips posted, the guy is stepping on drive pedals....the original account of Wendy's track is using a TS9 to drive the CLEAN amp....BECAUSE, no Fender never made amps that drive well. Again--everything tube loses it's shit when it's dimed out. So, if you mean some of the BF Fenders drive well when you dime them--sure. So does everything. But, if doesn't take a lot for an EF86 to start to saturate up....and a tone stack WITHOUT the mid dipped as far as a BF Fender will always have less preamp headroom, thus drive faster. In fact, the ones that DO "drive better" are the ones that either use a higher value for the midrange resistor or give you a knob to dime out. The Drop D is in reference to calling the original track "clean"....in reference to no one ever making a cleaner (tube based) amp than a Fender BF Twin....and YET....every year someone loops ANOTHER 12ax7 into a preamp and even combine silicon diode to clip further to push what gets heard as "dirty" or "distorted" or "driven" further and further into that set. Which DOES in fact make the original clip "clean" by comparison--but, not by comparison of vintage amps. the political reference is that in American politics, the same thing has happened over my lifetime....the right has push further and further right, so that now Reagan's policies nearly word for word are literally being championed by two democratic candidates in a row and being called "socialist" and things tossed around like "liberal agenda"....I f'n WISH--But, I really try to respect JK's desire to not be political here--so, that's just explanation of what I meant by that. Anyway....I'm a bit of an amp geek. Sorry if I waded too far. Suffice to say, if you want a similar level of dirt as that clip, you don't need a vintage Fender. Which it wasn't anyway. But, more than her account of using the Hot Rod pushed with a TS9--I literally use that tune as a tone tester for distortion (be it amp or pedal)---because, it's tricky to need that much dirt to have the sustain and bark yet retain enough definition for the open chorus arpeggios....the account says she did it with multiple tracks/settings. I can do it with one--because I'm picky about amps. As a player, I LIVE in what I heard Tim Pierce call "distortion tones that 'read as' clean"....it's the hardest to really nail. Particularly when you're living there for RHYTHM guitar where you need more touch sensitivity and the overtones of chords to "ring right"....he was playing a Divided By 13 BTR23 when he mentioned it...a company who makes killer amps that do just that so well. Well, Deluxe Reverbs/Champs start breaking up at like 4 but as to the other stuff, ok, I have a better idea of where you're coming from.
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Post by jazznoise on Sept 11, 2016 15:48:53 GMT -6
Tbf the Bassman also distorts in a really nice way. But yeah, as said, extremely clean in comparison to a Vox. I've played the AC4 (single ended, loads-of-fun combo), the AC15 and AC30 and all are pretty filthy when pushed. Just wish 30's weren't so finicky..
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Post by ragan on Sept 11, 2016 16:13:50 GMT -6
Tbf the Bassman also distorts in a really nice way. But yeah, as said, extremely clean in comparison to a Vox. I've played the AC4 (single ended, loads-of-fun combo), the AC15 and AC30 and all are pretty filthy when pushed. Just wish 30's weren't so finicky.. All true. Bassmans (Bassmen?) are filthy, literally and figuratively. Played one for years. I've got an AC15 and an ever rotating cast of Fender amps. They (Fenders) aren't gritty and wonderfully sandpaper-y like a Vox but many if not most of them have plenty of dirt on tap if you want it.
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Post by swurveman on Sept 11, 2016 16:26:56 GMT -6
I don't think those sound similar at all....AND they're playing pedals to get the little hair they have. That tone also isn't close to clean. I mean, that's a 100wt Plexi on 6.....do we just keep letting drop D squarewave paste tone define "dirty" and keep pushing that to the right? It's hard to not make political commentary....a vintage Fender is CLEAN. They define clean with the 60s Blackface. They "fixed the glitch" of the Tweeds distorting....which Marshall took and ran the other direction with. ? Having trouble understanding what you're talking about. What do any of these Fender's have to do with "drop D squarewave"? Also "60s Blackface" isn't a single amp. Some are clean, some aren't. Half of Tom Petty/Mike Campbell dirty tones are little Princeton's and such dimed. Some of the best OD you'll hear. ...and that squarewave tone got pushed to the right a long time ago..... LOL Back to cabinets and tone - the Matchless DC30 is a cool open backed 2 x 12 with a nice clean/chimey sound till you get to about the 12 noon position on the volume knob. No reverb though. Expensive compared to the Deluxe reverb reissues.
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Post by swurveman on Sept 11, 2016 16:41:06 GMT -6
There are no driven vintage Fenders. Granted, ALL tube amps lose their shit in the last quarter of their power capabilities. If you mean some of them lose their shit and SUCK, thus you deem them "clean" while some break up i na lovely musical way when they are pushed into losing their shit....sure--but, all vintage fenders are cleaner than vintage Vox and Marshalls. Both at 10 and at 3. The pedals is reference to all those "classic fender" clips posted, the guy is stepping on drive pedals....the original account of Wendy's track is using a TS9 to drive the CLEAN amp....BECAUSE, no Fender never made amps that drive well. Again--everything tube loses it's shit when it's dimed out. So, if you mean some of the BF Fenders drive well when you dime them--sure. So does everything. But, if doesn't take a lot for an EF86 to start to saturate up....and a tone stack WITHOUT the mid dipped as far as a BF Fender will always have less preamp headroom, thus drive faster. In fact, the ones that DO "drive better" are the ones that either use a higher value for the midrange resistor or give you a knob to dime out. The Drop D is in reference to calling the original track "clean"....in reference to no one ever making a cleaner (tube based) amp than a Fender BF Twin....and YET....every year someone loops ANOTHER 12ax7 into a preamp and even combine silicon diode to clip further to push what gets heard as "dirty" or "distorted" or "driven" further and further into that set. Which DOES in fact make the original clip "clean" by comparison--but, not by comparison of vintage amps. Anyway....I'm a bit of an amp geek. Sorry if I waded too far. Suffice to say, if you want a similar level of dirt as that clip, you don't need a vintage Fender. Which it wasn't anyway. But, more than her account of using the Hot Rod pushed with a TS9--I literally use that tune as a tone tester for distortion (be it amp or pedal)---because, it's tricky to need that much dirt to have the sustain and bark yet retain enough definition for the open chorus arpeggios....the account says she did it with multiple tracks/settings. I can do it with one--because I'm picky about amps. Nice post popman. Since you use "My Favorite Mistake" as tone tester for distortion, you may be interested in this clip. Wendy is now using a Tele with what looks like a Bassman combo. Could be wrong about the Bassman, but it's some kind of Fender combo. The other guitar player is using a Matchless combo. It looks like SC was going for that Robert Palmer "Addicted To Love" backup band black top. heh
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Post by Ward on Sept 11, 2016 17:49:15 GMT -6
Having trouble understanding what you're talking about. What do any of these Fender's have to do with "drop D squarewave"? Also "60s Blackface" isn't a single amp. Some are clean, some aren't. Half of Tom Petty/Mike Campbell dirty tones are little Princeton's and such dimed. Some of the best OD you'll hear. I have been led to believe that much of their tones came from Vox amps. From their interviews, such as 2006: And this quote from the wikipedia article about the AC30: And there have been many other articles I've read and interviews I've heard.
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Post by ragan on Sept 11, 2016 18:17:33 GMT -6
Having trouble understanding what you're talking about. What do any of these Fender's have to do with "drop D squarewave"? Also "60s Blackface" isn't a single amp. Some are clean, some aren't. Half of Tom Petty/Mike Campbell dirty tones are little Princeton's and such dimed. Some of the best OD you'll hear. I have been led to believe that much of their tones came from Vox amps. From their interviews, such as 2006: And this quote from the wikipedia article about the AC30: And there have been many other articles I've read and interviews I've heard. Yes. Lots of Vox, especially up until about Hard Promises or so. Also lots of Fender.
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Post by popmann on Sept 11, 2016 19:47:13 GMT -6
I would actually say the amp she's accounted in the earlier article--wasn't that a Hot Rod Deville? That looks the same....it's more likely that was her amp during that period.
I found NO better match to the tweed bassman circuit than a black box Marshall Bluesbreaker pedal. I've owned two over the years....a 90s 59 RI of Fenders (with the blue Jensens) was actually my only amp for many years....and a Holland 4x10 with Eminence alincos and a reverb AMP tied to one of the four speakers....had a Victoria version for comparison briefly.
Takes drive pedals like a champ.
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Post by popmann on Sept 11, 2016 20:05:32 GMT -6
But, also--Wendy's tone is WAY cleaner on that clip than the record. You can tell when she does the little "chink" up strokes. That should clip and "sing"....it doesn't in that live....it sounds great--don't get me wrong--she got someone else there with a Matchless or whatever and humbuckers to add the dirty grind.
Thing is--a modern boutique "british" amp will do that record tone at any volume you want. Be it a KT88 like the Divided by 13 BTR23.....or EL84s like Matchless Lightning 15 or any number of DrZ amps--that guy's amps with 6x6 tubes still sound pretty british....or my buddy builds a single ended single EL34 that's like a 12wt Plexi....there are just SO many amazing amps being made now--and none to nearly none carry the NAME "Fender". That Holland and Victoria walked all over the Fender Reissue....my little Fralin VVT beats the shit out of most single speaker Fender reverb combos I've played--there are exceptions....I once got to play through a particularly wonderful BF Twin that I wished I could've bought....they've made some great ones--those days are gone, though. Even Marshall has started making hand wired point to point amps again....their Astoria line is lovely--if WAY overpriced compared to boutique competition, but I guess they have that build quality AND the name, right?
Power scaling. Post Phase Inverter Master volume
Wouldn't buy an amp in 2016 without one of the two.
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Post by ragan on Sept 11, 2016 20:36:30 GMT -6
But, also--Wendy's tone is WAY cleaner on that clip than the record. You can tell when she does the little "chink" up strokes. That should clip and "sing"....it doesn't in that live....it sounds great--don't get me wrong--she got someone else there with a Matchless or whatever and humbuckers to add the dirty grind. Thing is--a modern boutique "british" amp will do that record tone at any volume you want. Be it a KT88 like the Divided by 13 BTR23.....or EL84s like Matchless Lightning 15 or any number of DrZ amps--that guy's amps with 6x6 tubes still sound pretty british....or my buddy builds a single ended single EL34 that's like a 12wt Plexi....there are just SO many amazing amps being made now--and none to nearly none carry the NAME "Fender". That Holland and Victoria walked all over the Fender Reissue....my little Fralin VVT beats the shit out of most single speaker Fender reverb combos I've played--there are exceptions....I once got to play through a particularly wonderful BF Twin that I wished I could've bought....they've made some great ones--those days are gone, though. Even Marshall has started making hand wired point to point amps again....their Astoria line is lovely--if WAY overpriced compared to boutique competition, but I guess they have that build quality AND the name, right? Power scaling. Post Phase Inverter Master volume Wouldn't buy an amp in 2016 without one of the two. I just sold a couple different Dr Z rigs in favor of an AC15, a Super Sonic 22 and (on the way) a 68 Deluxe Reverb RI because they get me "better" tones. Goes to show it's all in the ear of the beholder.
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Post by popmann on Sept 11, 2016 23:35:07 GMT -6
Super Sonic seems like a flexible cool little amp, indeed.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 3, 2016 0:27:45 GMT -6
First, I don't trust internet "shootouts" - especially those on YooToob, which has the worst lossy digital compressio9n on the internet.
Second, I'd look for an original chrome face Deluxe Reverb. Or a new kit versioon of the AB763 DR.
The new Fenders are PC board construction and not as good as the originals.
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Post by Ward on Nov 3, 2016 6:31:31 GMT -6
Here's the 65 reissue doing (I think) some Marshall Tucker, or something from that tone school. Pretty impressive imo. I'm 99% certain that's his covering Oasis's 'Champagne Supernova'.
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Post by jimwilliams on Nov 3, 2016 10:10:54 GMT -6
I use a pair of modified 1965 Showman heads, a 1966 Deluxe reverb jacked to 80 watts and my Basson Sound 125 watt stack and a 2x12 "Bluesbeaker" style 125 watt Basson combo amp.
I mic all of them here. All Eminence speakers, V128's, Governors, M12B's etc. The 4x12 cabs are rated at 500 watts each, blowout proof. The fender amps are all reworked, 6550 tubes in the Deluxe, 6CA7's in the Showmans and Basson amps, my favorite power tube. I use large psu filter caps, these are all silent in use.
I've been playing since I was 10 back in 1963. I've been reworking my amps since the 1970's in pursuit of my sounds. The Basson amps I designed myself for them, it's my "perfect" amp design, at least for me.
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