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Post by chazman on Aug 15, 2016 12:47:38 GMT -6
Gents,
Background:Been making beats for 20+ years on hardware samplers. In the old days it was line level stereo outs to 4-Track. Then Mackie board to ADAT and/or Reel. For the last few years it's been SP1200 (8x individual outputs) to RME UCX > Cubase.
Started becoming interested in the sonic possibilities of high-quality mic pres/channels like API, CAPI, Neve clones, etc. At $500-800/channel with the nice pre-amps would run a pretty penny. Being that samplers are essentially line-level outputs, therefore theoretically a pre-amp isn't required. However after geeking out on all the GS threads on the subject, the thought of adding some warmth and transients to the equations might be really cool. Now, most guys are actually using them for mic sources which I KNOW makes a huge diff. But what about with sampled sources?
Question: Would running SP1200 channels (already 12bit gritty) through nice pre-amps make a huge difference to the presence/feel of the mix down?
Thanks in advance for any and all feedback/thoughts!
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Post by Ward on Aug 15, 2016 12:59:37 GMT -6
You need extremely clean transparent recoding paths for this.
I'd recommend the Grace preamps. Directly into your converter inputs.
Because you can dirty it up or 'color' it later. But getting a high resolution sample into your DAW or sampler first would give you greater long-run flexibility. Dirtying it up on the way in just limits the possibilities. You can always run the outputs of a track using those samples THRU a dirty preamp or guitar amplified later and re-amp. And mic, and fuzzy things up that way.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 15, 2016 13:33:43 GMT -6
I would have actually suggested a pair of VP28s with Litz transformers. Heft and can color if you push them.
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Post by chazman on Aug 15, 2016 13:51:12 GMT -6
John, Thanks for the reply. That's what I was leaning towards or the FD312s. But clips online I preferred the VP28. But speaking to my question above, what are your thoughts on how significant it would impact a sampler line-level signal that was already professionally recorded and then sampled from vinyl at 12-bit. I know lots of my fav hip-hop albums were recorded on consoles which I assume were used to "beef" up the sound and add color. It's just that it's prob a $6-7K investment, so trying to be pragmatic about the decision  |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 15, 2016 14:09:38 GMT -6
John, Thanks for the reply. That's what I was leaning towards or the FD312s. But clips online I preferred the VP28. But speaking to my question above, what are your thoughts on how significant it would impact a sampler line-level signal that was already professionally recorded and then sampled from vinyl at 12-bit. I know lots of my fav hip-hop albums were recorded on consoles which I assume were used to "beef" up the sound and add color. It's just that it's prob a $6-7K investment, so trying to be pragmatic about the decision Got some samples of your sounds? Do you feel that they're lacking? |
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Post by chazman on Aug 15, 2016 14:22:38 GMT -6
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Post by drbill on Aug 15, 2016 14:44:22 GMT -6
Question: Would running SP1200 channels (already 12bit gritty) through nice pre-amps make a huge difference to the presence/feel of the mix down? Thanks in advance for any and all feedback/thoughts! Yes, huge difference IMO. I'm biased, but THIS is exactly what you need.... store.louderthanliftoff.com/products/silver-bullet-drbills-stereo-tone-ampAPI, Neve, Program EQ, etc.. Multiple trips thru this box is giving me what I need. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 15, 2016 15:18:43 GMT -6
Yeah. Silver bullet might work great for this application.
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Post by chazman on Aug 15, 2016 15:30:20 GMT -6
Correct me if I am off-base here, but the advantage of individual mic pres would be per channel control of the saturation vs the summing/toneamp which would apply the "color" to the stereo mix (like compressor per channel vs on bus)? That being said, if budget was not an issue (relatively speaking) I assume most would prefer the latter for the moire granular control?
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Post by joseph on Aug 15, 2016 15:37:21 GMT -6
I always run synths/drum machines through Electrodyne 501s, but I imagine Silver Bullet and CAPIs would be great too.
Also recommend getting an SSL type compressor if you don't have one.
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Post by winetree on Aug 15, 2016 15:45:01 GMT -6
If you don't want to go the preamp cost there are some other options.
Buy an inexpensive mixer. I've seen some inexpensive Yamaha discrete mixers for sale.
A step-up transformer could be another option. It'll add some color and boost the level.
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Post by chazman on Aug 15, 2016 16:03:24 GMT -6
I always run synths/drum machines through Electrodyne 501s, but I imagine Silver Bullet and CAPIs would be great too. Also recommend getting an SSL type compressor if you don't have one. Read a lot of guys like those DBX 560A on HH drums...What models are you fond of? |
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Post by drbill on Aug 15, 2016 16:22:14 GMT -6
Not a huge fan of the 560A's. IMO they don't really impart color, and I'm not a huge fan of the way they compress. That's me. They are cheap though, and I have some, although they are generally the last thing I reach for. I just use em for a little "lite control" compression. For HHop drums, I'd go into 1176 territory... I like the serpent splices, but most any 1176 box will get you into that zone.
As far as mono vs. stereo mic pre's vs tone boxes, etc., you can use em both for tracking mono / stereo / buss / mix buss applications. It's all about how you use them and your workflow. I helped LTL design them because I was not happy with the work flow of using mic pre's for something they were not designed for. I used vp28's and Neves for quite awhile, but the gain staging options for tweaking were just not there for me. Plus, I wanted EQ built in (Neve had that, but too heavy handed for my uses) and gain staging options, recall options, and metering along with (especially) CASCADING.
IMO, what it sounds like you're after is the old school console gain staging coloration of working on a console with big iron, and that's what the SBullet is designed to do. It wasn't designed as a mic pre, although it can be used as one. I have them on individual tracks as well as the mix bus itself, and often on the drum buss or other busses. I also track analog synths / samplers thru them. The more trips thru the iron, the more it starts to sound like old school production sonics.
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Post by chazman on Aug 15, 2016 16:37:29 GMT -6
IMO, what it sounds like you're after is the old school console gain staging coloration of working on a console with big iron, and that's what the SBullet is designed to do. It wasn't designed as a mic pre, although it can be used as one. I have them on individual tracks as well as the mix bus itself, and often on the drum buss or other busses. I also track analog synths / samplers thru them. The more trips thru the iron, the more it starts to sound like old school production sonics. Bill, I like the sound of the SB. I currently have a pristine Otari MX-5050 BIII I am going to be mixing next project onto, so this might be a nice touch to add some mojo prior to tape. Lots to ponder. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 15, 2016 18:02:40 GMT -6
So I don't know a lot about this stuff, but I think using some additional samplers or adding some digital stuff would go further for your productions than a bunch of preamp would. These tracks sound like mostly single hits for the kick and snare (in guessing). It seems like most of the stuff today is stacking a few kicks to make a single sound and the same for snare/clap stuff. Stacking the samples and heavier use of compression as effect would be much more beneficial in my opinion. |
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Post by drbill on Aug 15, 2016 18:05:39 GMT -6
IMO, what it sounds like you're after is the old school console gain staging coloration of working on a console with big iron, and that's what the SBullet is designed to do. It wasn't designed as a mic pre, although it can be used as one. I have them on individual tracks as well as the mix bus itself, and often on the drum buss or other busses. I also track analog synths / samplers thru them. The more trips thru the iron, the more it starts to sound like old school production sonics. Bill, I like the sound of the SB. I currently have a pristine Otari MX-5050 BIII I am going to be mixing next project onto, so this might be a nice touch to add some mojo prior to tape. Lots to ponder. BTW, I said earlier I didn't like 560A's right? LOL I just put one on kind of a techno-ey sounding hi hat and it worked great. Go figure...... LOL No rules. PS - now you've got me missing my SP1200.... <sigh> |
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Post by chazman on Aug 15, 2016 19:22:03 GMT -6
PS - now you've got me missing my SP1200.... <sigh> I have a pair andalways reading to spring on more when I see a deal. NOTHING compares to the lush, crunchy, sound of slowed-down samples in that thing. I worked on EPS/ASR for decades, not knowing how The Shocklee Bros and others were getting the sound they were. Turns out it was one, modest 10-sec sampler. |
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Post by chazman on Aug 15, 2016 19:34:14 GMT -6
So I don't know a lot about this stuff, but I think using some additional samplers or adding some digital stuff would go further for your productions than a bunch of preamp would. These tracks sound like mostly single hits for the kick and snare (in guessing). It seems like most of the stuff today is stacking a few kicks to make a single sound and the same for snare/clap stuff. Stacking the samples and heavier use of compression as effect would be much more beneficial in my opinion. Appreciate the feedback and while I am not looking to compete with the kids these days, it is indeed an interesting idea for drums. With the SP1200, you are limited by sample time and available channels, so doubling up on a kick or snare could render you with very little avail space to add the melodic elements. Obv you could bus and mix down and replay but I am n old dog when it comes to composition |
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Post by joseph on Aug 15, 2016 22:10:36 GMT -6
I always run synths/drum machines through Electrodyne 501s, but I imagine Silver Bullet and CAPIs would be great too. Also recommend getting an SSL type compressor if you don't have one. Read a lot of guys like those DBX 560A on HH drums...What models are you fond of? Well, aside from a real G384, a Smart C1 does the job (grittier than C2), or turbo mod GSSL, SB4001, TK Audio BC1. There are several good clones, all with a different flavor. I suppose you could also look at DBX 160X for kicks and snares. |
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Post by yotonic on Aug 15, 2016 22:30:35 GMT -6
Of course it makes a big difference. If you've been making beats for 20 years then you must have recording artists whose sounds you've benchmarked. Obviously, because the SP1200 is a very specific sound and not a cheap unit by any means.
Nonetheless if you were influenced by low tech hip hop it all went out the window when the Dust Brothers and Daft Punk hit the scene. All of those artists have been using high end preamps (Neve 1081) for years. But much of that has to do with the fact that most of those artists have been making their own records for years in their own studios. Today "it might" be a waste of money for you if you aren't releasing records, simply because you could hit a local studio and mix down through their Neve sidecar or send your tracks away to have this done.
Beat based music whether it's house, pop, or hip hop relies heavily on the quality of bass and drum sounds. Skimping there is like a country artist using a Parker guitar for their aoustic parts - fail. Buy a Neve DPD 2 channel preamp with built-in digitl converter and run your drum tracks through it, it will make you a happy writer. Also only use analog gear there's enough rompler garbage out there to burn a hole in the ozone layer.
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Post by ragan on Aug 15, 2016 22:32:32 GMT -6
Quick shoutout to the Chameleon Labs 7720. I have two now and find them friggin great.
I got interested in them after noticing that a producer I know uses 7720's a lot even though he has the actual comp sitting in the middle of his SSL desk.
I think they're tremendous bang for your buck. Drums, pianos, guitars, across the 2 (obviously).
For general color, I have a little RAMSA WR S208 that I like for just running channels through to vibe them up. Picked it up for next to nothing (like $50). Definitely a good cheap way to round some sounds out.
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Post by chazman on Aug 15, 2016 23:21:36 GMT -6
Of course it makes a big difference. If you've been making beats for 20 years then you must have recording artists whose sounds you've benchmarked. Obviously, because the SP1200 is a very specific sound and not a cheap unit by any means. Nonetheless if you were influenced by low tech hip hop it all went out the window when the Dust Brothers and Daft Punk hit the scene. All of those artists have been using high end preamps (Neve 1081) for years. But much of that has to do with the fact that most of those artists have been making their own records for years in their own studios. Today "it might" be a waste of money for you if you aren't releasing records, simply because you could hit a local studio and mix down through their Neve sidecar or send your tracks away to have this done. Beat based music whether it's house, pop, or hip hop relies heavily on the quality of bass and drum sounds. Skimping there is like a country artist using a Parker guitar for their aoustic parts - fail. Buy a Neve DPD 2 channel preamp with built-in digitl converter and run your drum tracks through it, it will make you a happy writer. Also only use analog gear there's enough rompler garbage out there to burn a hole in the ozone layer. |
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Post by kilroyrock on Aug 16, 2016 7:31:57 GMT -6
I like tracks 3,4,6,7 chazman - Being a teenager in the 90's I have a place in my heart for lo-fi big snare beats with the 2and kicks. |
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Post by chazman on Aug 16, 2016 12:41:24 GMT -6
I like tracks 3,4,6,7 chazman - Being a teenager in the 90's I have a place in my heart for lo-fi big snare beats with the 2and kicks. Thx man! |
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Post by john on Aug 16, 2016 13:17:57 GMT -6
getting the vinyl into the sampler I recommend the radial phono pre. super clean and lots of detail. from a technic 1200 with a shure cartridge of course. much better fidelity than a dj mixer in my opinion. occasionally I use an mpc to arrange my own recordings. basically sampling myself. I run the 8 outputs into my racks of hardware and mix on the ssl x-desk. the difference is insane. after spending my whole teenage life making beats and wondering how they made it sound so amazing when my sampler sounding so whimpy its easy to hear what all the hardware is doing. I would recommend looking at the Neve 511 which can operate at line level. it has the silk feature for adding extra umph, a useful filter and sounds soooo good. its also one of the most affordable 500 series pres out there. I recently mixed some beats for a guy producing on the sp1200 and he was very happy with the results and difference from his references. it still had the grit but it went from narrow and thin to wide and in your face  |
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