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Post by NoFilterChuck on Aug 16, 2016 18:43:45 GMT -6
Pretty nuts storm hitting bronx/west Chester and CT right now. I've never seen so much lighting from here in brooklyn.
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Post by westom on Aug 17, 2016 7:34:17 GMT -6
Isolated ground is a completely different animal from service and equipment ground. Nobody said anything about an isolated ground. Apparently you have never seen these devices and how 'layered' grounding is done. Irrelevant here. Since described was how to have best protection. How it is achieved in facilities that cannot have damage. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Protector in a sub-panel accomplishes no effective protection if it does not make a low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connection to that area's single point earth ground. Any other incoming wires to that same area (ie phone, TV cable, intercom) must also be earthed to that subpanel's earth ground. Either directly or via a protector. All that is unnecessary. Same money put into upgrading the service entrance grounding would be more effective. Never assume a protector is a layer of protection. It is not. A protector is only a connecting device to what is and defines that layer of protection. Described were a 'primary' and 'secondary' protection layer. Consumers are best advised to inspect or upgrade those well proven solutions. Each layer of protection is defined by what does protection - earth ground. Safety codes do not define what is necessary. Since codes only address human safety issues. Even disconnecting (ie throwing a breaker) is clearly less effective and unreliable.
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Post by aremos on Aug 17, 2016 9:16:00 GMT -6
Dear Westom (or anyone that is an authority on the subject), Being a musician with extremely limited time (& very limited technical understanding) is it possible to gather a synopsis (or some type of visible outline - chart) of what you recommend ... Some type of protocol on what works & what device(s) specifically apply to such protection(s)? Because after reading these 4 pages, I'm still a little perplexed. Pardon my ignorance, but the matter (style) in which this subject has been dealt with here should be left for philosophical, theosophical type discussions. Please give me a direct, simple chart on how to deal with this problem of safety for my equipment that ends up costing around a "dollar/device". Thanks, Ariel
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Post by drbill on Aug 17, 2016 12:02:55 GMT -6
Ariel - I'm no expert, but I can pretty much assure you that you're not going to get simple, direct, CORRECT info on what to do in your specific situation on this thread. Best to consult with an master electrician that has built studios, knows how to deal with star grounds, and is certified. Or a studio consultant who designs and specs out studios like Jeff Hedback. You can't trust the internet for this type of information. Too many "experts", not enough experience. Just reading thru it's probably obvious,. Good luck. Proper wiring and protection is critical - especially if you live in an area that warrants it.
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Post by M57 on Aug 17, 2016 13:54:40 GMT -6
Advanced apologies to any lawyers out there who may be rightly insulted but I couldn't help myself - How can you tell the difference between an electrician and a lawyer? Answer: You can't. But seriously, I get it. Nature's electrical outbursts are incredibly powerful destructive and unpredictable. I'm the creator of this thread and about 60 or so posts ago, I gave up trying to understand. Anyway, here's my takeaway regarding how to best protect the modest home studio ..that you don't rely on for your livelihood. - Unplug your equipment. Save for a direct lightning strike that burns your house to the ground, this method works as well if not better than some of the most expensive professional systems out there. Cost: $0 per piece of equipment. Yes, the downside is that you can't use your equipment. (I just know some buzzkill is going to point that out.)
- Use a surge protector and consider replacing it every few 'events.' I never got what I thought was a clear answer to the question but maybe that's because there isn't one. So for now my understanding is that there is some (albeit a small amount) of added protection from augmenting the protection already in your equipment by using additional surge protectors (i.e. in series), and replace them on occasion. The components used in surge protectors degrade with use over time. Not all SP are the same, but given that the amount of added protection is minimal, I'm going for one that lets me know that the protection is on and functional.
That's all I got for now. Thanks everyone for playing.
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Post by drbill on Aug 17, 2016 14:08:18 GMT -6
3. Blow off recording and go back to acoustic based instruments such as acoustic guitars, piano, drums, horns, etc.. problem solved. :-) 4. Move somewhere there are no storms. 5. Research it out, do the best you can, throw some money at it, forget about the "possibilities" and just-make-music. (This is my solution....)
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Post by keymod on Aug 17, 2016 15:38:37 GMT -6
I suppose I should be flattered for being grouped into the same category as a lawyer...... Or am I the one that should feel insulted??? I can tell you the big difference - they bill out at about six to ten times more per hour than I can, and they always get paid. And when I need to use one to help me get paid, they get most of the money................... Here I thought I was providing welcomed clarification of some of the topics being discussed. A lawyer would have charged you for every word.
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Post by drbill on Aug 17, 2016 16:03:18 GMT -6
Here I thought I was providing welcomed clarification of some of the topics being discussed. keymod - your info is solid and really the only (IMO) informed and qualified info on this thread. Thanks much!!!! <thumbsup>
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Post by M57 on Aug 17, 2016 17:25:10 GMT -6
I suppose I should be flattered for being grouped into the same category as a lawyer...... Or am I the one that should feel insulted??? I can tell you the big difference - they bill out at about six to ten times more per hour than I can, and they always get paid. And when I need to use one to help me get paid, they get most of the money................... Here I thought I was providing welcomed clarification of some of the topics being discussed. A lawyer would have charged you for every word. Yeah - I was just trying to make a funny. I do appreciate all contributions to the thread. It was just that the conversation was circular at times, and the professionals seems unwilling give specific advice ..like a simple model number. That's all I really wanted, and I'm pretty sure I was clear about that because others even felt the need to reiterate my question, and more than once. Compare and contrast that to when it comes to recommending specific gear around here - No one hesitates. Hell, you can't get some of us to stop. Why can't we all be as passionate about the lowly surge suppressor?
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Post by westom on Aug 17, 2016 22:14:16 GMT -6
... is it possible to gather a synopsis (or some type of visible outline - chart) of what you recommend ... Some type of protocol on what works & what device(s) specifically apply to such protection(s)? Do you have a protocol or synopsis to buy bread? It is this hard. Walk into any big box hardware store or electrical supply house. Ask for a 'whole house' protector. Read its specification number. Does it claim at least 50,000 amps? Now you are an expert. You just bought the best 'whole house' protector. Because it is as complicated as buying bread. How many also need a model number to buy bread? Should a doubt exists, then post it here with a relevant number. Not all electricians understand this stuff. For example, low impedance came with expressions such as less than 3 meters. Simply observe what he does. If he violates that simple 10 foot rule, then assume he only learned safety codes; knows nothing about studio and appliance protection. No protocol or synopsis required. Relevant reasons why (previously posted) separates many uninformed master electricians from the fewer who really know how to install this stuff. Best 'whole house' protectors sell like bread. Brand name is irrelevant. It is called a 'whole house' protector. It has one key spec number. It is that simple.
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Post by formatcyes on Aug 18, 2016 0:34:36 GMT -6
westom you clearly have never worked in the electrical industry, There are 2 professionals posting here keymod and myself (I have 3 trades Electronics, Electrical. and Telecommunications) I have been on the ground with multi million dollar systems and no expense spared lightening protection systems. There is no such thing as a "whole house' 100% proof system NONE. I have seen lightening protection systems blown across the room along with the rest of the equipment whole blocks where everything connected to the communications cable's where fried. How is your whole of house protector going to stop a surge if it comes thu your internet connection? I am not going argue with you anymore as you clearly don't know what you are posting about.
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Post by westom on Aug 18, 2016 7:10:54 GMT -6
westom you clearly have never worked in the electrical industry, There are 2 professionals posting here keymod and myself (I have 3 trades Electronics, Electrical. and Telecommunications) I have been on the ground with multi million dollar systems and no expense spared lightening protection systems. You are only a technicians. We designed these solutions even 40 years - even long before PCs existed. And often fixed mistakes by technicians who never grasped relevant concepts - because somehow they just knew better. Nobody said anything about 100% protection. Please read what is written; not what you want to see. We also saw protection systems destroyed. We fixed those defective systems installed by techs who just knew because they were electricians. Or because they had been installing systems defectively for years. Again, telco switching centers suffer 100 surges with each storm. Why do they not need four days to replace that switching computer? Because direct strikes without damage is routine. But only when one learns simple science; does not assume wiring experience makes one an expert. Explained was well proven science. It never changes because you 'feel' it must be wrong. Routine is direct lightning strikes without damage when one first learns what does protection. An example of what they did so that direct lightning strikes no longer created damage - only fixed defective earthing: www.copper.org/applications/electrical/pq/casestudy/florida911.htmlOr another professional who actually learned this stuff rather than blindly denying it: You can choose to learn or just deny what has been well proven solutions for over 100 years. Only the emotional would deny well proven science. Damage from a direct strike means one made a mistake. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. Then hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly outside. Denying it (while not even knowing what impedance is) does not change reality.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 18, 2016 21:15:51 GMT -6
From what little I've read of this thread, it feels very Gearslutz ish.
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