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Post by swurveman on Jul 31, 2016 8:42:59 GMT -6
When I mix a snare, whether it is real drums or something like Superior Drummer, my snare sound is a combination of the dircet mics on the snare, the overheads and the room mics. However, I see these pots at the purple site asking about snare samples that sound like {...insert producer name here.}
So, my question here is: Does anybody here just use ambient snare samples, instead of using room mics while subsequently using a HPF on the overheads to get rid of the snare and only use the OH's for for cymbals?
If so, what sample pack are you using?
I can see this as a quicker way of working. And as more people complain to me about how expensive it is to mix (makes me want to puke) I have to consider spending less time mixing.
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Post by svart on Jul 31, 2016 9:17:19 GMT -6
Some of the big boys will use samples as part of the drum sound, some will use them only for the attack, or tail of the sound, while others will only use samples as the source for reverb sends and not actually add the sample to the snare itself.
That distinction is rarely made on the forums when folks talk about "samples" on snare.
I assume by "ambient snare", you mean using the snare sample as reverb/ambience source, but not actually mixed in with the snare track?
I personally don't use samples, and my OH's rarely have much HPF on them. I usually get mostly snare strainer sound in my OH anyway, though. Then again, I also hit-align my drums too. That makes a HUGE difference in tone by aligning all the drum tracks on a hit basis. If you zoom in on the tracks you'll notice that there is more delay on tracks with mics that are further from the sources, like OH mics will have much more delay than the snare mic. I'll go in and nudge the tracks so that the snare hit on the OH tracks matches with the close snare mic. I do the same with the kick and toms, matching them with the OH tracks. Because the hits happen at different points in the cycle in relation to the timing of each track, you can have phase issues, even if the overall relative polarity is the same.
On the other hand, a lot of guys will track snare-only hits on the snare mic and maybe overheads/rooms, and later use them as their own samples, sans kit bleed. They might either do full replacement, or supplementation, but since it's the actual drumset, you get a sound that is pretty genuine.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 31, 2016 12:59:18 GMT -6
The kick sound in the OH is always part of my blend. Rare for me to have a HPF over 100 on OH. I have never heard a situation where you could HPF the OH and lose the snare either. Seems impossible.
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Post by swurveman on Jul 31, 2016 14:56:42 GMT -6
I assume by "ambient snare", you mean using the snare sample as reverb/ambience source, but not actually mixed in with the snare track? I mean a snare that is sampled with the the room sound or reverb processing as a part of the sound. So, when you place the sample on the grid, or trigger it, you hear a snare sound that is the sum of overheads/room mics. I just saw a tutorial on Drumagog and their samples do have the choice to add ambiance through an overhead and room sample that was recorded with the close mic sample.
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Post by noah shain on Jul 31, 2016 14:57:12 GMT -6
Good info y'all! Good thread.
Depending on the style of music and where I need the mix to end up I might use a couple or 3 samples for different things. I might have a dry sample with some tone and/or note to it that I can use to bolster or extend the note of the snare. This sample might be eq'd and gated like a close mic snare. I often low pass as far down as 10k and cut some of the honk. I might use a tight and dry sample for attack only. Short note. I might have another sample or a mult of a sample like those for distortion/saturation (really style dependent).
I might add a sample with a long decay, like a reverb or room tail on it. The Clearmountain samples are still killer for this. Samples are always mono for me. If I want width I go to room Mics or FX.
Then the samples might get (probably will) get blended in to the various parallel compression busses also.
I don't think I've ever hi passed the overheads much above 100hz. Usually lower.
I do almost always cut a lot of 400-1k out of overheads to get rid of the boxy honk of the snare. Usually hitting the snare close mics and samples with some cuts in those areas too.
For me it all varies a lot depending on style.
We shouldn't leave out cool mono room smash mics for snare sound. More and more they're a part of my snare sound when I'm the tracking engineer too.
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Post by Ward on Aug 1, 2016 7:12:17 GMT -6
If you have a particularly distasteful sounding snare in the tracking process, or tracks you receive, or it sounds particularly gross in the overheads, you may have to resort to Noah's method or others.
Don't forget the old eraser method too though!
Duplicate the snare track, flip it out of phase, put a 5-7ms delay on the out of phase track, then make a mix of just the overheads and the OOP snare, mixing in the snare until it disappears, and then use that mixed stereo track instead of the overheads in your actual mix.
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Post by ragan on Aug 1, 2016 10:21:23 GMT -6
If I want less of the snare in the OH I usually just put a send in the snare track and then stick a nice clean comp on the OH track with the sidechain set to the snare send. Duck it out of the way and then bring the sample(s) up until the dance of the two sounds good.
Cytomic's "The Glue" is my usual choice for the ducking.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2016 13:27:26 GMT -6
Yes all the time, I generally have two samples on the kick and snare, one dry and one room sound. Sometimes they're of the kit I recorded but lately I enjoy mixing and blending different stuff in. I'm using Room Sound's samples a lot because I find they blend very well with my recordings. So at mix down I'll have a Kick In, Kick Sub, Kick Sample 1 and a Kick Sample 2 and the same will go for the snare, the toms I'm just starting to blend room samples into, I haven't ever gone that route in the past but I'll update this as I use it more. What it allows me to do is create a tighter and brighter ambience that doesn't have all the wash of the cymbals, basically just solo the room samples and then blend up the rooms into it. Once I have a blend I like of the room samples and room mics I just group the faders and leave them.
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Post by drbill on Aug 1, 2016 14:01:13 GMT -6
Is it passe to just record a kit well and use what you recorded without samples?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2016 14:38:52 GMT -6
Is it passe to just record a kit well and use what you recorded without samples? Dumb comment here.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2016 14:40:31 GMT -6
If you have a particularly distasteful sounding snare in the tracking process, or tracks you receive, or it sounds particularly gross in the overheads, you may have to resort to Noah's method or others. Don't forget the old eraser method too though! Duplicate the snare track, flip it out of phase, put a 5-7ms delay on the out of phase track, then make a mix of just the overheads and the OOP snare, mixing in the snare until it disappears, and then use that mixed stereo track instead of the overheads in your actual mix. Never heard of this, gonna try this out next time
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Post by drbill on Aug 1, 2016 15:03:08 GMT -6
Is it passe to just record a kit well and use what you recorded without samples? Dumb comment here. Are you talking about yours or mine. Mine was a serious question. I know what the answer for me is. I'm curious as to others take on it, cause it sure sounds that way....
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Post by svart on Aug 1, 2016 15:37:21 GMT -6
Is it passe to just record a kit well and use what you recorded without samples? It took me about 12 years to finally be happy with choosing and positioning the right mics, picking the drums, heads and tuning, and finally find the right preamps, set the right levels and other stuff that we are required to master to get a decent drum sound.. Or today's engineer can just take the 10 minutes to thumb through some samples and pick the drums they want to hear.. As with anything in life, technology makes things easier, faster and cheaper, but we also lose the knowledge and finesse little by little. Nothing is free. Again, I don't personally use samples, for the above reasons, but I won't begrudge someone for using them either.
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Post by drbill on Aug 1, 2016 16:02:27 GMT -6
I'm not begrudging anyone anything - I just want to know know the consensus on why people here are using "samples". Is it because you can't get a good sound from the drummers / studios you use, don't know how to mic/process the sound you hear in your mind-but can easily grab a sample that matches your muse, you tend to get crappy drum sounds delivered to you and you need to use samples to get a good sound up to your standards - OR - (as I suspect) is it because samples are the sound you're specifically after. Cause (IMO) samples being triggered don't sound like a real drummer in a real room with good mic-ing technique. They have a unique sound of their own that - to greater or lesser degree - takes away from the immediacy of a drummer playing his kit live. Which can be better or worse depending on what you're after. Curious here.....
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Post by ragan on Aug 1, 2016 16:56:05 GMT -6
I'm not begrudging anyone anything - I just want to know know the consensus on why people here are using "samples". Is it because you can't get a good sound from the drummers / studios you use, don't know how to mic/process the sound you hear in your mind-but can easily grab a sample that matches your muse, you tend to get crappy drum sounds delivered to you and you need to use samples to get a good sound up to your standards - OR - (as I suspect) is it because samples are the sound you're specifically after. Cause (IMO) samples being triggered don't sound like a real drummer in a real room with good mic-ing technique. They have a unique sound of their own that - to greater or lesser degree - takes away from the immediacy of a drummer playing his kit live. Which can be better or worse depending on what you're after. Curious here..... I use samples because I want it to sound a certain way and that helps me get it there. It's not new. People have used samples (triggered or just performed) for decades. You can make it sound super drum-machine-y or you can just tuck something in to augment the thump of a kick or smack of a snare. My attitude is, who cares? Sometimes a kit with 2 mics is just what the doctor ordered, sometimes 20 mics gives you what you need. Just do what you need to do to get the sonics where you want 'em.
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Post by drbill on Aug 1, 2016 17:05:34 GMT -6
Thanks for your perspective. Appreciated.
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Post by rowmat on Aug 1, 2016 17:31:49 GMT -6
I'm not fond of samples but if the drummer doesn't have a decent sounding kit and there's little or no time available to make it a lot better then samples are sometimes a necessary evil in these days of no budget.
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Post by drbill on Aug 1, 2016 17:47:50 GMT -6
Do you guys who sample replace / add find that it takes the life out of the performance? Personally, I can usually hear it a mile away, and understand when you're dealt a bad hand with crappy sounding drums, but I'm running across guys who replace the snare and kick just as standard procedure - even when the unreplaced drums sound awesome beforehand.
Recent example : had a producer tell me the drums we tracked recently surpassed his wildest hopes, and that they were so much better than the big name NVille studio he tracked his last project at. Specifically told me that he absolutely LOVED them (and he's a drummer go figure). 2 months later I hear the song - Snare and Kick were replaced, and the kit no longer "breathed" and as a result the song felt totally "static" and lifeless because of it. But man, those drums sounded BIG and PERFECT and CONSISTENT!!!
Now, I'll admit to being sensitive to subtitles and find a lot of the life in them. It's one of the reasons I like smaller intimate orchestras, or projects where everything isn't doubled. (Where appropriate). And vocals where the lead is not doubled or tripled or worse.... But it seems consensus is bigger is always better, and more is always more..... Thoughts??
Sorry if this is derailing swerve's thread. I'll start another if more appropriate....
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Post by Randge on Aug 1, 2016 18:23:50 GMT -6
It happens a lot here. Mixers don't want to spend time mixing as their clients don't want to pay for it and labels many times want a certain snare sound that sounds like a current hit on the radio and dictate that to the mixer. So, to speed up the process, they use samples that get the job done faster and they can wrap that mix an hour or more ahead of schedule. If I use samples, it's never more than 30% or so to make the sounds punch more. I believe that's how they were intended to be used correctly.
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Post by rocinante on Aug 1, 2016 19:30:43 GMT -6
I'm not gonna begrudge an up and coming hip hop or folk artist becaue thry dont have a drummer. Honestly ive run into a lot of them and recorded and mixed entire albums full of drums with artists that dont even have a drummer in their live set. Its about getting what they have in their head out. Personally i use a real drummer with a significant part of the drums resampled as well as some songs completely organic with no samples and a good chunk of tunes that were done completely in SD. Convenience, style, soundscape all come into play. Really in the end its what sounds best.
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Post by noah shain on Aug 2, 2016 1:02:58 GMT -6
Samples are just another tool in the box. Lean on em too hard and your work might suffer...Like most of our tools.
Snare samples are a given for most of the mixers I know. The tricks and techniques involved in using them are discussed similarly to any other, "recorded" drum element.
FWIW I'm far more likely to use them on tracks I recorded but again it's genre dependent.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2016 11:05:38 GMT -6
Reading this with interest as an amatuer mixer. I can perhaps understand a band getting picky for a certain drum sound, but I've never known anyone ever to dislike a track due to the snare sounding "wrong". It always seems to be those in the biz that focus on this aspect, although I'm probably just showing my mixing niaevity here (however you spell that word!). What about an electronic kit played "live" - would this record less well than a live kit due to the room element?. Just curious.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2016 11:29:18 GMT -6
Are you talking about yours or mine. Mine was a serious question. I know what the answer for me is. I'm curious as to others take on it, cause it sure sounds that way.... What's passe to you might not be to someone else, for me, my name has to go on the product at the end of the day and if the drummer can't hit properly I'm going to use samples to make it sound like he can. If I'm recording in a 10x10 room that has no natural ambience I'm absolutely going to use room samples of million dollar rooms I can't afford to book. If the drummer plays his hats low and they're leaking into the snare really bad there's no placement choices I can make that are going to minimize that, it might be best to use a sample to add the top end of the snare I want without the leakage. Notice none of these scenarios have anything to do with not knowing how to aim a mic or tune a drum. Are guys who slap Slate's snare 10 over everything fake tit connoisseurs? Yeah pretty much and I think it's passe to reduce everything down to presets but that's just my opinion. There are guys who make music that lots of people love with those tools. Anytime a kit gets mic'd up I make a sample pack of it for use later at mix down should I need it. For my purposes samples are making up for less than great performances and adding ambience to the kit I can't achieve in my room. At the end of the day if you can't make the song come off the speakers the way the band envisions it nobody is going to care that you didn't use samples they're just going to be bummed out.
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Post by drbill on Aug 2, 2016 11:31:46 GMT -6
It's interesting to note that with as much advancement as electronic kits have made over the last 15 years, every drummer that I know that has been "forced" to play one because of live sound issues hates it. They just can't get the feel and subtlety they can from a real kit. Kind of like asking a race car driver to drive a mini-van. IMO, sample replacement is no different unless ghosted under the real deal, and at that point, you're not really changing the sound of the real kit - just beefing it up ala Randge's comments on how he does it. All this is in reference to achieving a realistic live sound, not an electronic or heavily processed sound. If you're looking for THAT sound, then that's a different ball game - which was kind of what I was after in my initial question. Are those of you who consistently replace going for a different affected sound, or just trying to fix problems? Personally, if going for an affected sound, I'd rather use loops or programmed drums. But that's again my personal opinion.....
Is there any sample replacement software that has 15-20 layers of dynamics with ability to trigger ghost notes on the snare, flams, etc? Or libraries that offer that amount of detail for sample replacement?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2016 11:42:30 GMT -6
It's interesting to note that with as much advancement as electronic kits have made over the last 15 years, every drummer that I know that has been "forced" to play one because of live sound issues hates it. They just can't get the feel and subtlety they can from a real kit. Kind of like asking a race car driver to drive a mini-van. IMO, sample replacement is no different unless ghosted under the real deal, and at that point, you're not really changing the sound of the real kit - just beefing it up ala Randge's comments on how he does it. All this is in reference to achieving a realistic live sound, not an electronic or heavily processed sound. If you're looking for THAT sound, then that's a different ball game - which was kind of what I was after in my initial question. Are those of you who consistently replace going for a different affected sound, or just trying to fix problems? Personally, if going for an affected sound, I'd rather use loops or programmed drums. But that's again my personal opinion..... Is there any sample replacement software that has 15-20 layers of dynamics with ability to trigger ghost notes on the snare, flams, etc? Or libraries that offer that amount of detail for sample replacement? Not going for a different sound then what I mic'd up usually, I'm typically just wanting proper rimshot on the snare and if the drummer doesn't know how and can't be taught to then I'm replacing soft to medium hard hits with rimshot of the snare we recorded in tracking. I never use replacement software and use a macro in Cubase to lay one shots over the real drums.
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